Need some advice on potential engine issues

[freaksavior]

Hey guys,

 

So it's looking like my engine is having some issuesa ticking time bomb. I had it rebuilt about 5 months ago, and had the heads freshly rebuilt. While getting it tuned by Dave @ Cryo, ive been trying for months to figure out why it's retarding the timing and even advancing it

 

I have tried

Two different mafs, the one I have now seemed to scale better. I'm seeing a consistent 14.6/14.8. I wouldn't mind trying a 3rd though, or a new o2, but that's more $ and do doubt it would fix the issue.

 

I checked the plugs and they should be gapped properly, they were also replaced less than 10k miles ago.

 

I've done a compression check. It didn't look great, but forged so it could be different as the temps change. IIRC it was around 110 on 3 and 100 on the 4th.

 

Have done a smoke evap test, there are no leaks, hot or cold side.

 

Have not done a leak down, nor have I checked checked valve clearances on the heads. I'm tempted to pull the cams and make sure nothing snapped on the sprocket, although, I pulled the timing covers yesterday, set the crank at 0, and the cams were pointed perfectly.

 

Other than tearing the engine down, i'm really just out of ideas.

 

Thanks guys

[MTBwrench]

Details on your setup? Get a leakdown test done, that'll help you eliminate the possibility of valves sealing properly. Also, what do your cylinder roughness counts look like, and have you checked to make sure your knock sensor is mounted properly and both cam sensors are reading well?

 

If you're on a fresh rebuild, and the rebuild was done well, you shouldn't have any issues motor wise. This could likely be caused by an AVCS issue, fueling harmonic, bad coil pack/injector etc. (I'm assuming you did a new front O2 when you installed the new motor. If not, do that!)

[freaksavior]

First, thanks for the reply.

 

Here's the engine build list.

 

Manley Pistons

STI Forged Crank

ARP head studs

ACL Crank + rod bearings

Perrin Turbo Inlet

Reused OEM forged rods from an 04 sti(stock from the 05 lgt)

Stock aribox

 

AEM 320 Fuel pump This is about 2 months old

Perrin modified stock 816 yellow injectors.

Tomie FPR Checked with a Fuel pressure gauge

 

V52 35k miles, no shaft play when last checked 5 months ago (no shaft play 03/2017)

Invidia Up and Down catless

 

Innovate WB02 in the bell mouth of the downpipe

 

To answer your questions:

 

>bad coil pack/injector

 

4 brand new OEM coils. The roughness is always 0 so I know I'm not misfiring.

 

>(I'm assuming you did a new front O2 when you installed the new motor. If not, do that!)

 

I have not, I think the one I current have is about a year old. Maybe 15-20k. Certainly not going to hurt to try that.

 

Cam sensors, no idea. I'll see what I can find on this.

 

Knock sensor, I do believe it's positioned correctly. I Also checked it's resistance against a brand new one, and they matched, 560 iirc.

 

This may not help but

 

[JmP6889928]

What exactly is it doing that is making you believe it's a time bomb? You just MIGHT have an ECM issue that is causing the problems too. A couple of questions:

 

Does it run well?

 

Is it noisy once warmed up? (I, too, am forged, and mine sounds like an old diesel tractor on initial cold startup but it calms down after about 90 seconds and runs fine)

 

Are you SURE you have no exhaust leaks pre-turbo?

 

Is your FPR working properly?

 

Did you try a wet compression test or only dry? What was engine temp when you did it?

 

You may need to disassembly your AVCS pulleys and make sure they are clean inside as it could be causing the irregular retard/advance.

[Rester5350]

Please take this with a grain of salt, as I am no expert but this is something that I was just recently told.

 

Aprarently with some of the 05-06 my lgts/ outbacks there a false knock issue that created timing problems. Subaru issued a tsp for it or so I was told. Iirc it was caused by a faulty relay in the cooling system, possibly the high speed fan relay. The relay would short and send current through the harness and either interfered with the knock sensor or something in the ecu creating a false knock scenario therefore pulling timing.

 

I had the above mentioned issue:spin:. Even with the knock sensor disconnected the ecu was reading knock. The shop ran a new wire/relay outside of the harness and it seems to be doing the trick. One of the odd things I was noticing when it was knocking was it didn't matter what rpm or gear I was in. The other thing was the dam held at 1 and didn't change even though timing was being pulled.

 

I expected to see some knock with the sleeves and forged internals, but that scared the Out of me.

[freaksavior]

What exactly is it doing that is making you believe it's a time bomb? You just MIGHT have an ECM issue that is causing the problems too. A couple of questions:

 

Admittedly I don't know a ton about all of the tuning and logging portion, but I have read into it, and Just the constant timing being pulled is what's making me concerned. Dave also mentioned he felt it may be an internal issue. The titles probably misleading. heh.

 

I bought XRohRuhX's rolling chassis and it has an ECU. It will be here in about a week (hopefully) and i'll try a different ECU then.

 

Does it run well?

