Subaru coolant conditioner... yes or no?

[LegGTLT]

If you stick your head under water there is enough O2 in the water to breath?

 

There's O2 in water... so yes.

[mwiener2]

Your original statement was that oxidization is not possible in the deep sea because there's not enough dissolved oxygen down there.

 

I said it happens slowly because there is very little oxygen. Not that it doesn't happen at all.

 

For all intents and purposes related to cars, there needs to be oxygen present for the cooling system to corrode. The more you open the system and change fluid, the more oxygen is present and more corrosion will happen.

In a perfectly sealed system, it will corrode until all the oxygen is used up then corrosion will stop.

 

This is how it works in the real world of working on cars... Not in the Wikipedia searches you pulled out your rear.

 

 

 

If you stick your head under water there is enough O2 in the water to breath?

 

Use this. It works great!

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by mwiener2

[thefultonhow]

I said it happens slowly because there is very little oxygen. Not that it doesn't happen at all.

 

That's just blatantly not true though. Seawater is corrosive enough (due to redox, BTW -- lots of free ions due to the salt) that even without air (and thus O2), it corrodes faster than pure water ever would even with air.

 

For all intents and purposes related to cars, there needs to be oxygen present for the cooling system to corrode. The more you open the system and change fluid, the more oxygen is present and more corrosion will happen.

In a perfectly sealed system, it will corrode until all the oxygen is used up then corrosion will stop.

 

That may be (and I don't know enough from that perspective to say one way or another, so I'll take your word for it)... But that's not the statement you made, and then you objected to other people calling you out for your incorrect statements.

 

This is how it works in the real world of working on cars... Not in the Wikipedia searches you pulled out your rear.

 

Link to post I made with Wikipedia searches in it?

[RWebb]

 

Use this. It works great!

 

 

Thats some phantom menace shit right there.

 

[LegGTLT]

Does soap corrode? Asking for an intercooler friend.

[RWebb]

Does soap corrode? Asking for an intercooler friend.

Sandwiches do corrode

[LegGTLT]

Mmmmmm...................... sandwiches!!!

[Scubaboo]

Lulz

[mwiener2]

Do it old school

[thefultonhow]

[RWebb]

Do it old school

Meth injection works

[DrD123]

First sentence of what you linked to...

 

"The term oxidation was first used to describe reactions in which metals react with oxygen in air to produce metal oxides."

Please, child, read the whole article - perhaps pay attention to the statement "Oxidation-reduction reactions are now defined as reactions that exhibit a change in the oxidation states of one or more elements in the reactants by a transfer of electrons" - hell, they even write out a couple of reactions for you (those are the scary looking equation things) - they even have an example where there is zero oxygen needed - iron in an acidic solution. (iron goes into solution as ferrous or ferric ions, depending on the electrochemical conditions - there is no corrosion product on the surface because iron in solution is the stable specie - the cathodic reaction is the hydrogen evolution reaction (reduction of H+ in solution to form H, which recombines to form H2 gas)

OXYGEN IS A REQUIRED CHEMICAL IN THE OXIDATION PROCESS. OXYGEN PRESENCE IS REQUIRED FOR OXIDATION TO OCCUR.

Nope - absolutely not the case. Sorry dude - you literally have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. If you are so intent on proving me wrong, why not pick up a basic corrosion text and do some book 'learnin! (well - or not, since you'll learn that I am right...)

[DrD123]

I said it happens slowly because there is very little oxygen. Not that it doesn't happen at all.

In the cooling system, the corrosion rate might be low because of the corrosion inhibitor package in the coolant... just sayin'

 

 

For all intents and purposes related to cars, there needs to be oxygen present for the cooling system to corrode.

It will corrode just fine without any dissolved oxygen.

The more you open the system and change fluid, the more oxygen is present and more corrosion will happen.

adding dissolved oxygen will give you another cathodic reaction, so absolutely can exacerbate things, but it's not needed. Corrosion of the internals will absolutely take place without oxygen ingress. But hey - let's pull on that string a little - how much oxygen do you suppose gets in when you take the cap off the container? Is uptake and mass transport really fast? Rumor has it some guy named Henry has a law that might help you calculate that sort of thing in part...

In a perfectly sealed system, it will corrode until all the oxygen is used up then corrosion will stop.

Wrong. Sorry.

 

This is how it works in the real world of working on cars... Not in the Wikipedia searches you pulled out your rear.

Seriously, stop talking about stuff which you literally have a child-like knowledge of - read a book - here's a decent intro to corrosion text - get this one

https://www.amazon.com/Corrosion-Control-Herbert-Uhlig-1985-01-18/dp/B01N6KSL2Q

 

 

Seriously

[mwiener2]

Everything you posted involves oxygen.

 

 

I can google for favorable results too.

