Call to Action

[Austin2.5i]

There's been a lot of discussion recently about the Legacy's sub-par side impact crash test results, and I think it's about time that we join forces and take this matter to Subaru. Let me dispell some rumors first. 1. The Legacy CAN be compared to other midsized sedans regarding this "double test" The only thing the IIHS means by this term is that both side and frontal impact tests were conducted (on two cars) during the same time period, and the results were released at the same time. The side impact test of the Legacy is identical to the Camry, Accord, etc.. 2. The Legacy didn't do well at all considering only 5 sedans tested had any kind of side airbags, and the Legacy finished 4 of 5 against this competition. Not to mention it got beat by a Chevy! C'mon, Subaru. Now, why should we both to take this issue to Subaru? Isn't the Legacy "safe enough"? The bottom line is that Subaru has botched something in it's design, and it's causing torso ratings for the front passengers to be poor. And yet, the car has a side seat airbag specifically designed to protect the torso. Interestingly, the Forester earned good marks in side impact ratings, and it's an older design. Maybe Subaru should have put a torso/head airbag in the Legacy like they did in the Forester. And we can't blame the poor rating on the safety cage, as it's plenty strong. We have nothing to lose by taking this matter to Subaru, and everything to gain. Who's with me on this? Let's make them listen to us and give us a safer airbag. It might save one or more of us a lot of pain down the road. (We should demand this because I'm sure each one of us who bought the Legacy felt it would be one of the safest cars on the road. Fact is, on paper it really should be. And to those of you who say this test doesn't reflect a "real-life" crash, I say this: Why can Subaru make the Forester do well in all crash tests (IIHS, NHTSA, and Aussie), but the newer Legacy can't?)

[outahere]

FWIW, Toyota has recently issued a safety recall on over 100,000 Camrys manufactured from 2002-2004, to inspect the side curtain airbag, and replace if necessary. [url]http://www.recall-warnings.com/auto-content-50100.html[/url]

[Austin2.5i]

I just emailed Subaru expressing my concerns about the IIHS test. If there's lots of interest, I think we should get a petition started so that Subaru will be pressured into taking some action. It'll be interesting to see how Subaru responds to my email (if they do at all).

[jk]

instead of waiting for a petition, i suggest that EACH INDIVIDUAL go to subaru.com and use "contact us" to send their individual message about this problem. individual messages will make a bigger impact than a petition,

[apexjapan]

Actually, I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the test was new, in that they simulated a side impact by an SUV. I would like some clarification on that particular issue before going any further. And actually, I bought it because it was the best performance 4-door that I could buy for my money. If I wanted utter safety and nothing else, I would have bought a volvo, or likely would just ride the train. Besides - in the australian and japanese tests, it scored quite high in the side impact tests. I think it has something to do with being tested in conditions that does not assume everybody else is driving an SUV. I think I've seen 12 or so in the last year... Cheers, Paul Hansen

[Opie]

Paul you are correct, the "new" test simulates an SUV impact into the side of the Legacy, IIHS is posting the results of the new tests and comparing them with cars that were tested with the old test. IIHS won't even post the test "condiditons" on their site, it's not apples to apples for sure.

[scubie02]

Maybe its just my age, but this isn't something I'm all that bent out of shape about. A fair amount of the cars around when I was a kid didn't even have SEATBELTS, to say anything of airbags. If they had seatbelts, you probably didn't know it because nobody wore one. And no "crumple zones" or anything--as Jay Leno said, you had an accident, they scraped you off the dash and sold the car to the next person... I don't worry about bridges collapsing while I'm going over them either *shrug*.

[praedet]

I think that I might worry if a problem shows up here, [url]http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/ncap/[/url], but until they test it, documenting their current procedure vs. past procedures, I am not worried about it. The forester did well, but it was not necessarily the same test, and the forester is taller by a good bit. Ted

[Throttlejockey]

[quote name='scubie02']Maybe its just my age, but this isn't something I'm all that bent out of shape about. A fair amount of the cars around when I was a kid didn't even have SEATBELTS, to say anything of airbags. If they had seatbelts, you probably didn't know it because nobody wore one. And no "crumple zones" or anything--as Jay Leno said, you had an accident, they scraped you off the dash and sold the car to the next person... I don't worry about bridges collapsing while I'm going over them either *shrug*.[/quote] Same here. If it failed a crash test you'd have something to bitch about.