 

Is it noisy once warmed up? (I, too, am forged, and mine sounds like an old diesel tractor on initial cold startup but it calms down after about 90 seconds and runs fine)

 

It seems to after it idles for a while and gets up to operating temperature. , It does idle a bit rough though .

 

Right now, it feels like it's gone into limp mode.

 

Are you SURE you have no exhaust leaks pre-turbo?

 

Yeah, I did multiple tests with the evap tool. I can borrow it again and try again though.

 

http://www.mactools.com/en-us/Diagnostics-and-Testing/Specialty-Testers/EV9510B/Leak-Attack-Diagnostic-Smoke-Machine-Kit

 

Is your FPR working properly?

 

Yes, I spent a pretty good amount of time making sure there was proper fuel pressure at the regulator.

 

Did you try a wet compression test or only dry? What was engine temp when you did it?

 

No, I have not done a wet compression, and it was too hot to touch, so I wore gloves. It did start to cool down though. I'll do a leakdown though as suggested by mtb

 

You may need to disassembly your AVCS pulleys and make sure they are clean inside as it could be causing the irregular retard/advance.

[rhino6303]

Loose heatshield or something else loose on or near the engine? That is a fair amount of knock.

 

Is the knock occurring in all conditions?

 

Cruise?

Spool up?

Mild boost?

Full boost?

During or immediately after shifts?

 

Do you have any logs you can share?

[freaksavior]

Loose heatshield or something else loose on or near the engine? That is a fair amount of knock.

 

Is the knock occurring in all conditions?

 

Cruise?

Spool up?

Mild boost?

Full boost?

During or immediately after shifts?

 

Do you have any logs you can share?

 

Yeah, pretty much at any time it's retarding or advancing. It stays consistant. Retards in boost, usually flutters between adding and retarding on a cruise.

 

I can give y'all a log. I did have the turbo heat shield loose but fixed that a while back. I'll check the headers.

 

I'll post back with a log tomorrow and get under the car tonight.

 

edit: Is unbolting the motor mounts and jacking the motor up a bit a decent option for leakdown? Kind of sick of fighting the rears when screwing in the gague.

 

edit again, should I throw more money at it?

 

Subaru-22053AA053-Crankshaft-Sensor

 

Subaru-22056AA140-OEM-Camshaft-Sensor

 

Denso o2 Senso

 

edit3 : Since I have another ECU coming, I think that's where i'll start. I'll keep the thread updated.

 

edit 4: bearing failed in the compressor pully.

 

Gifs

 

http://i.imgur.com/Jc6Jjgj.gif

 

http://i.imgur.com/7SEkwv3.gif

 

edit 5:. I don't want to bump the thread.

 

Might be some rod knock. Sounds much more like rod knock than piston slap from the other youtube videos. Gotta believe everything on the interbalz

 

Made an unusual sound. Seems to be gone now that the pullys are all back on and tight.

 

 

Bought a Kartboy short shifter for the 5 mt swap. I should probably focus on the engine.

[ATTACH]240561[/ATTACH]

[freaksavior]

Log from this morning.

 

Removed a header heat shield that was rattling. The nut that's part of the shield sheered off. Also replaced the pully for the ac compressor with a gates pully and belt.

 

 

BtSsm_20161113_065303_knock.csv

[rhino6303]

Log from this morning.

 

Removed a header heat shield that was rattling. The nut that's part of the shield sheered off. Also replaced the pull for the ac compressor with a gates pully and belt.

 

[ATTACH]240667[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]240668[/ATTACH]

Is your log showing ecu afr or wideband afr?

 

In the cases of flkc in your log they are all under mid throttle and low to medium boost. The timing looks fine.

 

Your maf scaling may need work and you might change your A/F learning D threshold to be higher or turn off A/F learning comoletely at like 40g/s.

 

I say this because your learning view shows your D learning at -4.00 and this isn't really that bad but anytime you are above 50 g/s (which probably won't be closed loop), you're ecu is pulling fuel and you could be too lean. Because 50 g/s isn't really in closed loop, you're pulling fuel during boost which could potentially be why you're knocking.

 

I'd look at your fueling and tune for your fueling first.

[freaksavior]

Is your log showing ecu afr or wideband afr?

 

This is ECU reported AFR, I can do one through romraider with the wideband if that would help.

 

In the cases of flkc in your log they are all under mid throttle and low to medium boost. The timing looks fine.

 

Your maf scaling may need work and you might change your A/F learning D threshold to be higher or turn off A/F learning comoletely at like 40g/s.

 

I say this because your learning view shows your D learning at -4.00 and this isn't really that bad but anytime you are above 50 g/s (which probably won't be closed loop), you're ecu is pulling fuel and you could be too lean. Because 50 g/s isn't really in closed loop, you're pulling fuel during boost which could potentially be why you're knocking.

 

I'd look at your fueling and tune for your fueling first.

 

Appreciate you taking a look at it. Since fuel is fluctuating, could that be an o2 sensor like mtbwrench suggested, or possible the maf?

