yamahagr Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 The goal is diagnosis, not guessing what is wrong. Why not do a few diagnostic tests when you get time. First, get the transmission warm by driving normally for 10 or 15 minutes. Go find an empty, smooth road. Accelerate to 50 mph or so. Do you hear or feel any noise in the driveline? Now, turn sharply left and right at moderate speed. Do you hear or feel any noise now? While driving straight at moderate speed, brake hard. Notice anything unusual? Now, repeat the tests on a bumpy road. Any difference? You get the idea... If you get more info, maybe that will shed some light. I'm not sure if you've read the whole post but I have done all sort of testing, including turns, corners, slow speed, high speed, swerving ect... Often with an observer to help pinpoint the noise. I've never heard any whining on clicking, just the popping that occurs on turns. To those of you that had bad diffs or driveline binding, when it happened did you feel it through the driveline or just hear it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 ...I've never heard any whining on clicking, just the popping that occurs on turns... That's why the center diff is suspect. If it were the center diff, you would expect no noise going straight, and noise in turns as the diff comes into action on turns, especially sharp turns. How about slick surfaces? Is it possible to drive on ice and snow where you are? That should really bring out the noise if it is the center diff. BTW, transmission should be warm. We are not talking about total lockup, but grabbing and releasing suddenly, which produces the popping or knocking sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahagr Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 The ice test is a good idea, I might be able to find some snow nearby and try it out. So when we're talking about the center diff do we really mean the VC inside it? Aside from actually breaking and blowing up the only thing that can fail inside a diff is the bearings right? If the VC is the culprit and they fail because the fluid inside overheats then is there a technical reason why one couldn't just change the fluid? I understand they aren't designed to be serviceable but I just read about a guy who changed the fluid on his non serviceable VC. $20 is a hell of a lot cheaper than $500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Whenever I go on those parts diagram pages I select my model/year but when I come to powertrain it doesnt show an option for a 2009 Legacy with a manual transmission, how can I get the exact part number for the center diff/VC? You can plugin your VIN at parts.subaru.com, that's what I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I Donated Too sigmafour Posted January 27, 2017 I Donated Too Share Posted January 27, 2017 I understand they aren't designed to be serviceable but I just read about a guy who changed the fluid on his non serviceable VC. $20 is a hell of a lot cheaper than $500. Send the link to this... if true it's something all of us would like to know! The 'non serviceable' sealed center diff is sharing the regular transmission fluid. Although it lives in its own apartment out back, you have reported glitter on the dip stick up front... So the other issue you have is the debris is now rattling around all your other gears. There is a magnet on the drain plug but that won't be enough to stop all the problems and you will need to flush that box as best you can and then fill it with the good stuff of your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Aside from actually breaking and blowing up the only thing that can fail inside a diff is the bearings right? If the VC is the culprit and they fail because the fluid inside overheats then is there a technical reason why one couldn't just change the fluid? That's going to be really hard to know until you open it up and look. You did see metal particles in the trans oil which might be bearings or something else. There are transfer gears, bearings, shims and other parts in that case around the center diff. As far as changing the fluid, sorry no idea. That center diff unit is supposed to be non-serviceable. Most people replace the whole unit. Transmission work usually requires high precision and skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahagr Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 Here is a link to the post I read about changing VC fluid. https://www.civicwagon.com/showthread.php?9747-DYI-rebuilding-repair-RT4wd-Viscous-Coupler&. If I end up having to change my center diff I might give rebuilding the VC a shot just for kicks and giggles. Probably gonna drain a sample of the trans fluid to see just how much glitter I actually have in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 I don't think you just have worn out fluid in your center differential.. When my center differential went bad, I got no noise when the weather was cold for at least 20 minutes, then I would get a metallic clicking sound when turning into or backing our of parking spots for example. During warmer weather, it would only take 5 minutes or so of driving before I would get the metallic clicking sound. What you have is a legit knock, clunk, something is seriously wrong type of noise. I don't think it's as simple as bad center differential fluid, I think something is broken in your center differential or transmission. Draining out a sample of the old fluid could be misleading, since there is a magnetic drain plug in the transmission. If you drain the transmission fluid, you're looking at least $20 to refill with fluid, using something like $5 per quart supertech synthetic blend 75w-90 gear oil, which is what I would use if I wanted to use a budget gear oil. I would also replace the transmission drain plug washer, $2 there too. If you do decide to try and somehow replace the fluid in the center diff, remember you have to.. -drain transmission fluid -drop the transmission mounts, support the transmission -drop the exhaust mid pipe -heat shield above exhaust -drop drive shaft -use a chisel to break loose the tail housing (not easy, a bit nervewracking) -remove shift linkage, and the annoying roll pins that give people a lot of trouble. I got lucky and mine were easy to remove, probably because i've had my clutch replaced twice then there's rebuilding the center diff, and resealing up the tail end of the transmission with rtv, ideally replacing exhaust gaskets (donut gasket alone cost $20), exhaust springs and bolts (not cheap either, I think $20-$30), refilling with transmission fluid ($20+) Cross your fingers, and hope it works. If it doesn't, you get to do all that stuff all over again. So I guess I'm just trying to say that I totally understand money is tight, I get it. However, I would probably just throw a brand new center diff in. Now, here's another thought. If you want to do all the stuff i said above to inspect the gears near the center diff for a chipped tooth http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=231983&d=1465792898 or try to open your old center diff to see if anything is actually broken before spending the money to buy a new, then that wouldn't be as bad. I just think the whole new center diff fluid thing is a bad idea.