Tehnation Posted November 9, 2019 Share Posted November 9, 2019 op said he has a rough idle, and the people who diagnosed quoted a 13k price... I would get a second opinion first. How do you know it's both the ring and heads, what exactly did they tell you? Get someone else to do a compression test and if that shows negative results do a leak down to see where the air is escaping. Maybe they saw all the mods and made some assumptions. The problem when you are uninformed is you don't even know what to ask, what to look for and where to steer the transaction, you just get lead around by the nose. I know people that don't understand anything about cars but they make sure to ask the right questions and get the right details. 13k..... you can buy two lgts for that price.... For a motor with 200k miles ... you would need to consider: short block rebuilt/new heads oem ocvs master gasket set oil pump timing belt kit w/water pump new/rebuilt turbo spark plugs and/or coil packs air and coolant hoses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus Posted November 10, 2019 Author Share Posted November 10, 2019 op said he has a rough idle, and the people who diagnosed quoted a 13k price You're pretty hung up on this price. Maybe 9k is a lot for a new motor? Again, this is for a new motor, but **** if I know. I did say it always idled slightly rough, but it was getting worse and on my way to the shop it was dying on me when I stopped, so by the time they go their hands on it it was more than just idling rough. I plan on calling another shop regardless. Here is what they said regarding compression after replacing the spark plugs: "It still almost stalls. Compression is good and within spec but is 10 psi low on one side, would like to perform a leak down test on that bank to see if it has a brunt valve" "The leak down test that [tech's name] has performed and double checked leads to a burnt valve and failing piston rings." Then he quotes the new motor+turbo price and labor. Notably, he suggested the other shop I had planned on talking to about this saying, "N.W. Rally sports. . . they do remans and rebuilds" and gives me their number. I'm not convinced that I'm being taken for a ride her necessarily, but I don't' think that getting a second opinion is a bad idea. Since the car as been home I've not tried to start it. is Jegs a good place to buy these crate remanufactured engines? Ah OK this makes more sense. I think there was a thought of you asking what the best option is financially. Which is ditch the vehicle.[/quote Does it make more sense if I'm walking into used but new-to-me car that could end up having who knows what's wrong with it? I'm ok with sinking 5k into it. That's less than I'd likely be spending on a "new" car. If you don't have the money. It depends on what "the money" is, and whether I want to put that money into it. I was partially wanting to know if I was crazy to repair it because something also super expensive (like the*tranny or something) was also likely to go. I'm not interested in putting anywhere near the price I was quoted for the new motor+turbo and labor, but the*closer we get to 5k the more I'm considering it. I actually have the "BRAND new Epic Springs and slightly used (12k miles) Bilstein HD struts come with the car uninstalled. " from the original owner. He said that the Tein Flex adjustable coilovers needed replacing but I've not done so and I've not had any problems, so if I need to replace them I have replacements already. If it matters to anyone this is where I plan on going next to see what they think. https://www.nwrallysports.com is this IAG company going to get me a better product than the Jegs crate engines? (https://www.iagperformance.com/2005-Subaru-Legacy-GT-Staged-Engine-Blocks-s/7216.htm) What's a "closed deck" shortblock? Why does a head need to be "machined? Is that cheaper than buying the longblock? How does one know if the machine shop the head goes to is good or not? So may questions. Sorry guys. I really appreciate everyone trying to guide me through this decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Closed decks are for big power. You don't want that. The semi open (or semi closed I forget) that we have is plenty strong. It has to do with how the block is. If you're looking to stay stock power, a new short block from subaru for $1900 is going to be better than an iag imo. Heads need to be machined to make sure the surfaces properly mate up with the new block. They take off a really small amount to make it properly flat on both sides so you don't get head gasket leaks. This is different than a head rebuild. Head rebuilds are needed (usually) on high mileage turbo subarus due to valve burning issues. Here's the thing. You could do 5k if you do the work yourself. You won't get someone to do it for you for 5k. The other thing with that is I see a 2010 sentra with 62k and a 2012 Malibu with 75k for 6k in the Seattle area on autotrader. I didn't look hard. I mean is your transmission or differentials going to go? Who knows. They DO where out. Have you done a fluid change? It should be done about every 30k. I'll likely just do a 6spd swap when mine goes. Or get a used 5spd cheap and rebuild it myself. 200k is a lot on a car. The level of problems between 200k and 270k on my civic has been significant. Only you can know your piece of mind and desires and income. I can bike to work in 40 minutes or bike to the train. I don't need a daily driver. Do you have a 20 mile highway commute to work? A new engine isn't going to make it a reliable vehicle. They are inherently unreliable. I've decided I'll always tell people to get naturally aspirated cars from now on. