Darth SpecB Posted March 1, 2017 Author Share Posted March 1, 2017 Check and make sure the AVCS cam gears were assembled correctly. That problem pop's up every now and then. Good Luck http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/cams-eternally-broken-lgt-oil-cannon-256514.html The AVCS gears were cleaned by a local mechanic who specializes in EJ25 engines. I would hope that he reassembled them correctly considering I could have done a better job myself if I bought the security bit. The one thing I didn't do myself could be the missing link! I'm hoping to utilize BTSSM to measure cam angles according to FSM to see if that is my issue. Cleaned the MAF and found the oil leak coming from the fresh valve cover gasket. I gave the bolt in that corner 1/8 turn to see if it helps. If not I will repull the engine and rtv the whole gasket mating surface. I pulled turbo oil feed line and started it for 1 second. I lost about a quart of oil and my driveway is a mess. I wouldn't recommend this method to anyone but at least I know I have good flow feeding the turbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Cleaned the MAF and found the oil leak coming from the fresh valve cover gasket. I gave the bolt in that corner 1/8 turn to see if it helps. If not I will repull the engine and rtv the whole gasket mating surface. I pulled turbo oil feed line and started it for 1 second. I lost about a quart of oil and my driveway is a mess. I wouldn't recommend this method to anyone but at least I know I have good flow feeding the turbo. Careful with those valve cover bolts. They are necked down and once they seat, all you get for torquing them any more is to strip out the threads in the heads. Of your nice expensive castings. If it leaks, pull it and reseal, following the factory recommended placement of sealant on the ramps and over the half moons. You cannot increase the pressure on the gasket by putting more torque on the bolts. The time to verify oil pressure at the turbo is when you do the `crank with the plugs out' test prior to first startup. If you don't see oil pretty quick at the business end, then you don't want to start up anyway. It is enough to slack off the copper washers (crack the line) rather than taking the line right off. If there is pressure (with cold oil) you'll see it immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 Careful with those valve cover bolts. They are necked down and once they seat, all you get for torquing them any more is to strip out the threads in the heads. Of your nice expensive castings. If it leaks, pull it and reseal, following the factory recommended placement of sealant on the ramps and over the half moons. You cannot increase the pressure on the gasket by putting more torque on the bolts. The time to verify oil pressure at the turbo is when you do the `crank with the plugs out' test prior to first startup. If you don't see oil pretty quick at the business end, then you don't want to start up anyway. It is enough to slack off the copper washers (crack the line) rather than taking the line right off. If there is pressure (with cold oil) you'll see it immediately. Well I wish I knew this ahead of time, as I was just improvising! That method makes way more sense. I'm glad I've got tons of pressure. I was very careful with turning the bolt just a tad. However if worst comes to worst, I'm ready for another helicoil. My heads do not have half moons btw. I'm still getting a major oil leak. Enough to have smoke coming from the hoodscoop. Time to pull the downpipe and check out the oil return. I'm proposing to use a hose from auto parts store over oem since I can get 1 foot for around 5 bucks and just cut to size. My only fear is that the quality of the hose may not be fit to be oil/heat resistant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 There are very few people who can competently take apart the AVCS gears and put them back together correctly. Subaru considers them a non fixable item, they are replace with new only. See: https://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/avcs-cam-gear-services/avcs-cam-gear-servicing When I rebuilt my Spec B I failed to replace the AVCS gears with new ones. Mine didn't throw a code, but when I went to Cobb for a tune they could see the cams were not responding correctly, they were literally stuck. (It's in my Spec B rebuild thread). I had to put in new ones. The good news is that you probably haven't damaged the engine. I've never heard of the stuck AVCS gears causing damage, just codes and limp mode. I'm curious, what heads don't have half moons? Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted March 2, 2017 Author Share Posted March 2, 2017 There are very few people who can competently take apart the AVCS gears and put them back together correctly. Subaru considers them a non fixable item, they are replace with new only. See: https://www.outfrontmotorsports.com/avcs-cam-gear-services/avcs-cam-gear-servicing When I rebuilt my Spec B I failed to replace the AVCS gears with new ones. Mine didn't throw a code, but when I went to Cobb for a tune they could see the cams were not responding correctly, they were literally stuck. (It's in my Spec B rebuild thread). I had to put in new ones. The good news is that you probably haven't damaged the engine. I've never heard of the stuck AVCS gears causing damage, just codes and limp mode. I'm curious, what heads don't have half moons? I spoke with the guy who reassembled my cam gears and he claims that they were aligned and put together correctly. He does it all the time with no issues. There is no way to tell for sure unless I get an access port or something to read the cam angles. I reused my timing belt assembly since it had 17k miles on it but it could have stretched and messed up the timing a bit. I will pull the cover off and take a look. BTW I have D25 heads. I was stumbling looking for the half moons as well. