Subaru coolant conditioner... yes or no?

[Scubaboo]

Well, since literally all of their products are in the same container, some of them blue, some black, etc., that tells you absolutely, positively nothing.

 

Lol I didnt even say anything, just posted it to add to the discussion. Funny how some of you are wound up pretty tight over this

 

Anyway, I dunno, it tells me some things. First, that the super duper special magic coolant conditioner is a Holts product?

 

Another thing is to look inside, and see what Holts product it resembles, and it may tell us what it is or at least give a clue what it is?

Edited June 25, 2021 by Scubaboo
Speling and gramer

[Scubaboo]

Case closed then. Everyone knows the shape of the container dictates what's inside. I'm sure most people have seen that so little chance this is news to anyone.

 

I'm glad to have helped you reach your conclusion!

 

You're welcome!

[Plastixx]

Another thing is to look inside, and see what Holts product it resembles, and it may tell us what it is or at least give a clue what it is?

 

The MrSubaru1387 video I posted at the beginning of this thread clearly demonstrates that they are the same thing. If it looks like a duck and smells like a duck...

 

 

I also linked to a single post at vwvortex forum where someone got direct confirmation from Subaru, which conveniently got glossed over...

 

https://www.vwvortex.com/threads/subaru-coolant-conditioner-clogged-my-radiator.5603480/post-76187657

 

Not sure why this is even still up for debate. Argue the merits of using it all you want, that doesn't change what it is. What it isn't is some super secret Subaru high tech miracle juice that they have so graciously bestowed upon owners because they really deeply care about them and want their engines to last forever.

[mwiener2]

Wait WHAT?! You are basing your claim of the conditioner making a mess of the coolant system on your experience of working on cars circa 2010. The blue coolant didn’t start until ~2009 and in 2010 you probably were dealing with the actual EJ motor with headgaskets issues.

 

Blue coolant first appeared in the Legacy with the 2008 model year. There seemed to be a mid year switch as some 2009 WRX's are green and some are blue. By 2010, everything is blue.

 

Not sure what your point is here. I have been professionally working on cars since 2009. I was involved with modifying them as a hobby and spent countless "research" hours on the forums starting in 2004. I'm as much as an expert on Subaru high performance as you can get until you join the factory rally team.

 

I have worked on thousands of Subaru's. I have seen hundreds that are blown up, some catastrophically. None of them would have been saved by the conditioner, none of the failures were directly caused by the conditioner. Any that had conditioner in them, were obvious they had it. It makes a really big mess of the cooling system.

 

 

It's very obvious if a car has the conditioner or not. They do NOT come from the factory with conditioner.

 

I am not a general mechanic. I only do performance work and have been for over 13 years. I see different issues than the dealerships normally do.

When I was just starting, I added the conditioner to almost every vehicle. After a few years and seeing the cars come back all gunked up, I stopped using it to no ill effects.

 

I do not know any professional Subaru mechanic that would recommend using the conditioner on a turbo Subaru, especially on the performance side of things.

 

The conditioner has been confirmed to be a stop leak type product. Any pro will tell you to stay far away from products like this.

 

This is really not a debate. DO NOT USE THE CONDITONER

 

DrD123 - You're wrong about closed system corrosion. Oxygen has to be present for corrosion to happen. This is why boats and planes at the bottom of the sea can be preserved for 100's of years. There is very little oxygen at deep depths. The engine cooling system is also not 100% aluminum. There are plenty of steel parts touching water.

[moral hazard]

The first Subaru I bought was a 2008 2.5i with a slight headgasket leak, I decided to ask the local dealer for some coolant conditioner (out of curiosity, not expecting it to do much for me), the parts guy did not know what it was. After further explanation, it was found to not be in stock and unable to be ordered.

 

Several years later I ended up working at another Subaru dealer, again no mention of using this stuff in the service department.

 

I'm in Australia, it gets hot here. Surely if the coolant conditioner was anything truely helpful, we'd see widespread use here.

Edited June 25, 2021 by moral hazard

[DrD123]

I do not know any professional Subaru mechanic that would recommend using the conditioner on a turbo Subaru, especially on the performance side of things.

yeah - when it comes to long term reliability, I'll go with a manufacturer who actually pays the price when things fail over a mechanic - sorry - they design and have to guarantee long term reliability of the system. Subaru, the manufacturer and one standing behind the vehicles, is recommending it in every single engine they have produced for 20+ years.

DrD123 - You're wrong about closed system corrosion. Oxygen has to be present for corrosion to happen. This is why boats and planes at the bottom of the sea can be preserved for 100's of years. There is very little oxygen at deep depths. The engine cooling system is also not 100% aluminum. There are plenty of steel parts touching water.

