Brighton96 Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Yeah it's should be dumping fuel when the ignition is on. I don't know if I understand which hose you pulled off to check this but pull the hose before the filter and see if it's flowing there, if its flowing heavily before the filter then it's clogged, if its not flowing then either no power to the pump, a clogged pump sock or a dead pump. It sounds like you found the culprit though. There is a relay but I'm not sure where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doublechaz Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Both. It should energize the pump as soon as you put the key to run, and the system would build pressure before/as you try to start it. I think it was Brighton96 that just said in another thread that his will fill a 20 oz bottle in about 15 seconds. I've done that test before, but didn't gather flow data, just made sure there was lots of flow. You take off the fuel line where it goes in to the fuel filter and let it squirt into a bottle, but you have to be ready to shut it back down again as it will keep trying to build pressure but can't with the system open, so pumping.... When my fuel pump died years ago I was able to drive a few hundred yards normally, then it lost power, coughed a bit and nothing. Could not restart it. It would fire just a tiny bit sometimes, but never even close to starting/running. Several hours later I was able to get it started and limp it back home the few hundred yards. I'm sure if I would have pulled that line then it would have had poor flow, but I was already sure it was the pump so I didn't try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloadit Posted February 15, 2017 Author Share Posted February 15, 2017 After reading more post, I can't hear the fuel pump running. Now I need to see if I shut it down swapping relays and SBF fuses. I'm not finding any clear information on relays or fuses for it but will keep looking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton96 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Lift up the back seat and put your head down to the floor, if you can't hear it then then it's dead or not getting power. I've noticed older people can't hear them (not saying you're old) But if you are old or have less than good hearing, you probably won't hear it, it's a really annoying high pitch whine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doublechaz Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 Right next to the back seat, right side in the cargo area if it's a wagon. I never noticed my OE pump running, but I could hear the replacement one. If you have weak power, or intermittant going to the pump that would explain a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choover1101 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 You could run 12v jumpers from known good power to the pump. If it works and the car starts and runs fine pump is good. If the pump doesn't start then it is most likely pump failure. I used this on my turbo camry to limp the car until I could find the problem wiring. On my RX7 I just ran an add a fuse to a key activated fuse and made my own relay circuit. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloadit Posted February 15, 2017 Author Share Posted February 15, 2017 Thank you everyone. I did confirm there is no fuel. I first took the hose off after the filter then took the hose off before the filter. No fuel. What fuel was in the filter is clean and I can blow through the filter easily so the question is, is it the pump or a fuse/relay preventing power to the pump. I will expose the access point to the pump and listen very close. I like to think I have great hearing but my wife argues with me on that. I do shoot a lot. Out of excitement and desperation I did order a new inexpensive pump off of Ebay that should be here in two days. Anyone have any experience with these less expensive pumps? I will let you all know what I find when I access the pump. I will hook it up to a 12v source too. I might let it warm up a hair though, winter is still being a real turd here. Thanks again everyone. Maybe it was the pump all along just slowly going out. Maybe I took the power from the pump when I swapped all the relays and SBF fuses? Most likely I should have checked the fuel when it first started acting up. I'm hoping to pay brighton $5 for the "something stupid" outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloadit Posted February 15, 2017 Author Share Posted February 15, 2017 Exposed the pump, and it is not making a sound at all. For me to hook it up to test it I will need to find the positive and negative points in the connector and use a jumper to hook up to my batter booster right. I can see a solid black wire and a solid red wire, can I assume those are my wires to test to see if the pump will run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton96 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 That's good news and I don't know the wiring harness but it's safe to assume black is always ground but I wouldn't go putting power to it until you confirm it with a wiring diagram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doublechaz Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 My 1995 FSM says the ground is color 'B' on pin 4 and the power is color 'LY' on pin 1 at connector R58 right at the pump. The way they have it drawn that might be the connector instide the tank. If so then the connector on the outside of the tank would be R57. Connector R57 and R15 join. On the R57 side it has the same colors, but on pin 1 and 3. On the R15 side we have the 'LY' connecting to 'BR' for power and 'B' connecting to 'B' for ground. I forget what year yours is so all that might not even help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton96 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Id suggest pulling the plug and getting a multi meter and just keep poking prongs until you get a reading. But even then you won't know which one is which is there is no power to the plug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloadit Posted February 16, 2017 Author Share Posted February 16, 2017 Yeah, I hope to get my new pump tomorrow Saturday at the latest. If I don't get the a good buddy with a multi tester before hand I plan on just replacing the pump and see what she does. If it turns out there is no power, it stands to reason there is a relay or fuse issue or I guess the freaking elusive ground issue, fingers crossed. Doublechaz, I have a 6 pin connector. I called my electrical guru off when I discovered the pump problem but now I think I will see if I can get to come by to help me check it. He should be savvy enough to figure out if we are getting power to connector at least without a problem. I'm still pretty excited. Will the new pump fix it or will it help me to find a bad relay or fuse. I can see all my blade style fuses are good, just can't tell about the "bussman" fuses if that is what they are called, the fuses in the plastic housing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton96 Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 If you put the pump in and it still doesn't work, at least you have a new pump and you now know what the exact problem is. I think our size fuses are ATC, and bussman is just a brand. There are only 3 size fuses for modern cars, so once you pull out the pump one, you'll know exactly which of the 3 it is. Also I don't know