[rhino6303]

This is ECU reported AFR, I can do one through romraider with the wideband if that would help.

 

 

 

Appreciate you taking a look at it. Since fuel is fluctuating, could that be an o2 sensor like mtbwrench suggested, or possible the maf?

 

Do you have tgv deletes? If so, look into using the 5V plug as your reference for the wideband. Then you can use btssm to log wideband through your tgv input.

 

It would be nice to have a log with both afr and wideband. If the log can be a low to high rpm short drive it might also be helpful. Obviously if it starts to knock during the drive, stop the pull.

 

I don't think it is your afr sensor. Your fuel trims would be worse than they are.

 

My personal opinion is that your maf scaling in the tune and/or target afr table might need work. It should have been adjusted after installing the perrin injectors and fuel pump but may need adjusting.

 

Stock or aftermarket intake?

[freaksavior]

Do you have tgv deletes? If so, look into using the 5V plug as your reference for the wideband. Then you can use btssm to log wideband through your tgv input.

 

I do not.

 

It would be nice to have a log with both afr and wideband. If the log can be a low to high rpm short drive it might also be helpful. Obviously if it starts to knock during the drive, stop the pull.

I'll grab the laptop later and go cruise and do a short pull. Hopefully I haven't burnt out my wb.

 

I don't think it is your afr sensor. Your fuel trims would be worse than they are.

 

My personal opinion is that your maf scaling in the tune and/or target afr table might need work. It should have been adjusted after installing the perrin injectors and fuel pump but may need adjusting.

 

The MAF in the intake is probably 5+ years old. I bought another off Amazon but it died witin a year and was providing horrible readings. o2, not really sure how old it is. I believe it was replaced around 2 years ago.

 

Stock or aftermarket intake?

 

Stock intake box with perrin inlet.

 

Keep in mind Dave @ Cry has been tuning it, so it's fairly unlikely it's the tune.

 

Thanks again for the help.

 

BtSsm_20161113_154207_knock.csv

[freaksavior]

Here's a log with the wb

 

romraiderlog_20161113_180244.csv

 

[freaksavior]

Its no longer blaring red for the LV, but it looks like it may still have low load knock from what I understand.

 

More wb logs?

 

edit: I was thinking it's time to shoot some logs over to Dave anyway

[cryo]

Just popped back into this thread. Keep in mind that we have not been focused on calibrating for power since we started to see so much low load knock and have been 100% looking into the cause of that instead. The maf scaling is still being worked on and such but the car was dropping tons of low load timing regardless of us pulling or adding timing in. When I see that I stop trying to dial in anything but cruise/low load to verify we are not going to spit engine components out the tail pipe during a WOT pull.

 

Shoot those logs to me and we can compare them to prior logs before you found some of the issues you have remedied.

 

Thanks!

 

Dave

[freaksavior]

Dave I'll get some logs over to you soon. I'm trying to deal with one more issue first.

 

I did finally replace the obd2 port. Now I can actually log without it dropping every 30 seconds.

 

Right now it's pulling some crazy retarded timing, and i've been in limp mode for a few days. I dropped a socket down under the engine and I think it may be trapped and rattling.

 

Eek.

[cryo]

Your IAM is at 0.00. Thats showing the ecu doing everything it can to reduce timing and still pulling 8 degrees of timing....i would check that knock sensor for sure if your not hearing audible knock from the engine at that point.

 

Dave

[west_minist]

The EGR is still in?

[freaksavior]

The EGR is still in?

 

It was removed when the invidia up-pipe was added. The bung was welded shut.

 

I did try swapping in a manual ecu into my auto, and then proceeded to watch it not start, so I put it back. It was fun wasting an hour.

 

@Dave - First congrats on the spec b! I bet that was exciting.

I'm almost positive there's something rattling in the engine bay, so I need to find out what's rattling first.

[freaksavior]

Alrighty, so I got under the car and found nothing loose. i poked around the top, found nothing loose.

 

Yesterday I noticed the car was making the tick/knock like sound again. Started in the morning and happened every time I started the car. So, i've parked the wagon. It's likely going to sit for a few months until I can scrape funds to rebuild it.

 

I'm nearly positive i have a spun bearing. Going to at least tear it down in the next week or two.

[west_minist]

What is the AVCS in that area?

 

Usually int he EJ207, any issues with valvetrain can trigger int hat area.

 

Is the exhaust timing good at stock?

[cryo]

He is currently on a map that has been molested to try and rid the timing correction from a tuning stand point. We have made adjustments positive and negative with no change. Also its an ej255 usdm engine.

 

It was reacting the same way with base settings that hundreds of other cars ran just fine on. Unfortunately its mechanical in nature and not related to the tune itself.

 

Dave

[west_minist]

No not stating its the tune itself, but the area of concern for elimination of factors.

 

Well we will all standby and monitor for results.

[OUBob]

Isn't retarded timing normal? Pretty much all of my street cars will retard nearly 12 degrees under load. Then advance when you lift.

 

I'll standby and learn me some turbo tuning.