Nice try - you absolutely, positively do not need dissolved oxygen to support corrosion of aluminum in water - you only need the water (water reduction will support aluminum corrosion just fine). Plus, in a system with other reactive species in it, there are other cathodic reactions besides oxygen reduction which would likely play a major role, anyway. Without delving into solution chemistry and flow rates, suffice to say there are other things going on in the ocean, and absolutely you have heavy corrosion of both iron and aluminum in the ocean, even deep (there's always a heavy corrosion product layer when things are recovered). Delving further into your nonsense, coupling aluminum to other metals, particularly more noble materials like steel - is particularly bad - without isolating the materials electrically, or using proper inhibitors, significant galvanic corrosion of the aluminum will result - again you need no dissolved oxygen for it to go - the water is plenty. (if you want more info, pick up pretty much any corrosion textbook and read)

[DrD123]

Lol I didnt even say anything, just posted it to add to the discussion. Funny how some of you are wound up pretty tight over this

So if you weren't posting the image to suggest they were the same product because they were both in a blue container from Holts, why exactly did you post it?

First, that the super duper special magic coolant conditioner is a Holts product?

so? You thinking subaru makes any of their chemicals? oil, coolant, etc.? Not likely - almost all are going to go to a manufacturer that does that sort of thing, and order up something that fits the bill for what they need. In this case, Subaru used holts, who makes a variety of their own products - it's certainly possible the conditioner is one of those, and equally possible it's a custom blend of stuff - without data, we don't know.

 

Another thing is to look inside, and see what Holts product it resembles, and it may tell us what it is or at least give a clue what it is?

Pretty much all modern engine oil looks very similar out of the bottle - is it all the same? You really need something more quantitative than a visual assessment to answer the "is it the same" question.

[DrD123]

Not sure why this is even still up for debate. Argue the merits of using it all you want, that doesn't change what it is.

Not arguing if it's good or bad, or debating anything, really. Simply indicating Subaru says as step one for every single engine they make is to add coolant conditioner when replacing the coolant. That's a strong statement from a company that has a lot to loose if they screw it up. Trying to find actual data to support that it's helpful or not, and can't seem to get past a couple folks continuously spouting opinions about why it's bad, and that it has to be a specific Holts product because some youtube guy said it was.

What it isn't is some super secret Subaru high tech miracle juice that they have so graciously bestowed upon owners because they really deeply care about them and want their engines to last forever.

Is anyone saying that? Subaru is definitely saying you are supposed to add it whenever you change the coolant in every engine they make - every single one. In terms of does Subaru care about their customers, I would think any manufacturer that values brand loyalty, etc. cares quite a bit about their customers.

 

If the chemistry of the conditioner isn't proprietary, please, provide the data! Opinions (biased or not) are great, but ultimately just that. Data actually answers the question - be it empirical evidence of damage caused by the conditioner, or benefits brought by the conditioner, or analytical data showing it's the same as whatever product your internet person says it is. (in your video, they even point out it's a different size container - so with the radweld, you add twice as much to a system as subaru wants you to add of the conditioner, apparently)

[nevets27]

Taking a wild guess here but I don't think the data you are looking for exists out in the world. (Analysis of both liquids)

 

It would take someone interested enough to do some tests. You seem to fit that bill. So why not purchase both and find out?

 

If this is to decide if you should use it in your vehicles then the result from the test would hopefully be worth it, so you can make a sound decision on what you think this best for you.

[Scubaboo]

So if you weren't posting the image to suggest they were the same product because they were both in a blue container from Holts, why exactly did you post it?

so? You thinking subaru makes any of their chemicals? oil, coolant, etc.? Not likely - almost all are going to go to a manufacturer that does that sort of thing, and order up something that fits the bill for what they need. In this case, Subaru used holts, who makes a variety of their own products - it's certainly possible the conditioner is one of those, and equally possible it's a custom blend of stuff - without data, we don't know.

 

Pretty much all modern engine oil looks very similar out of the bottle - is it all the same? You really need something more quantitative than a visual assessment to answer the "is it the same" question.

 

I'm with you, I dont know what's in it exactly. Pic shows they have the same bottle. A peek inside will show they look pretty similar. They act the same way. I have my own conclusion. But notice I never pushed a conclusion in that post.

 

That pic is just another data point. Everyone is free to read into it as they will.

 

I'm well aware Subaru outsources their fluids and a lot of other parts to dedicated manufacturers. A lot of lubes are said to be from Idemitsu, for example. Coolant, green was said to be from Peak.

