Shadow_419 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Have you tried the vag-com cable with btssm? I was contacted within a day when I had an issue connecting the first time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 alright new OBDLinx adapter can pair with 2 devices and no longer spams my phone. Nice Cannot get it to work with BtSSM but I can get it to work with everything else OBDWiz (Windows) Car Doctor Pro (Windows) ActiveOBD (Android) TOrque (Android) OBDLinx (Android) Submitted a request for help, waiting to hear back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 here is the car after 22 minutes of running... notice the coolant temp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nads Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 187*f seems fine to me. What temp is the thermostat? 18" of vacuum seems low if this is at idle, unless the reading is before the throttle body and not after. What does the vacuum do when you drive and come to s stop and it wants to die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 that coolant temp is not fine, the car barely puts out any heat the colder it gets the lower that temp will be....after 22 minutes of driving that car should up to 195F+ MAP is located after the throttle plate on top of the intake manifold so the reading is after the throttle plate for comparison, my 2003 Subaru is up to full operating temp within 3 miles under the same conditions. and it does not suffer the 6MPG loss in fuel economy, stumble, or idle rough.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarang Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 that coolant temp is not fine, the car barely puts out any heat the colder it gets the lower that temp will be....after 22 minutes of driving that car should up to 195F+ That's what my car's coolant is normally. IDK what you heat issue is, but it seems like it is not that the coolant isn't hot enough. I work with commercial facility heating hot water, and temps closer to 165 entering and 145 leaving are typical. If you have heating water that hot and plenty of CFMs of air coming from the vents, then that air must not be going through the coil. So either you coil is blocked, or the air is being diverted around it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 My 2.5GT's stock themostat is 91C (196F) and has an opening of 82-86C (180-187F). My car definitely does not reach 196F in normal operation during the winter. I put in 91C (196F) that has an earlier opening 76-80C (169-176F) and my car run cooler year round despite have the same full open temperature. You can find the specs out in the factory service manual of the opening range and full opening temperatures. Your thermostat may be just operating in the normal range especially given the winter temperatures. I know you changed the thermostat but if an aftermarket thermostat was used, it may have difference specs as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 ok I dunno how to make this any clear: 1. drive the car on the FWY under load it takes 20+ miles for the car to reach acceptable heat output. This is in moderate temps that are above 0F 2. MPG is in the low 20's on the highway 3. You can STOMP on the accelerator and feel the heat increase in the vents.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Heat can be somewhat objective. On cold day, I turn my heated seat off by 3 miles, because I am usually hot by that time. My girlfriend leave her heater seat on cold permanently on. My car usually has heat within the 2 miles and usually has good heat by 3 miles. I likely have a cooler thermostat than you do as well. I have had cars with 170 thermostat that heat just fine on cold days. Highway driving is good for cooling efficiency, so that may explain the colder coolant temperature than you expect. I drove my truck in the summer on the highway without any fans (one of the electric fans shorted out and blew the fuse). I didn't notice it until I got off the highway and was idling. I suspect your thermostat is not the issue. I wonder if you have an air bubble trapped in the heater core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarang Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 So you can work to identify the heating issue with logic: Heating water in the system is hot enough. (meaning at the sensor) Airflow from the vents is fast enough. Here are some follow up questions: What are the water temps entering and leaving the coil? (for your purpose, "really hot" is exact enough. You might be able to touch the nipple that the radiator hose clamps on to to verify this. If one or both is not "really hot" then you have a water flow issue.) What are the air temps entering and leaving the coil? for this, put in a vent thermometer and compare to the ambient in your cabin. If you have good water flow (both nipples are hot), and good airflow, but not hot enough air coming out of the vents, the your air may be bypassing the coil. This would be some kind of duct issue. Also test at different RPMs. If your leaving air temp increases at say 4k rpm, then there may be a partial blockage of water flow and enough water is pushed through with increased water pressure at higher RPM. I'm not sure if an air bubble would cause that, but I know that debris/corrosion in the water line could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 Heat can be somewhat objective. On cold day, I turn my heated seat off by 3 miles, because I am usually hot by that time. My girlfriend leave her heater seat on cold permanently on. My car usually has heat within the 2 miles and usually has good heat by 3 miles. I likely have a cooler thermostat than you do as well. I have had cars with 170 thermostat that heat just fine on cold days. Highway driving is good for cooling efficiency, so that may explain the colder coolant temperature than you expect. I drove my truck in the summer on the highway without any fans (one of the electric fans shorted out and blew the fuse). I didn't notice it until I got off the highway and was idling. I suspect your thermostat is not the issue. I wonder if you have an air bubble trapped in the heater core. this issue has been ongoing