Grimmspeed TMIC for 5th Gen GT

[BBPeik]

In regards to the charge temp and timing retard. This is what I have learned through my recent tuning experience. We do not have the MAT sensor, but our cars do retard based on IAT(mind you I wish I had a MAT so I could see the difference with the new IC). If the air coming into the engine is hot there is a scale that it retards the timing from. Given our recent hot weather I have seen this a lot lately. The other day in traffic my IAT was at 158. DAM slowly dropped to compensate. Came back up again later when I started moving and IAt dropped.

[Zee199969]

Holy crap. 158 IAT? I thought me hitting upper 120s low 130s was bad enough

[BBPeik]

I hit 120 to 130 a lot. It was 107 and I was in traffic yesterday, hence the high IAT. You have to drive very calmly in those kind of temps.

[GrimmSpeed]

Yeah it's been ridiculously hot everywhere it seems the last two weeks. I personally am not built for this type of weather!

 

But with regards to the post I wrote yesterday (Thanks for sharing over here GTEASER!) the same logic applies, and it wasn't an FA ECU specific design idea, but rather a general rule of thumb with regards to the charge air temps.

 

High IATs will have timing automatically pulled for sure, and I believe that is true for both the 5th gen Legacy EJ and the FA. The FA has the slight advantage of having the additional sensor in the intake manifold to further prevent knock. But if the charge air is cool enough, it won't pull timing there.

 

And just the same for the EJ though, except instead of preemptively pulling timing it will pull timing if it knocks in the form of a dropping DAM. BUT a lower charge air temperature will help prevent this from happening.

 

So in essence what I'm saying is keeping the charge air temperatures cooler is an effective tactic for keeping your power consistent, despite the fact that there is no temperature sensor in the intake manifold.

 

And with that said, our TMIC is good insurance on a stock/stockish car. But it's even better for a protuned car, where your tuner can manually increase timing and other parameters to take advantage of the additional cooling and consistency.

 

Chase

Engineering

[fredrik94087]

Chase, do you have a list for your TMIC and CP combo?

 

I want to get both and protune once.

 

EDIT: I have a 2015 WRX with Mishi tmic.

[GTEASER]

Chase, do you have a list for your TMIC and CP combo?

 

I want to get both and protune once.

 

EDIT: I have a 2015 WRX with Mishi tmic.

 

GB on NASIOC is linked in the first post.

[Zee199969]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=44568094

 

Now thinking I should get the AVO CP and call it an early bday/Xmas gift for the next couple of years lol

[Perscitus]

Yeah, as Chase explained above our 5th gens (all engine flavors using 32bit Denso ECUs and standard MAF and MAP sensors) will pull or add timing globally based on a number of temp compensation tables... engine coolant temp, intake air temp, engine oil temp. By default (stock table values) timing is added globally when the temps (especially coolant and intake air temp) are very low, say below 40F. Then there is a large zone of zero adjustment and eventually as the temps get hot enough (say intake air temp above 100F, coolant above 230F, etc) timing is globally pulled out.

This is of course done incrementally... 0.35 or 0.5, 1 degree per every 10-15F past a certain point.

 

Of course this is a safety mechanism and can be tweaked beyond stock settings to (for example) add less or no extra timing at cold temps and pull more timing or pull timing more drastically as things heat up on a tuned car.

 

Subarus Knock Prevention strategy works in conjunction but also independently of these temp compensations (as outlined in our Knock sticky thread). What this boils down to is that as intake temps reach say 140F, the corresponding timing compensation table might be pulling enough timing that knock is kept at bay or minimized without FKC, FLKC reaching higher valuea or RC or PKC ever kicking in (this is good). But in reality, and somewhat unknown to the end user... the car is pulling 1, 2, 3 degrees of timing globally just as if RC kicked in and dropped IAM from 1.0 to say 0.95 or 0.85.

 

So yes, keeping IAT and charge temps within the zero compensation zone is ideal for power consistency, tuning consistency, logging consistency... makes for a well-rounded tune and power delivery.