if the fuel pump has a fuse, a relay or both. You'll have to look through the internet to find out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doublechaz Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 I glanced back but didn't see, what year are we dealing with again? For 1995 there is a relay involved. The fuse is the same one that feeds the ECU. Other years may differ, but for 96 and 97 I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloadit Posted February 17, 2017 Author Share Posted February 17, 2017 As far as I can tell, the new pump fixed my problem. She is running and driving fine and I haven't noticed lack of power to anything else but haven't played with everything. It could have been a failing fuel pump all along and my tunnel vision from my last go around got the best of me. I checked the spark once early on with a friend here and saw on a brief spark and then nothing and damned if I didn't blow off checking the fuel until now. I hope I learned that lesson well this time. If driving it doesn't reveal lack of power to some other component or failure I will call it good to go. The good news is all I spent on the repair was $36 for the fuel pump and $11.50 for the new alternator bracket and a whole lot of gas in my 454 Chevy truck driving it instead of the subie. Clearly it was my tunnel vision that drug this issue out so long and I hope you guys are very forgiving because I really really appreciate all the help and advice. I will keep it with me and cherish it forever as continue to drive my older model Subarus. Fuel, spark or battery, why didn't I do more with the fuel from the start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton96 Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Sweeettt! Glad to hear it, just keep an eye on it over the next week or so and you should be good to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doublechaz Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 Great to hear it's good again. I'll admit that mine was laid up from daily driver duty for nearly a year due to my pre-supposed idea. It's a long story, but the problem turned out to be the thing I suspected first and did a poor job checking. I put a deal of money into various parts chasing that. I don't regret it because the car has 272k and most of those items will be due soon. So I have inventory. And I learned a lot along the way. And also spent a deal of money on gas driving my 318 Volare. 11 is a lot less than 26. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloadit Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/28909-coolant-leak-under-intake-manifold.html I found this discussion that sounds similar to what I am seeing and thinking. All my gaskets have been changed, and it seems to leak more or only when the heater is on, but I do believe the lead is getting worse. I will try to rinse it all off with clean water when it cools down and see how much is leaking and see if I can spot the lead while running with the heater on. I see corroded tube attached to the block that is about 4" long with a hose connected to it. I haven't witnessed it leaking but it is catching my attention. It is clearly my green coolent and it is puddled in a few different places which smokes when hot. I'm just throwing this out there on the chance that someone might have had the same thing and to see if we can tie it to the heater or not to narrow down the search and if there are any warning for irrigating the coolent off with fresh water. Don't want to make things worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton96 Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 There is a coolant cross over pipe on top of the block and it runs right to the heater, there are a few things on it that can leak, you have a rubber hoses that run up to the IACV, you have a coolant temp sensor and then 2 o-rings that go into the block, then at the end of the crossover pipe it attaches to the rubber hose going to the heater core, so about 5 places it COULD leak from. But all in all it'd be an easy but time consuming job to replace. I had a dumb moment while building my engine and as a result I have 2 spare o rings for the crossover pipe/block mating surface so you can have them if you end up needing them. This is it. http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t637/96Brighton/DSC_0527_zps3pfavkzk.jpg http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t637/96Brighton/DSC_0531_zpshs3ray9i.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloadit Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 Thanks Brighton, looks like it will require some dismantling to get in there to see. Once again I will wait for a dry sunny day and try to avoid using my heater. There shouldn't be a problem with me irrigating the puddles off the block should there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton96 Posted February 18, 2017 Share Posted February 18, 2017 If you just rinse off the block you'll be fine. This job will require removing the intake which isn't difficult, just tedious, go ahead and get intake manifold gaskets while you are at it, chances are they aren't reusable. It also depends if it's leaking all that much, I don't know if its worth going for a very minor leak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reloadit Posted February 18, 2017 Author Share Posted February 18, 2017 I rinsed it off and let it warm up to operating temp then drove hard for 10 miles without the heater on and no leaking that I can tell. The drive was not enough to dry up the pools of water so I think I will drive it without heat for a while and see if the water dries up without being replaced with more coolant. It is sufficient enough leak at least when the heater is on that I have to top of the coolant quite a bit. I have a pretty good feeling it leaks the most with the heater on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doublechaz Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 I couldn't find it in the FSM, but there is probably a valve somewhere that blocks coolant from going to the heater core. I don't think there are two such valves to isolate the core since one would be enough to block flow. Meaning the whole system would be under pressure all the time. Given that, I would say that the valve itself is what has a problem so that it leaks in one position and not the other. Follow the hoses from the firewall toward the engine and you'll find it. I'd look on mine, but it's porring rainy snowy crap right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brighton96 Posted February 19, 2017 Share Posted February 19, 2017 If there was a valve assembly then it would be in the dash somewhere because I know for a fact there isn't one on the motor anywhere, there is however a bypass on the water pump that leads up to the heater core but I'm pretty sure there is nothing mechanical to that, it just flows up there when the thermostat is closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doublechaz Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Hm, given how the bypass works I bet there isn't a valve. That would mean the heater core box would always be hot and temp control inside would be strictly through controlling air flow in the box. Also, glanced through the FSM and didn't see any mention of a valve. So then the question becomes why the intermitant coolant leak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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