for 3 years, the car has been bled no less than 5 times. it's not that. as noted above I can drive my 2003 Subaru and even the the temps are -27F outside, the car is making heat within 4 miles.... this not a heater core blocked issue, this is not a lack of airflow issue, this is the engine is not running right issue. it is absurd that the car gets 30mpg on the same route in the summer and 21 in the winter. I do not let the car warm up because even after 20 minutes it is not warm and it is a waste of time. every other car I have driven might see 2 mpg drop but 9mpg? come on now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nads Posted December 17, 2018 Share Posted December 17, 2018 Have you logged from cold when the engine comes up to or over ~180*F? Basically log or observe your daily routine watching the temp? Note when you see it get hotter and then cool down, this will be the thermostat opening. The thermostat is one of the unknowns you've noted. I think until you pull it and test it and very what temp it is it could be an issue. Did you or have you seen anything higher than 18" of vacuum at idle? Some cars heat systems are actuated by engine vacuum (via a reservoir or accumulator). I had a Mustang with a turbo 2.3 transplanted and when I hit boost the heat settings would change until I installed some factory check valves from a turbo car. I guess what I'm eluding too is your vacuum leak and heat issues could be from the same source. This a "seat of the pants" guess not looking into how the Legacy HVAC control system works. I will say -27*f is something I've never driven in so having any appreciably automotive experience at that temp isn't something I have. I have spent several years of my career in economy testing and alternative conveyance of gasoline. Colder temps (and too hot), from our testing, always hurt results. Also, when doing actual road test, (After a lot of dyno work) weather and road conditions can greatly affect economy as well over the FMVSS City and HWY dyno simulations, which is what your window sticker MPG is based on. Here is a good read on the topic. https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted December 17, 2018 Author Share Posted December 17, 2018 you are not going to see a 9mpg drop driving the same route in winter vs summer...roads around here are generally clean when I drive...no way 9mpg is weather related.... every single car I have driven I have been able to beat EPA just by not driving like an idiot. 2002 CLS- rated 19 city 27 highway 21 combined.. I managed 21 city 24 average and 30 on the highway dropped by 2 mpg in winter results were consistent over the 150K I drove it 2003 Subaru Legacy 19 city 21 combined 25 highway I manage 22 city 25 combined and 28 highway. I am down 1 mpg for winter time. Got car with 60K, now has 131K results are constant over 70K miles 2014 Subaru legacy when warm I manage a very respectable 28 mpg average and 25 in the city and 33 highway... when cold, forget it, it drinks more gas than every single other car I have owned since 2003...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow_419 Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 Just a swag, but pertaining to the heat inside the car issue any chance the blend actuator has failed in your legacy? The coolant temp seems to be more than enough heat to warm up a car, but if the air isn't being directed through the heater core it'll take forever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nads Posted December 18, 2018 Share Posted December 18, 2018 What is your vacuum at warm idle in park. Do you get more heat when stopped then moving. Like you come to a stop and all of the sudden you get a rush of heat then take off and it goes cold? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted December 19, 2018 Author Share Posted December 19, 2018 5:23am just started open loop high idle vacuum is 13in/Hg revs are 1792 outside temp 34F coolant temp is 36F. car has severe hesitation when starting off 3 minutes later closed loop 18.3in/hg revs are 990 coolant temp is 84.2 after 22 minutes and idling at work 18.9in/Hg revs are 708 coolant temp is 194. heat output is good. Car still has a very slight hesitation when starting off... Just a swag, but pertaining to the heat inside the car issue any chance the blend actuator has failed in your legacy? The coolant temp seems to be more than enough heat to warm up a car, but if the air isn't being directed through the heater core it'll take forever no as I can hear the door move and the air does slowly warm up. I change/clean out where the cabin filter goes every 30K miles and it is spotless in there, airflow is very good. I can feel the heat increase if I put the engine under load....ie hard acceleration... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nads Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 after 22 minutes and idling at work 18.9in/Hg revs are 708 coolant temp is 194. heat output is good. Car still has a very slight hesitation when starting off.. Unless Subaru says different that's a low vacuum reading at idle for a car with what should be very mild cam timing. The hesitation gives me further reason to believe something isn't quite right. Below is straight from the 2014 manual 4cyl section. 19.General Diagnostic Table A: INSPECTION 1. ENGINE NOTE: Malfunction of parts other than those listed is also possible. <Ref. to ME(H4DO)-351, Engine Trouble in General.> Symptoms Faulty parts 1. Engine stalls during idling. 