 

https://vfauto.com/what-causes-rust-in-a-cooling-system/

 

https://www.aa1car.com/library/cooling_system_electrolysis_corrosion.htm

(This one is about what you're trying to prove, but the electrolysis reaction puts oxygen into the coolant which further propagates the corrosion.)

 

I found YOU a book - https://dl.asminternational.org/handbooks/book/26/chapter-abstract/351944/Engine-Coolants-and-Coolant-System-Corrosion?redirectedFrom=fulltext

 

https://www.evanscoolant.com/how-it-works/benefits/no-corrosion/

This one talks about removing oxygen by eliminating water from a cooling system.

 

https://penray.com/resources/cooling-system-tech-facts/metal-corrosion/

Oxygen is the second listed primary source of corrosion.

 

https://www.tat.net.au/pdfs/stories/Corrosion_issue23_Oct2011.pdf

[RWebb]

Everything you posted involves oxygen.

 

 

I can google for favorable results too.

 

https://vfauto.com/what-causes-rust-in-a-cooling-system/

 

https://www.aa1car.com/library/cooling_system_electrolysis_corrosion.htm

(This one is about what you're trying to prove, but the electrolysis reaction puts oxygen into the coolant which further propagates the corrosion.)

 

I found YOU a book - https://dl.asminternational.org/handbooks/book/26/chapter-abstract/351944/Engine-Coolants-and-Coolant-System-Corrosion?redirectedFrom=fulltext

 

https://www.evanscoolant.com/how-it-works/benefits/no-corrosion/

This one talks about removing oxygen by eliminating water from a cooling system.

 

https://penray.com/resources/cooling-system-tech-facts/metal-corrosion/

Oxygen is the second listed primary source of corrosion.

 

https://www.tat.net.au/pdfs/stories/Corrosion_issue23_Oct2011.pdf

You spent 6 days researching google links?

[nevets27]

You spent 6 days researching google links?

Pretty obvious why it took that long to find links that agree with him..... Even the vast internet was hard to find evidence to try to prove a wrong point. I'm actually a bit surprised, usually you can find lots of people agreeing with someone that's wrong.

 

Curious how people think a hot water tank works... That should give you a clue.

Edited July 29, 2021 by nevets27

[DrD123]

Everything you posted involves oxygen.

Nope. Wrong!

I can google for favorable results too.

Ok - seriously, pick any corrosion text - I even showed you a nice one by Uhlig and Revie you could grab on amazon - there are tons more of them out there. Oxidation refers to the change in the valence state of the material being oxidized - the metal being oxidized looses 1 or more electrons, and the specie being reduced gains electrons. You can reduce water, you can reduce hydronium ions in solution, as well as a myriad of other things - you do not need oxygen (dissolved oxygen in solution) to act as your cathodic reaction.

 

Pick up an actual corrosion book, or read a chemistry text, basically any peer reviewed technical resource on the topic - listening to folks that literally have no clue what is going on just isn't helping you.

 

(This one is about what you're trying to prove, but the electrolysis reaction puts oxygen into the coolant which further propagates the corrosion.)

Oh, this will be fun - define the "electrolysis reaction" as used in that article for me, please.

 

I found YOU a book - https://dl.asminternational.org/handbooks/book/26/chapter-abstract/351944/Engine-Coolants-and-Coolant-System-Corrosion?redirectedFrom=fulltext

The ASM handbooks are great - you want to actually read them though. Realistically, 13A would be a better one for you as it deals with the fundamentals. I'll go out on a limb and say you didn't cough up the money to actually read it, though.

 

https://www.evanscoolant.com/how-it-works/benefits/no-corrosion/

This one talks about removing oxygen by eliminating water from a cooling system.

except not in the way you are thinking - they are going to a non-aqueous solution of some sort, which is also a high impedance solution - if you go back to the description I gave you on what you need for a corrosion process to go, in addition to needing an anode (material to be oxidized) and a cathode (surface where reduction is taking place) you need to connect those via both an electronic path (through the metal) and an ionic path (through the solution) - if you can deal with corrosion by eliminating any of those parts - with a high impedance electrolyte, you effectively kill the ionic conduction path, breaking the loop. You can accomplish the same thing with coatings (blocking the surface) and many film forming/adsorbing inhibitors accomplish a very similar effect by adsorbing onto active sites on the active metal surface, effectively coating it.