 

Now, from Peak or whoever, is their any mainstream coolant manufacturer (and the assumption is Subaru gets their coolant from Peak or similar competent manufacturer) that makea a coolant that requires a "conditioner"? By all accounts, most modern coolants aside from Dexcool are great at what they do. And it doesnt look like its Dexcool, no sludge of death problems. Thats another thing to consider.

 

A lot of people run without the conditioner with no adverse effects (including me). There are reports (one tech here in this thread too), saying they cause problems. I had problems I attribute to it on my previous SG9 and stopped using the conditioner. Sample of one so I dont push it on others, my personal choice.

 

The conditioner can have been modified, very possible, and will need a lab test to ascertain. I totally agree. But it does have that stop leak action that has caused problems for me. And any additional benefit is outweighed by that, seeing that modern coolants as a whole are very good at what they do within their service period, as verified for myself by my own testing with and without conditioner.

 

Oil is the same but different. Stop leak and the conditioner may be the same but different. But what I see it does just doesnt make semse to me personally so I stopped using it. But if you uncover something special about it, I have an open mind.

 

At the end of the day your car, your choice.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Scubaboo

[mwiener2]

Pretty much all modern engine oil looks very similar out of the bottle - is it all the same? You really need something more quantitative than a visual assessment to answer the "is it the same" question.

 

Yes!! 90% of oils on the market are the same with different labels on them.

 

 

Oxygen is required for corrosion on planet earth. Are there special cases where it is not? Yes. Is your engine one of them? No.

Edited June 30, 2021 by mwiener2

[RWebb]

This might go down as best thread of FY21Q2. Today is the last day for voting.

[DrD123]

Oxygen is required for corrosion on planet earth. Are there special cases where it is not? Yes. Is your engine one of them? No.

Sorry - been on vacation for 3 weeks in New England

 

You absolutely, positively do not need oxygen for corrosion to go - you need

1. an anode/anodic reaction - that's the corrosion/oxidation reaction

2. a cathode/cathodic reaction - that's the reduction reaction that supports the oxidation reaction (here's a spoiler - oxygen reduction is just 1 of a gazillion different possibilities)

3. an electrical path between the anode and cathode (these can be separate regions on the same metal surface, or in the case of galvanic corrosion, will be the electrical contact between the two parts, and why electrical isolation is key when dissimilar metals are used together)

4. an ionic path between the anode and cathode (that's through the coolant, in this case)

 

for the oxidation reaction, please try and remember that oxidation refers to a positive change in the oxidation state of the metal (so from Al metal to Al(3+) as an example

 

for the cathodic reaction, you can reduce dissolved oxygen (tends to be dominant reaction in aerated aqueous solutions) or you can reduce water, or reduce ions in solution (e.g., the hydronium ion is usually the one in acidic solutions, can also be reducing other metal ions in solution, organic ions in solution, etc. - there are a myriad of potentials, depending on what happens to be thermodynamically viable in the solution)

 

So once again, unless you live in some screwed up fantasy land, you do not need oxygen for corrosion to go, or for oxidation to take place (again - oxidation doesn't mean forming an oxide) and inside your engine absolutely, positively is a place where you can get corrosion without any dissolved oxygen - you only need the water (reduce the water - H2O + e- -> H + OH- - often referred to as the hydrogen evolution reaction, or HER)

 

Why you are suggesting it's a "special case" where oxygen isn't needed for corrosion is beyond me - perhaps pick up a corrosion text and do some book learnin'

 

Working on cars does not even kinda sorta prepare you for a debate on corrosion science. (your comments sort of scream Dunning-Kruger effect... just sayin')

[DrD123]

It would take someone interested enough to do some tests. You seem to fit that bill. So why not purchase both and find out?

If I were in grad school, I would definitely take some liberties with the analytical equipment in the lab and do so - hell, I probably could have convinced my advisor it was a good idea and done so with their blessing - however, running personal stuff at work is more than sort of frowned upon.

It gets annoying when you have so many folks that are just going "don't use it because it's a bad idea" or "I know it's the same as product x because... well, I just know" and so on. Lots of hypotheses/stories that are more or less compelling depending on who tells them, but zero hard data.

[busyychild]

It gets annoying when you have so many folks that are just going "don't use it because it's a bad idea" or "I know it's the same as product x because... well, I just know" and so on. Lots of hypotheses/stories that are more or less compelling depending on who tells them, but zero hard data.

 

 

Let’s not throw stones, it goes both ways. We (the public) have no hard data to support either position. We only have the recommendation requirement of the OEM and anecdotal evidence.

 

 

Updated for accuracy

Edited July 18, 2021 by busyychild

[DrD123]

Let’s not throw stones, it goes both ways. We (the public) have no hard data to support either position. We only have the recommendation of the OEM and anecdotal evidence.