1) Manifold absolute pressure sensor 2) Mass air flow and intake air temperature sensor 3) Ignition parts (*1) 4) Engine coolant temperature sensor (*2) 5) Crankshaft position sensor (*3) 6) Camshaft position sensor (*3) 7) Fuel injection parts (*4) 8) Electronic throttle control 2. Rough idling 1) Manifold absolute pressure sensor 2) Mass air flow and intake air temperature sensor 3) Engine coolant temperature sensor (*2) 4) Ignition parts (*1) 5) Air intake system (*5) 6) Fuel injection parts (*4) 7) Electronic throttle control 8) Crankshaft position sensor (*3) 9) Camshaft position sensor (*3) 10) Oxygen sensor 11) Fuel pump and fuel pump relay 12) EGR control valve 3. Engine does not return to idle. 1) Engine coolant temperature sensor 2) Electronic throttle control 3) Manifold absolute pressure sensor 4) Mass air flow and intake air temperature sensor 5) EGR control valve 6) Accelerator pedal position sensor 7) Engine oil temperature sensor 4. Poor acceleration 1) Manifold absolute pressure sensor 2) Mass air flow and intake air temperature sensor 3) Electronic throttle control 4) Fuel injection parts (*4) 5) Fuel pump and fuel pump relay 6) Engine coolant temperature sensor (*2) 7) Crankshaft position sensor (*3) 8) Camshaft position sensor (*3) 9) Engine torque control signal circuit 10) Ignition parts (*1) 11) EGR control valve 12) Accelerator pedal position sensor 13) Engine oil temperature sensor 5. Engine stalls, hesitates, or sputters at acceleration. 1) Manifold absolute pressure sensor 2) Mass air flow and intake air temperature sensor 3) Engine coolant temperature sensor (*2) 4) Crankshaft position sensor (*3) 5) Camshaft position sensor (*3) 6) Purge control solenoid valve 7) Fuel injection parts (*4) 8) Electronic throttle control 9) Fuel pump and fuel pump relay 10) EGR control valve *1: Check ignition coil and spark plug. *2: Indicate the symptom occurring only in cold temperatures. *3: Ensure the secure installation. *4: Check fuel injector and fuel filter. *5: Inspect air leak in air intake system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted December 20, 2018 Author Share Posted December 20, 2018 Nads, Thanks for the list, I am assuming that the coolant temp sensor is ok since it is reading very close to what the car's ambiet temp sensor is when car is ON but not running. This morning it was 37F (42F in detached garage) outside start car up Vacuum is 13.6in/Hg, revs are 1789 and coolant temp is 44.6. pull into work and idle car to take last reading (in drive) 19 minutes later vacuum is 17.4in/Hg, revs are 697 and coolant temp is 192.2 heat output is pretty good. a couple of oddities I have noticed (I swapped the cluster from a premium into my car) is that the fuel economy gauge will swing pretty much completely to the right when I left my foot off the gas when going 20 mph and then go back to the left and stay at 3 yellow bars while coasting. down an incline In the summer time, it will remain far right into the green... at higher coasting speeds it will remain in the green but not pegged out like it normally will be. when it is in the low teens it will smell extremely rich. I have compared this to my wife's 2003 Subaru under the same conditions and her car does not smell nearly as bad. Last year I replaced the MAF as the car was smelling like raw fuel and it kept setting a P171 and when I swapped that sensor, the code was gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgoodhue Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Their is also a section in the service manual for HVAC diagnostics as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nads Posted December 20, 2018 Share Posted December 20, 2018 Nads, Thanks for the list, I am assuming that the coolant temp sensor is ok since it is reading very close to what the car's ambiet temp sensor is when car is ON but not running. This morning it was 37F (42F in detached garage) outside start car up Vacuum is 13.6in/Hg, revs are 1789 and coolant temp is 44.6. pull into work and idle car to take last reading (in drive) 19 minutes later vacuum is 17.4in/Hg, revs are 697 and coolant temp is 192.2 heat output is pretty good. a couple of oddities I have noticed (I swapped the cluster from a premium into my car) is that the fuel economy gauge will swing pretty much completely to the right when I left my foot off the gas when going 20 mph and then go back to the left and stay at 3 yellow bars while coasting. down an incline In the summer time, it will remain far right into the green... at higher coasting speeds it will remain in the green but not pegged out like it normally will be. when it is in the low teens it will smell extremely rich. I have compared this to my wife's 2003 Subaru under the same conditions and her car does not smell nearly as bad. Last year I replaced the MAF as the car was smelling like raw fuel and it kept setting a P171 and when I swapped that sensor, the code was gone. Vacuum will drop as RPM's increase, WOT should reach near 0" (this is on a NA engine). its the 17" at 700 rpms that looks not good. I do know if my previous life car manufactures were attempting to gain economy through reduction of pumping losses, i.e. a reduction in vacuum when not needed, like coasting down a hill. As to where to go from here I have no clue. If it we're me I'd start simple and work to the more complicated items. I recall your previour posts on your car. It seemed every time something was fixed something new issue arose. Is it still under warranty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 yes, it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nads Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 yes, it is I would be on Subaru's ass then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 I am , gotta wait till it is cold again. BTW, how can I get access to other sensors in torque? like crank, cam, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 So you can work to identify the heating issue with logic: Heating water in the system is hot enough. (meaning at the sensor) Airflow from the vents is fast enough. Add to it - sludge in the heater core limiting the flow (or other constraint limiting the flow through the core.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarang Posted December 23, 2018 Share Posted December 23, 2018 I do seem to recall reading about Subaru heater cores being known for getting gunked up if the incorrect coolant is used. I don't have a link, I stumbled upon that info while researching how to keep my temps under control during out ridiculous Phoenix summer. It seems like a plausible issue though, with used cars you never know how oblivious the previous owner was (and some people just really don't care to know anything about their cars) and the dealers can be just as bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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