 

With the FA20DIT and other current-gen Subarus that have switched to 32bit Hitachi ECUs (newer MAF sensor design, IAT and Charge Temp sensors, MAP sensors, )... Knock Strategy works a bit different (mainly RC, which is far more active, aggressive and has mostly replaced FLKC). IAM is supposed to by more dynamic, changing more during driving cycles, with each ignition cycle, etc.

[fahr_side]

Yes. The RacerX unit was thrown together quickly without any real testing to get a product for us 5th Gen GTs that was better than the OEM TMIC. Grimmspeed has been working on this for well over a year, flow testing multiple fin count cores, and designing end tanks that flow well, in order to get the best cooling and least pressure drop across the core, and running their design iterations on a Stage2 car for months at a time in different ambient temperature situations. Overall, the pressure drop across the GS TMIC is lower than the RacerX at higher boost levels, and the cooling is better as well. I encourage you to read the thread that is linked. It also links to another thread where the RacerX was the direct comparison. WGDC was much lower on the GS TMIC because of the increased efficiency.

 

 

 

Just remember that GS were developing on a car with a hood scoop about twice the size of the one on your BM9

 

 

Terrible things like this don't happen where I came from. Other terrible things happen instead.

[dohclgt]

Maybe I should really consider this... because this temp is unacceptable.

[Sarang]

Maybe I should really consider this... because this temp is unacceptable.

 

I don't think that this would affect that, iat is measured at the maf and this would help lower charged air temps after the tmic (and long after the maf)

[fahr_side]

With the FA20DIT and other current-gen Subarus that have switched to 32bit Hitachi ECUs (newer MAF sensor design, IAT and Charge Temp sensors, MAP sensors, )... Knock Strategy works a bit different (mainly RC, which is far more active, aggressive and has mostly replaced FLKC). IAM is supposed to by more dynamic, changing more during driving cycles, with each ignition cycle, etc.

 

 

It's also worth noting that boost targets are reduced dramatically at higher IATs as a further effort to control knock.

 

The 5th gen LGT stock tunes also feature base timing so aggressive in some areas that IAM seems to rarely sit at 1.0 for long. I'm dead against this strategy of pushing the motor to knock, dropping IAM to stop that, then pushing past the knock threshold again. I guess Subaru have to do this in order to run every car at max timing at all times in order to pass emissions, but it's still a horrible way to treat an engine.

 

 

 

Terrible things like this don't happen where I came from. Other terrible things happen instead.

[Perscitus]

Maybe I should really consider this... because this temp is unacceptable.

Not all that uncommon depending on what was happening when you took the pic. Stock intake? What conditions? Ambient temp, how long after warm/hot start or the engine had reached operating temps, were you moving or stuck in traffic/idling, what temp do you see when say at a sustained 30/40mph vs 60/70mph?

 

I don't think that this would affect that, iat is measured at the maf and this would help lower charged air temps after the tmic (and long after the maf)

Correct. In this scenario, if at speed with ample air flowing through the GS intercooler, the charge temp would likely be. Still 'warm' but far lower than without one. Remember that the IAT is captured at the MAF, pre-turbo. What would be interesting to see is hot-side (post turbo) and cold-side (throttle body) thermocouple readings on a stock vs a GS intercooler at idle, at 30/40mph, at 60/70mph and varying ambient temps and IATs.

 

To a certain point, IAT is not all that important on a boosted Subaru since the air charge temp post turbo is always much higher regardless of if your IAT is reading 60F, 90F or 120F. It does help if its low/lower to begin with, but what matters more is how far that hot-side air charge temp can drop by the time its on the cold-side of the intercooler, about to enter the intake manifold and cylinders.

 

Ideally, you would want your cold-side air charge temp to be < or = to ambient or at least ~ at-speed IAT. This of course would mean the intercooler was able to remove as much heat as practically possible with just an air to air (through a metal interface) setup.

[fahr_side]

 

To a certain point, IAT is not all that important on a boosted Subaru since the air charge temp post turbo is always much higher regardless of if your IAT is reading 60F, 90F or 120F. It does help if its low/lower to begin with, but what matters more is how far that hot-side air charge temp can drop by the time its on the cold-side of the intercooler, about to enter the intake manifold and cylinders.