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted March 6, 2017 Author Share Posted March 6, 2017 Well I found my problem. The timing belt skipped a tooth or two on the passenger side. intake cam is off a bit. I reused my timing belt and tensioner. Hopefully no valves are bent! I plan on ordering aisin timing belt kit from rock auto for $255.99. How's that for a deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnWR Posted March 6, 2017 Share Posted March 6, 2017 I ordered mine when rock auto was out of them i had to fork over 280 but it was well worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted March 17, 2017 Author Share Posted March 17, 2017 Well I installed the aisin timing belt kit, but I left the water pump on seeing as it only has 17k miles on it. Started it up and it runs great! Drove it to work today and no CELs so far. They usually come halfway through my drive. Took me a while to get it lined up with the engine in car. I pray I fixed the problem and don't have to pull the cam gears off. Last time it took 60 miles or so for the code to show up. Had my signature put on as a sign of a self built motor. Gold timing belt cover, because I think it makes her look pretty! Now I just need to address turbo oil return leak, and radiator fan not coming on! Feels great to drive Nisrina again! I got plenty of looks driving through the city today. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 It seems my issue continues. My codes popped back up on the drive to work today. History: I was really careful mating the AVCS gears to the camshaft to ensure dowel pin was seated correctly. I even spun the intake cams until I felt spring resistance before tightening the 10mm hex bolts. Learning from Cslenker's (Cam's) post. Eventually I will have to pull them off to see what is going on. My theory is that the AVCS was indeed reassembled incorrectly. All related components were cleaned, or replaced with new OEM so I am stumbled at this point. Next step is to find a way to read the cam angles to see if the timing is being adjusted accordingly. Any tips to what I may be missing will be greatly appreciated! Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StkmltS Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Bummer dude. If you do pull off the AVCS gears, how will you inspect them to find out if they're the problem or not? Is the turbo oil return line what's leaking? I'm all for using generic hose from local auto parts stores. Just don't use heater hose, make sure it's designed for oil (they're not the same, that's all I know). I don't like seeing smoke coming from my engine bay, but I HATE engine codes. With smoke you can usually pop the hood and see exactly where the problem is. Engine codes could be any one of a bazillion problems. I know they're great and can save your engine, but I still hate seeing them. My DiySB rebuild Got Misfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted March 20, 2017 Author Share Posted March 20, 2017 Bummer dude. If you do pull off the AVCS gears, how will you inspect them to find out if they're the problem or not? Is the turbo oil return line what's leaking? I'm all for using generic hose from local auto parts stores. Just don't use heater hose, make sure it's designed for oil (they're not the same, that's all I know). I don't like seeing smoke coming from my engine bay, but I HATE engine codes. With smoke you can usually pop the hood and see exactly where the problem is. Engine codes could be any one of a bazillion problems. I know they're great and can save your engine, but I still hate seeing them. My plan is to access a ROM raider and tactrix cable or BTSSM to read live feed to see if the cams are adjusting correctly per FSM. Before pulling the gears ofcourse. Researching this problem I have found a few underlying issues that may cause this. 1. Dirty oil (sludge) or incorrect viscosity I am using 5w30, and my oil was flushed 20 minutes after running the engine after rebuild. The oil came out very clean. A new filter was used as well. 2. Blocked oil passages. (Insufficient oil pressure) Both of the oil lines supplying AVCS were flushed using brake clean. All banjo bolt filters were removed, so full oil pressure should be reaching the gears. I have not found a way to read the oil pressure going to AVCS except to see if they are adjusting properly. 3. Faulty Oil Control Valve Solenoid(s) Both of mine were replaced with brand new OEM. Part#: 10921AA020 4. Improper assembly of AVCS cam gear to cam shaft. I was meticulous about seating the dowel pin on the cam nose into the gear. I even rotated the gear before applying torque to the bolt, until I felt spring resistance indicating that the gear and camshaft are indeed connected. 5. Sign of possible turbo failure I verified pressure is going to the turbo. Zero shaft play. Banjo Bolt Delete. 6. Timing Off I used a new timing belt kit in case my old belt was stretched or tensioner was not functioning. 7. Incorrect alignment/assembly of the AVCS gear. This seems to be my main target since it was the only part of the project I did not oversee. I paid a subaru mechanic to take apart the gears with the 5 lobe torx bit and he used a parts washer to clean out debris/sludge. However when asked if he had aligned them correctly, he stated that there is nothing to align except for seating the dowel pin on the 3 puck rotor. This leads me to believe the gear may be binding since no camshaft was inserted to ensure the gear was torqued down concentric. Reference: outfront motorsports There is a possibility I may have damaged the gear completely when I hammered a bolt extractor onto the bolt to remove the 10mm hex. If I'm not missing anything, my results point to the actual gears themselves. If I find they are indeed binding my options are to send them to outfront motorsports for a correct reassembly, or just purchase two new ones. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow_419 Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 I think you're probably correct in narrowing it down to the cam gear being improperly reassembled. I wasn't brave enough to even consider taking mine apart (4 in my case). I just soaked and flushed with parts cleaner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 A few drives and some logs I have noticed that my cam gears only advance 3-4 degrees at 3000 rpm. Time to pull the gears apart and hopefully they are salvageable. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Good luck, I'm not sure you can reuse them... 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 On reassembly of cam gears, be aware that the bore in the backplate is slightly bigger than the diameter of the cam nose. You really need to turn a mandrel with a step in it. I did something like this with my gears HERE (post #45). Without that, the backplate can still go on a little wobbly. The might cause problems with internal rotation of the gear (what you suspect), but will also stress out the oil seal that runs on the outside of the backplate. It would be hard to mess up the internal assembly of the gear, although there are some springs and pins in there that need to be put back correctly. In the event that got messed up, I would expect the gear to not be active at all. You have some movement, so probably that is not the issue. The other thing to watch out for is the seal at the backplate. A leak there could be another place to look, although it will be a big mess if that is the case. The movement of the gears is a little bit of a mystery to me, to be honest. I'm not sure it is just RPM related. I don't have access to my logs at the moment, but it seems to me the advance moves around quite a lot. In your shoes, before tearing everything apart, I'd pull some data and post the logs with rpm, timing and load, to see what some of the x'perts have to say. It you do end up pulling it all apart, maybe just buy new ones and be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted March 30, 2017 Author Share Posted March 30, 2017 Well I took your advice and took some logs. I cannot pull through car apart until Sunday since it's my daily to get to work. Actually I'm not exactly sure how to share a log. Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 I can't seem to slide the cam gear off for some reason. Has anyone else experienced this? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 I had to use a crank pulley puller to get it off. It seems the mechanic I paid to clean and reassemble did not even take them apart!! There is gunk in there that I doubt came from 300 miles of driving. There is also a tiny bit of bearing debris left over hard to see in pictures. I must say I am pretty pissed... Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 I've not heard of having to use a bearing puller to get them off before.....FWIW, mine had a lot more gunk in them than that though. Are you going to send them to Outfront or buy new ones? Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 I've not heard of having to use a bearing puller to get them off before.....FWIW, mine had a lot more gunk in them than that though. Are you going to send them to Outfront or buy new ones? I was just as surprised as anyone would be. I couldn't find any threads of it happening to anyone else either. I guess I'm that lucky case. I tried everything from a rubber mallet, penetrating oil, to a pry bar. It seems there was a coat of oil on the mating surfaces that caused a suction effect. The first time I took them off they slid off no problem. Well I cleaned them out and reassembled according to the few threads that I found. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary when I had them apart. The plunger still worked. I'm hoping this solves the problem. If not I plan on buying new ones. I ran out of daylight, so first thing in the morning I will report back after she's all together. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 The driver side (left bank) vvt is moving freely. Adjust angle with rpm. I noticed when reinstalling the clips and springs in the passenger side gear there was a lot of resistance going in. Maybe the gear is warped? 1 side down 1 side to go. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 The driver side (left bank) vvt is moving freely. Adjust angle with rpm. I noticed when reinstalling the clips and springs in the passenger side gear there was a lot of resistance going in. Maybe the gear is warped? 1 side down 1 side to go. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Unless you like pain, I'd suggest buying a new one asap. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 5, 2017 Author Share Posted April 5, 2017 Unless you like pain, I'd suggest buying a new one asap. Today my vvt miraculously started working for both sides!! Maybe higher pressure from a few cold starts dislodged the gear. I'm happy. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted April 5, 2017 Share Posted April 5, 2017 Lets hope its fixed. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted April 5, 2017 Author Share Posted April 5, 2017 I'm only worried that since the gears were not properly cleaned by the mechanic that my new motor will be taken out from the previous bearing material making its way into my engine. Hopefully it was isolated In the gears and did not circulate into my new bearings. I will do an oil change tomorrow and see if there is any copper in it. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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