I'm certainly not throwing stones - I was pointing out we had no data to support the assertion that the stuff was bad (only opinions/stories that hypothesize why it's bad), and that all we have was the OEM stating the conditioner is a requirement (they don't list it as optional in any of the service manuals - it's literally step 1, put in the coolant conditioner) - we definitely don't have any info on Subaru's rationale for requiring it, either.

[mwiener2]

DrD123, I really hope you're not a real doctor....

 

 

Definition of oxidation

1: the act or process of oxidizing

2: the state or result of being oxidized

 

Definition of oxidize

transitive verb

 

1: to combine with oxygen

2: to dehydrogenate especially by the action of oxygen

oxidize an alcohol to an aldehyde

 

 

You're telling me we don't need oxygen, but then you use oxygen in your examples of why we don't need it.

 

It gets really annoying when people argue about stuff they don't really know about...

Edited July 19, 2021 by mwiener2

[dgoodhue]

It gets really annoying when people argue about stuff they don't really know about...

 

Yet, here you are still arguing. Case in point, someone using the Webster dictionary to argue chemistry.

[DrD123]

DrD123, I really hope you're not a real doctor....

Seriously? Please do look up the dunning kruger effect, and understand that your level of "knowledge" in corrosion/corrosion science is probably best described as "child-like", or in terms of the D-K effect, you are what they describe as someone who is "incompetent" - I'll even give you a wikipedia article to help you out, since I am guessing mentioning the effect is just whistling right over your head...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Definition of oxidation

1: the act or process of oxidizing

gotta love a definition which uses the word as the definition - those are particularly informative!

 

Since you seem to be fond of google-searching for science, let me help you - here's a high level explanation of redox processes as they might apply to corrosion (it's pretty incomplete, but like I said - I googled you up some knowledge - I even kept it simple for you by limiting the search to 2 words - metal oxidation - and picked something off the first page)

https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/General_Chemistry/Map%3A_Chemistry_-_The_Central_Science_(Brown_et_al.)/04._Reactions_in_Aqueous_Solution/4.4%3A_Oxidation-Reduction_Reactions

It gets really annoying when people argue about stuff they don't really know about...

Exactly - and you just keep on doing it - let me be the first to tell you that you literally know just about nothing when it comes to corrosion/electrochemistry (my basis being your responses above) - you have a child like understanding at best.

 

Let me explain to you what's annoying - when folks whose experience base is literally a short time doing something completely different (you said you've been wrenching for 10 years or thereabouts, so we'll use that as the "short time doing something completely different" - hell, you even bragged about it) feel their basic understanding in that area means they are somehow knowledgeable in another unrelated area, and then try to argue in that area. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

[mwiener2]

First sentence of what you linked to...

 

"The term oxidation was first used to describe reactions in which metals react with oxygen in air to produce metal oxides."

 

OXYGEN IS A REQUIRED CHEMICAL IN THE OXIDATION PROCESS. OXYGEN PRESENCE IS REQUIRED FOR OXIDATION TO OCCUR.

 

 

I thought Doctors went to good schools for long periods of time...

Edited July 20, 2021 by mwiener2

[thefultonhow]

You're telling me we don't need oxygen, but then you use oxygen in your examples of why we don't need it.

 

You know there's a difference between elemental oxygen, which is present in literally every molecule of water (and thus, if water is present, oxidization is possible), and dissolved O2 gas molecules, right?

 

Also, the definition of oxidization in the context of redox has to do with the movement of electrons. Although it primarily happens in the context of elemental oxygen in the real world, that doesn't mean it needs elemental oxygen to occur. See: http://www.chemistry.wustl.edu/~coursedev/Online%20tutorials/Redox.htm for an example with iron and cerium with no oxygen, and another with aluminum, chlorine, and hydrogen, also with no oxygen.

 

Your original statement was that oxidization is not possible in the deep sea because there's not enough dissolved oxygen down there. Besides the fact that this is empirically wrong (there are plenty of rusty shipwrecks at the bottom of the sea), there is plenty of elemental oxygen down there that isn't a dissolved gas, and you don't even need it for oxidation as shown above.

 

This actually is wild that you don't know this. I'm not even an engineer or a Ph.D in physical science. I just paid attention in high school chemistry.

[Alexmed2002]

I'm getting a headache...

[LegGTLT]

Wait.... is this where I can find out more about the power of arguing over the internet?

[RWebb]

Wait.... is this where I can find out more about the power of arguing over the internet?

If you stick your head under water there is enough O2 in the water to breath?

[THE RZA]

Wait.... is this where I can find out more about the power of arguing over the internet?

 

you should PM Tide tell him I sent you.