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustCallMeNick Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 I would just take my car to an experienced transmission repair shop where it's their job to fix these problems... (This is how regular people outside of car forums solve problems) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrewski the Booski Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Mine has made a similar popping noise turning while in reverse. I'm thinking it's suspension related I'm thinking ball joints or tie rods. When my forester MT was having VC issues it was only after driving at highway speeds and above for around an hour. It sounded a little different than the noises in your video, but you could feel the entire car jump along with the noise. VC issue comes from having mismatched tires or excessive abuse of the awd system. Sent from my HTC Desire Eye using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 I completely forgot that you bought the car after it had been wrecked too, that definitely increases the chances that a suspension part could be bent or broken or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahagr Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 I have all the symptoms spread out over 4 pages so here a brief summary to keep things fresh. -There is a popping noise coming from somewhere in the front when I turn right (forward and reverse) -This noise is much easier to induce when reversing -Popping is more likely to happen when car is loaded or if the front wheel(s) hit a bumb (compressing the suspension) -There is a direct correlation between front suspension loading and the popping noise occurring during turns. If I'm going slow I have to turn sharp do get it to pop, if Im going fast (taking a corner or swerving) then much less steering angle is required, even 1/4 turn of the steering wheel is enough. -No binding/locking/shuddering of the wheels was observed, even on loose gravel -No whine, drone, or any unusual noise was observed during straight line driving and sharp turns -Its almost never just one pop -Sometimes after a good pop (after a right turn) Ill turn left and here a faint popping/creaking noise, almost as if all the components that shifted from the initial pop are returning back to neutral. -Popping occurs completely cold or warm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahagr Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 I don't think you just have worn out fluid in your center differential.. When my center differential went bad, I got no noise when the weather was cold for at least 20 minutes, then I would get a metallic clicking sound when turning into or backing our of parking spots for example. During warmer weather, it would only take 5 minutes or so of driving before I would get the metallic clicking sound. What you have is a legit knock, clunk, something is seriously wrong type of noise. I don't think it's as simple as bad center differential fluid, I think something is broken in your center differential or transmission. Draining out a sample of the old fluid could be misleading, since there is a magnetic drain plug in the transmission. If you drain the transmission fluid, you're looking at least $20 to refill with fluid, using something like $5 per quart supertech synthetic blend 75w-90 gear oil, which is what I would use if I wanted to use a budget gear oil. I would also replace the transmission drain plug washer, $2 there too. If you do decide to try and somehow replace the fluid in the center diff, remember you have to.. -drain transmission fluid -drop the transmission mounts, support the transmission -drop the exhaust mid pipe -heat shield above exhaust -drop drive shaft -use a chisel to break loose the tail housing (not easy, a bit nervewracking) -remove shift linkage, and the annoying roll pins that give people a lot of trouble. I got lucky and mine were easy to remove, probably because i've had my clutch replaced twice then there's rebuilding the center diff, and resealing up the tail end of the transmission with rtv, ideally replacing exhaust gaskets (donut gasket alone cost $20), exhaust springs and bolts (not cheap either, I think $20-$30), refilling with transmission fluid ($20+) Cross your fingers, and hope it works. If it doesn't, you get to do all that stuff all over again. So I guess I'm just trying to say that I totally understand money is tight, I get it. However, I would probably just throw a brand new center diff in. Now, here's another thought. If you want to do all the stuff i said above to inspect the gears near the center diff for a chipped tooth http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=231983&d=1465792898 or try to open your old center diff to see if anything is actually broken before spending the money to buy a new, then that wouldn't be as bad. I just think the whole new center diff fluid thing is a bad idea.. Okay then I'll change the trans fluid to get a better insight as to whats going on in there. And after reviewing all that you guys have said and comparing that to all the symptoms my car has and has not exhibited it just doesnt seem like the center diff is the culprit. I've done a fair amount if auto repair work and the noises that I hear dont sound like driveline... But once again, I can't be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 -There is a popping noise coming from somewhere in the front when I turn right (forward and reverse) I noticed on your original video the popping noise occurs when you are turning hard LEFT. When you turn in a circle, IOW keeping the steering wheel turned fully right or left as you drive at steady speed, does it pop just a few times and stop, or does it continue popping as the car moves forward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahagr Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 I noticed on your original video the popping noise occurs when you are turning hard LEFT. When you turn in a circle, IOW keeping the steering wheel