[IwannaSportSedan]

[quote name='Throttlejockey'][quote name='scubie02']Maybe its just my age, but this isn't something I'm all that bent out of shape about... I don't worry about bridges collapsing while I'm going over them either *shrug*.[/quote] Same here. If it failed a crash test you'd have something to bitch about.[/quote] Not to just simply be a Mee-too, but I have to agree with these folks. My views are well documented in the original thread about this, so I won't go into them here. Just a question, but why are there 3 or 4 threads about this?

[zcarmob]

Well at least the rear suspension stayed on and it didn't roll over like the saturn vue.

[Austin2.5i]

It's my fault that there's so many posts about this, because the crash test got me really concerned - I thought with this last one that we might get something together to bring to Subaru's attention. It looks like my concern isn't shared by others on the forum, so I think I'll approach Subaru solo on this one. Enjoy the new car, everyone. I'm still loving it more each time I drive it.

[NoblePrawn]

[quote name='Austin2.5i']It's my fault that there's so many posts about this, because the crash test got me really concerned - I thought with this last one that we might get something together to bring to Subaru's attention. It looks like my concern isn't shared by others on the forum, so I think I'll approach Subaru solo on this one. Enjoy the new car, everyone. I'm still loving it more each time I drive it.[/quote] I do think there are others that share your concern. I certainly do. [quote name='IwannaSportSedan']Just a question, but why are there 3 or 4 threads about this?[/quote] I did understand the first 2 threads as different, but there is another [url=http://www.legacysti.com/viewtopic.php?t=1765]thread[/url] here that is very much the same as this one. Is there anyway we can glom them together? -NP

[Dr. Zevil]

[quote name='apexjapan']Actually, I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the test was new, in that they simulated a side impact by an SUV. I would like some clarification on that particular issue before going any further. And actually, I bought it because it was the best performance 4-door that I could buy for my money. If I wanted utter safety and nothing else, I would have bought a volvo, or likely would just ride the train. Besides - in the australian and japanese tests, it scored quite high in the side impact tests. I think it has something to do with being tested in conditions that does not assume everybody else is driving an SUV. I think I've seen 12 or so in the last year... Cheers, Paul Hansen[/quote] My sentiments exactly... I can't believe all the worries about this on the board.. this is my first post about it because I thought it would just fade away. I doubt that anything will happen with your cars that you have now simply because a recall looks waaaay worse than some less than excellent side impact rating. SOA didn't even post a recall for a FUEL leak! The TSB's are SOA's best friend. I am not saying that your concerns are not valid, there is simply nothing that will be done about it. You should be complaining about the US's fetish with large SUV's

[NoblePrawn]

[quote name='Dr. Zevil']... The TSB's are SOA's best friend. I am not saying that your concerns are not valid, there is simply nothing that will be done about it. You should be complaining about the US's fetish with large SUV's[/quote] Dear Dr. What is a TSB? Oh and shall I complain about SUVs here or should we would start thread off in OT land? -NP

[Dr. Zevil]

TSB is a technical service bulletin and it's basically what is issued instead of a recall. It's more like a "if the customer comes and complains about this issue that you should fix it like this for free." TSB's can also be your friend as they are the key to free work being done on your car. I had a free clutch put in my WRX at 18,000 mi because I was noticing clutch shudder. It wasn't bad enough to truely bother me.. but it was there so I got a free clutch. Most times the problems are real and annoying. One last thing.. you can complain about SUV's ANYWHERE YOU LIKE! AS MUCH AS YOU LIKE! :lol:

[NoblePrawn]

So SUVs sink, suck eggs etc. I'm the last house on my street that doesn't have at least one... :oops: I shouldn't be so rough on the neighbors though the worst day last year dumped 36" of snow and the hill's at about a 35 degree pitch. Oh and you'd be hard pressed to find a house near us that doesn't have a Subaru, Audi or something else with AWD. You should see me trying to get to work in a VW bug with all seasons. Its like skiing... IN YOUR CAR! -NP

[Ken S]