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 "The money" is going to be 5k plus labor. Then thoughts about what else it needs. Labor for those struts that will go. What's the condition of your radiator. Don't get me wrong. I love these cars. But I wanted a sporty manual awd wagon. I really only have like 4 options that have been on the market since the mid 2000s and I'm not buying a high mileage audi or bmw so. I plan to keep this car indefinitely. I can fix it. I'm learning to tune it. I have the tools. I'm planning to move at the end of my lease to a place with a garage. I might build a rally car next summer. I have no kids though and a decent job. But that's why it's a hard decision. Imo you need to realize that this isn't a camry that's gonna run 10 years. There's a current thread going that the guy has had to pull the engine 3x in 5k miles. I put mine back together and had leaks and went another week without a car. I mean sure maxcapacity has this magical 300k wagon that never has problems and runs mostly stock stuff but he's the exception. If it were me, and you love the car. I'd sell yours as is and see if boxkita still has one of theirs for sale. You'll likely spend less or as much money and get a better vehicle. I mean if you're gonna put 7k into repairs and can sell it for 2-3k. That's a lot of money to a more reliable car. But we don't know what you need in a vehicle. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 https://www.subarusuperstore.com/engine-rebuilding-landing-page.htm 6300 + tax, shipping and insurance. Plus a new oem turbo for 1500, plus tax and shipping... i guess it does make sense from the stealership, doesn't mean I have to like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 https://www.subarusuperstore.com/engine-rebuilding-landing-page.htm 6300 + tax, shipping and insurance. Plus a new oem turbo for 1500, plus tax and shipping... i guess it does make sense from the stealership, doesn't mean I have to like it! Yea oe new turbos are extremely expensive. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 (edited) Jegs and Summit Racing are both great companies who have been around for decades. I don't see them selling garbage, they both stand behind the products they sell, which is why a lot of people buy from them. Summit sells the same exact engine build from a different company. They both have 3 year warranties unlimited miles, that tells me they have confidence in their product, and you have summit or jegs on your side as well. I doubt the oem warranty is any better and will probably have a mileage limit as well, some nonsense like 36k miles or 3 years. Plus free shipping on jegs...not sure about summit. https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/crate-engines/engine-type/h4/cylinder-head-style-application/dohc/aspiration/turbocharged?N=actual-engine-displacement%3A2-5l-2457cc_2-5l-2458cc_2-5l-2498cc%2Baspiration%3Aturbocharged&SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Default https://www.summitracing.com/parts/vre-712d/overview/ I don't know if subaru is still manufacturing 2005 subaru engines! The dealership can say it's a new motor, but it's most likely remanufactured. I'm not sure though, maybe they are still making them new at the plant or have thousands of them sitting in a warehouse, but I doubt that. Edited November 10, 2019 by Tehnation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Another thing to consider! They take your old engine and ALL the other parts, ie intake manifold, injectors, steering pump, alternator, ac, turbo, the sensors, the piping, throttle body, oil pump, etc. then charge you for a complete new set, while keeping all your old shit, which has lots of value, so they rob you twice! Your old motor gets shipped somewhere and is rebuilt and sold to the next sucker! You can rebuild your heads for 300-600 bucks and sell them for 1200+. You basically lose like 3k+ plus in parts in that transaction, unless they give you your old engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveWaters Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Could simply be a valve clearance issue. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 I don't know if subaru is still manufacturing 2005 subaru engines! The dealership can say it's a new motor, but it's most likely remanufactured. I'm not sure though, maybe they are still making them new at the plant or have thousands of them sitting in a warehouse, but I doubt that. I've never seen a reman vs new engine in all honesty, but my short block sure looked new. They still use the ej25 with only mild changes to piston heads from what I can tell, so I wouldn't be surprised if they still made new blocks. I asked for my old block back from the machine shop. It was late and there were like two guys there but they weren't initially going to give it to me. I asked the guy if they charged a core and he said no so I told him I wanted it since they hadn't seen any reason why my old one went. He just rolled it up on a cart and seemed kinda mad about it. But eff that I want my old stuff unless we've already talked about it. You gave me my old flywheel and that water pump only has 20k on it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulwaffle Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 Subaru absolutely makes EJ255s. It's not the same P/N that came installed in the 2005 cars, but it is a replacement that gets you the proper compression ratio with B25 heads. I'd assume the difference is the block casting. The 2005 cars came with a 701 casting - maybe Nonamedude can tell us what casting his EJ255 had. As to whether they're remans or not, I'd be extremely surprised if they were. The dealership near me sends remans to a local Subaru specialist. Probably cheaper and way less taxing on the supply chain that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 they still have the