Subaru seem to have opted for the cheap and easy way of doing things on this on the non-STi trim EJ models. They are basically using their experimental data to estimate what post-IC temps will be at various loads and pre-turbo temps. They know the compressor and intercooling efficiencies at various points on scale dictated by the boost targets set in the stock maps and they've done the measurements. It works well enough when they're only going for specific outputs around the 100bhp per liter mark. They know well enough that there is a lot less safety margin left for that kind of uncertainty when going much above that, which is why the STi models, and no doubt the FA series as well, get the manifold temperature sensors.

[dohclgt]

Not all that uncommon depending on what was happening when you took the pic. Stock intake? What conditions? Ambient temp, how long after warm/hot start or the engine had reached operating temps, were you moving or stuck in traffic/idling, what temp do you see when say at a sustained 30/40mph vs 60/70mph?

 

 

This was me driving back from vegas. The temperature was around 119 degrees, yes it was extremely hot this week. I was moving maybe around 55 mph 5th gear on s las vegas blvd to this colorful rock sight. Stock intake, and I have been driving for roughly 30 mins when I took that picture.

 

BTW I saw my coolant temperature at 230 for the first time on the AP.. got scared a bit but the car was fine. It fluctuated up and down but 230 was the highest I've seen. Is that something I should be concern about in the future?

[Sarang]

I wondered that too. My research indicates that above 240 for extended periods is bad. I think the light comes on at 245.

Lately my car keeps between 200-210 in the city, with more like 190-200 on the freeway. This is with ambient temps around 110.

On my recent road trip from Phoenix to Denver area, I found that on some mountain climbs at highway speeds my temps would rise alarmingly fast, so I decided to downshift at 212 which seemed to help. It was funny, with the altitude I ended up having to downshift way more often than I'm used to.

[GTEASER]

bump

 

Group Buy ends on Monday August 8.

[GTEASER]

111 have signed up on the GB as of today, and only 2 are LGT owners.

 

Poor turnout gentlemen.

 

[Sarang]

I'm poor!

[GTEASER]

I'm poor!

 

Me too but I don't let that stop me. I sold a set of wheels to buy this.

[FLlegacy]

111 have signed up on the GB as of today, and only 2 are LGT owners.

 

Poor turnout gentlemen.

 

 

2 out of roughly 2700 5th gens IIRC vs 109 out of probably 40k+ wrx sales since the 2015 was released...lol all about perspective.

[FLlegacy]

Me too but I don't let that stop me. I sold a set of wheels to buy this.

I would weigh the cost and benefit vs a fmic kit which isn't much more and should be more efficient.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

[GTEASER]

I would weigh the cost and benefit vs a fmic kit which isn't much more and should be more efficient.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

 

It doesn't make sense for me, living in Socialist, Bleeding Heart, Over-Sensative Environmental Greenie California with very strict emissions laws and monitoring, to go thru the hassle of removing and reinstalling an FMIC every 2 years to pass a smog inspection. That's why I want the best TMIC possible, and BONUS, it fits under the factory engine cover so I don't clue off the smog technicians that there be aftermarket parts on this here car.

 

Since our cat is pretty buried and difficult to even see, the TMIC will be hidden under the engine cover and looks pretty stock that way, and my car isn't obnoxiously loud, I am betting I can easily pass both the OBDII hookup AND the visual inspection at Stage2 no questions asked, and there's no sweat off my back swapping things out just for the inspection.

 

One day, probably when I am nearing retirement, I will have 2 complete motors. One stock running Stage1 or Stage2 and one built, a Stage3+ forged internals motor running a huge turbo and FMIC, and I will have the time to swap the whole shabang every two years. I don't have that kinda time right now.

[Sarang]

That is actually my thought too. If I didn't already have an upgraded tmic and a lack of spending money, I would really consider buying a fmic and spending some time to make it work.

 

On the other hand, this tmic is beautiful and the easy fitment is great. I love that they replace the weird shaped throttle body coupler with an easy straight coupler, that will make install way less frustrating.

[BBPeik]

I felt kinda the same way. My IC an CP are really easy to swap. No one will ever see the fuel pump and injectors. The turbo looks stock. The only tricky part will be going back to the stock cat, but even that is really easy. I am willing to suffer for 400hp.