 

https://penray.com/resources/cooling-system-tech-facts/metal-corrosion/

Oxygen is the second listed primary source of corrosion.

it's one of the things they mention (they actually don't say it's one of the primary things - they say "A number of conditions in a cooling system will affect the degree and rate at which metal surfaces corrode. These include: coolant pH, the concentration of dissolved oxygen and carbon dioxide in a coolant, metal surface deposits, metal stress, coolant temperature, acids formed in the combustion", but you knew that... they list a variety of things, all of which can contribute. Dissolved oxygen is important when it's there as a cathodic reaction (it's thermodynamically viable at lower potentials than many other reactions) but it will be rapidly depleted in a closed system with lots of reactive surface around. Once it's depleted, other reactions will become thermodynamically viable (water reduction, as an example) - you really don't understand corrosion.

https://www.tat.net.au/pdfs/stories/Corrosion_issue23_Oct2011.pdf

That one was just painful to look at! If you want conference papers, there are a number of conderences out there you could pull from (the annual NACE Corrosion conference (though since NACE merged with SSPC, it's going to be the AMPP corrosion conference), eurocorr, MS&T is adding more and more sessions on corrosion - there are tons of them. Also lots of journals to take a look at - there you'll find actual peer reviewed publications, instead of inane marketing crap (there are tons of them - the AMPP Corrosion Journal, Corrosion Science, Electrochimica Acta, Journal of the Electrochemical Society, etc. - there really are tons of them) - you won't usually find introduction to corrosion papers there, though - your best bet are really corrosion textbooks.

[thefultonhow]

You can reduce water, you can reduce hydronium ions in solution, as well as a myriad of other things - you do not need oxygen (dissolved oxygen in solution) to act as your cathodic reaction.

 

And now you're both being stupid.

 

Water and hydronium ions both contain elemental oxygen. So mweiner2 is right that those examples involve oxygen. They happen not to involve dissolved O2 molecules... but he didn't say they did, either.

 

He's wrong that oxidation actually needs oxygen to occur (dissolved or elemental), as I showed, and he's also wrong that dissolved O2 and other molecules with elemental oxygen are at all equivalent... but he's not wrong about your examples having oxygen in them.

[mwiener2]

You spent 6 days researching google links?

 

No. I googled, "Corrosion in a cooling system", and posted the top 6 results.

Impressed you read through them, cause I didn't.

 

Curious how people think a hot water tank works... That should give you a clue.

 

You've never looked inside one. They're brown and covered in rust and corrosion. They probably have a fairly thick layer of gunk on the bottom.

They have an sacrificial anode in them to make them last a little longer.

A residential water heater only has a lifespan of 5 to 15 years. (More expensive models have thicker, better metal and take longer to rust out.)

 

 

Oxygen or not, DO NOT USE THE CONDITONER IN YOUR CAR

Edited July 29, 2021 by mwiener2

[RWebb]

mwiener2 adjective

Save Word

 

 

 

mwiener2 | \ äb-ˈtüs , əb-, -ˈtyüs \

obtuser; obtusest

Definition of mwiener2

1a: lacking sharpness or quickness of sensibility or intellect : INSENSITIVE, STUPID

He is too obtuse to take a hint.

1b: difficult to comprehend : not clear or precise in thought or expression

It is also, unfortunately, ill-written, and at times obtuse and often trivial.

[nevets27]

They have an sacrificial anode in them to make them last a little longer.

 

That should be the clue. BTW, they are supposed to be replaced. If they are replaced before they are ineffective then they it will continue to protect the tank itself and the tank will continue to be fine far past 15yrs. But as with most things people don't ever replace it and therefore the tank will start to rust. Point being, if in this closed system without oxygen being introduced the tank will rust unless there is a sacrificial anode. Sound familiar?

Edited July 29, 2021 by nevets27

[dgoodhue]

No. I googled, "Corrosion in a cooling system", and posted the top 6 results.

Impressed you read through them, cause I didn't.

 

You posted google links that you didn't even read and offered them up as proof to why other guy is wrong

 

You really should take your own advice.

 

It gets really annoying when people argue about stuff they don't really know about...

[thefultonhow]

You posted google links that you didn't even read and offered them up as proof to why other guy is wrong

 

You really should take your own advice.

 

[DrD123]

Water and hydronium ions both contain elemental oxygen. So mweiner2 is right that those examples involve oxygen. They happen not to involve dissolved O2 molecules... but he didn't say they did, either.

Goodness, if you are going to get in on the fun, at least read the whole thread! He said "Oxygen has to be present for corrosion to happen. This is why boats and planes at the bottom of the sea can be preserved for 100's of years. There is very little oxygen at deep depths." - now, maybe I'm over simplifying, but that sure sounds like water is not the problem, dissolved oxygen is, and that he appeared to be aware of the difference...

[DrD123]

They're brown and covered in rust and corrosion. They probably have a fairly thick layer of gunk on the bottom.

They have an sacrificial anode in them to make them last a little longer.

A residential water heater only has a lifespan of 5 to 15 years. (More expensive models have thicker, better metal and take longer to rust out.)

very true - most folks don't realize you should replace the anode periodically (sort of a pain, as it's close to the length of the water heater tank, so if you have the tank mounted such that you don't have space above it to pull the anode an insert a new one, replacement really isn't feasible. Water tanks are often coated on the interior as well, which helps, but as with any corrosion mitigation coating, just buys you time.

DO NOT USE THE CONDITONER IN YOUR CAR

It's the "why" we are looking for here - looking for facts/data, not opinion.