ej257 for the sti, so I imagine they are using that short block. But i was under the impression subaru was doing away with the ej25 series, it's only made in one car atm, the sti, everything else is direct injection with the F-series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulwaffle Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 The current gen 255 and 257 use different pistons for different combustion chamber volumes. In fact, there's two variants of the EJ255 produced with different pistons, one to match B25 heads and one to match D25 heads. Fair point that the EJ is going away, maybe they won't be available much longer. Wonder how long something like the EJ22T was made after it was killed off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 10, 2019 Share Posted November 10, 2019 The ej255 and ej257 are interchangeable and work with any head I thought. That's why most people when they #ynansb get the better ej257. Then again when I contacted heuberger i think for a quote on a sb, the ej255 cost more. The ej255 is the engine code for both the wrx before they went to f series in 2014/15 and the early lgts, like what you said, which is why there is so much confusion. But I don't think they still make the lgt ej255, because they went to the ej257, and the newer ej255's are what's in the wrx. Not sure about all the details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Are you referring to the casting marks by where the head goes? I have a b25 706 on each case halve. I'm assuming b25 is referring to the head it is supposed to be used with? I kinda figured they were just making ej25 case halves, and putting whatever crank, rods, and pistons they needed. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I should save up for another short block for 10 years from now lol. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 i thought 08's had d25 heads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awfulwaffle Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Yeah I thought so too. So, it sounds like the casting is the latest, with proper internals to get the CR right. Nonamedude, which P/N did you buy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 10103AC880 from hueberger. My heads are marked d25 so that's right. We did it by vin and I asked for the 255. Part number corresponds to the ej255 and not the 257 though. For reference to the thread, it was $1719 and $110 shipping. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 the complete motor from subaru only has a 1 year no mileage warranty, i sent them an email. I was expecting at least 3. Don't the newer lgts with the d25 come with the ej257? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Yea I think so. My understanding is the 05-06 ej257 is not the same ej257 as in the newer vehicles. I think it's technically an ej255 with different heads and they changed the heads in 07-09 but since the compression ratio changed slightly, if you have an 05-06 you want the ej257 short block. It's also a bit of hair splitting. It seems you can really run either and the difference in tuning is negligible. But I'm running stock for right now so ej255. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 i think subaru went with higher compression after 05-06 lgts. Subaru is really bad at indexing and organizing their information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Yes but it's minimal. It's 8.2:1 vs 8:1. I found it in one of the threads somewhere but can't seem to locate it. It's close enough that apparently the tuning difference is negligible but it is still different so if you aren't doing anything crazy, just stick stock. That's the comparison I have. These cars feel like a friggin rocket ship, and I'm driving mine no boost and low rpm and throttle for right now. Compared to my old civic it's great. I'm sure that's why OP wants to keep his. But there's a price to pay for the fun unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 So subaru doesn't actually make complete engines anymore, after emailing this dealership, here were the responses. "Subaru does not offer complete long blocks anymore. They only offer short blocks which are priced around $2200.00 plus shipping & handling if applicable. These are brand new units with no core deposit." "We apologize for the confusion. The page that you see of the complete engine is an old listing we need to get removed. It is not available anymore. You can purchase short blocks and heads separately but the heads are incomplete/ bare with no valves/ camshafts included.? So to me the high quotes are because they get a bunch of parts and put it together themselves, so you might actually be paying them to build the engine paying 11-13k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 also oem short blocks etc. warranty is kinda shit as well "The Authorized Genuine Subaru Replacement Parts Limited Warranty: 1 year from date of installation with no mileage limitation." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nonamedude Posted November 11, 2019 Share Posted November 11, 2019 Yea that was what my 11k quote was for. All new parts including camshafts even though there was nothing wrong with them. They said ahhh rod knock all new everything. And I said I'll be towing this home thank you. Yea I kinda figured warranty was irrelevant for me since I was doing everything myself in a back yard. Idk if jegs would have given me a warranty. Iag has a really strict break in and requires only certain oils. The warranty is only a year if you do it yourself. I have their break in and warranty up on my phone atm as I was using it for a guide since I got nothing from the machine shop. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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