turned fully right or left as you drive at steady speed, does it pop just a few times and stop, or does it continue popping as the car moves forward? In the video I'm driving backwards and you can see me turn the wheel fully to the right. If im turning it will pop a few times then stop, its like once the tension has been released I have to turn the wheel straight then turn again for it to build up and release again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 In the video I'm driving backwards and you can see me turn the wheel fully to the right. It's a 5 second cell phone video and it wasn't obvious (at least to me) you were in reverse. Oh, well. Also, you said in your first post: the noise ranges anywhere from a small pop to a series of grinding pops that sound like my driveline is destroying itself. which is what led people to think that the center diff was a likely cause. Plus, that part about driving on a flat tire for 5 miles. Oh, well, the perils of diagnosing car problems over the internet... Did you check the "top hats"? These are the metal/rubber bearings on the top of each front strut. If you search the forums you can see what people have done about noise from this cause. It would be unusual in a low-mile car but yours had some accident damage. May be related to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahagr Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 It's a 5 second cell phone video and it wasn't obvious (at least to me) you were in reverse. Oh, well. Also, you said in your first post: which is what led people to think that the center diff was a likely cause. Plus, that part about driving on a flat tire for 5 miles. Oh, well, the perils of diagnosing car problems over the internet... Did you check the "top hats"? These are the metal/rubber bearings on the top of each front strut. If you search the forums you can see what people have done about noise from this cause. It would be unusual in a low-mile car but yours had some accident damage. May be related to that. But of confusion there but no worries. If it was the suspension top hats would the popping occur when turning in both directions? And I'd imagine it would happen a lot more frequently, I've checked the top hats and they seem to be okay. I took the car to a more experienced mechanic friend and he said that it definitely sounds like my undercarriage, not my driveline but after putting the car on stands again I still can't find anything wrong. The only thing that didn't look 100% right was the tierods both leaked out a bit of grease on the ends by the hub but I triple checked to make sure that they were solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 If it was related to the top hats, you would probably not hear any noise unless the suspension was loaded, potentially there would be more noise when the suspension is more loaded. It could be only one top hat so that would affect only one side of the car. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahagr Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 If it was related to the top hats, you would probably not hear any noise unless the suspension was loaded, potentially there would be more noise when the suspension is more loaded. It could be only one top hat so that would affect only one side of the car. Just a thought. How could I definitevly check the top hats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustCallMeNick Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 Tie rod end knock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michigansubie Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Check power steering fluid Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahagr Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 https://youtu.be/jJcqZiLJvv0 I discovered something pretty odd. With the front end jacked up I rocked one wheel by hand back and forth aggressively. There was some range of motion where it felt easy to move the wheel then it would hit into something and become harder. I tested another car like this and it was completely different. The steering rack should have a consistent pull, not like this one. Using a stethoscope I narrowed the noise down the the steering rack and I check the PS fluid which was absolutely clean with a very slight burnt smell (normal?). I want to stress that the steering on this car behaves absolutely 100% normal. There is zero play in any of the linkages and moving the wheel a quarter inch in either direction is visible through the steering wheel. I have never felt feedback in the through steering wheel when the popping happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solidxsnake Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 https://youtu.be/jJcqZiLJvv0 I discovered something pretty odd. With the front end jacked up I rocked one wheel by hand back and forth aggressively. There was some range of motion where it felt easy to move the wheel then it would hit into something and become harder. I tested another car like this and it was completely different. The steering rack should have a consistent pull, not like this one. Using a stethoscope I narrowed the noise down the the steering rack and I check the PS fluid which was absolutely clean with a very slight burnt smell (normal?). I want to stress that the steering on this car behaves absolutely 100% normal. There is zero play in any of the linkages and moving the wheel a quarter inch in either direction is visible through the steering wheel. I have never felt feedback in the through steering wheel when the popping happens. :confused: I don't feel it through the floor but if it's a decent pop I'll feel it through the steering wheel. It's almost like the steering rack is catching on something then popping past it but there's nothing for it to catch on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 ...the noise ranges anywhere from a small pop to a series of grinding pops that sound like my driveline is destroying itself... I've done a fair amount if auto repair work and the noises that I hear dont sound like driveline... :confused: I'd like to nominate yamahagr for the "Confounding Poster of the Year" Award. April 1 is still two months away, buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamahagr Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 :confused: Yes yes thats fair. I remembered saying that while I wrote the last post but just go with the most recent one. There may be very very slight feedback but its so minute that its hard to say and shouldnt be depended on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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