[quote name='praedet']I think that I might worry if a problem shows up here, [url]http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/ncap/[/url], but until they test it, documenting their current procedure vs. past procedures, I am not worried about it. The forester did well, but it was not necessarily the same test, and the forester is taller by a good bit. Ted[/quote] That's kind of the mindset I'm in too. The IIHS side impact test differs greatly from the NHTSA test in that it uses a 5th percentile female dummy vs. an "average" adult-sized one. Both slam a deformable barrier of around 3000 lbs at about the same velocity into a stationary vehicle. I'd like to see the NHTSA side-impact test performed on the 05 Legacy before I make any broad assumptions about it's design safety. The 04 Legacy did well in the NHTSA side impact test. The 05 Legacy is based heavily on the 04 Legacy, plus Subaru has a good amount of experience with this sort of testing so the logical conclusion would be that the 05 Legacy would fare similarly. The other data I would like to see the results other vehicles that did well in the NHTSA test after being subject to the new IIHS test. I'm going to guess that we're going to see quite a shuffling in the results. Ken

[je24]

Before the Legacy came out I was close to trading in my WRX for a 2 year old BMW 330. One main reason I did not was that it did not have rear side curtain airbags (and is also why we got a Toyota Sienna over a Honda Odyssey minivan). That item is important to me since I have two small kids, and since all other Subarus have done well in crash tests, a lot of people had confidence in Subaru's ability to design a safe car. I am not saying that the new Legacy is not safe (I also want to understand more about this test and how it relates to real-world crashes, along with other crash tests that may be conducted), it is just that it is not as safe as it could be. For those without kids and do not care about this issue, remember that the IIHS has the word "Insurance" in it, and I am sure the insurance companies take into account the crash test ratings when determining insurance premiums. So even if you do not care about how the car may or may not protect you in a crash or how it performs in a controlled test, this crash test rating may well affect how much you pay each year for insurance.

[outahere]

[quote name='apexjapan']Actually, I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the test was new, in that they simulated a side impact by an SUV. I would like some clarification on that particular issue before going any further. Cheers, Paul Hansen[/quote] The IIHS side impact test, in its current configuration, has been around since the middle of 2003. The first vehicles tested were a group of 12 small SUVs. See the IIHS press release from June 2003 at this link: [url]http://www.iihs.org/news_releases/2003/pr061703.htm[/url] [quote name='apexjapan']......assume everybody else is driving an SUV. I think I've seen 12 or so in the last year... Cheers, Paul Hansen[/quote] Consider yourself blessed. Around here in southern California, I see 12 big SUVs every three minutes. To compare all 25 vehicles tested so far in the IIHS side impact test, using the current methodology, see this web page: [url]http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/SideVehSel.asp?selGenCat=2[/url]

[TAckhouse1]

TSB is a Technical Service Bulletin

[TAckhouse1]

[quote name='apexjapan'] Besides - in the australian and japanese tests, it scored quite high in the side impact tests. I think it has something to do with being tested in conditions that does not assume everybody else is driving an SUV. I think I've seen 12 or so in the last year... [/quote] Paul, I too was going to ask where you live? I seriously want to move there. You can't go anywhere in Chicago with out seeing a zillion of them. -Nick

[TAckhouse1]

[quote name='Opie']Paul you are correct, the "new" test simulates an SUV impact into the side of the Legacy, IIHS is posting the results of the new tests and comparing them with cars that were tested with the old test. IIHS won't even post the test "condiditons" on their site, it's not apples to apples for sure.[/quote] refer to outahere's post above. -Nick

[babyvoxfan]

They were revised, if you compare the Legacy to any of the vehicles aside from the new RAV4, the impact beam of the vehicle that crashes into the side of the car is higher. I believe MSNBC has a video talking about the differences. [quote name='outahere'][quote name='apexjapan']Actually, I believe it was mentioned somewhere that the test was new, in that they simulated a side impact by an SUV. I would like some clarification on that particular issue before going any further. Cheers, Paul Hansen[/quote] The IIHS side impact test, in its current configuration, has been around since the middle of 2003. The first vehicles tested were a group of 12 small SUVs. See the IIHS press release from June 2003 at this link: [url]http://www.iihs.org/news_releases/2003/pr061703.htm[/url] [quote name='apexjapan']......assume everybody else is driving an SUV. I think I've seen 12 or so in the last year... Cheers, Paul Hansen[/quote] Consider yourself blessed. Around here in southern California, I see 12 big SUVs every three minutes. To compare all 25 vehicles tested so far in the IIHS side impact test, using the current methodology, see this web page: [url]http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/SideVehSel.asp?selGenCat=2[/url][/quote]

[JoeGT]

I normally don't jump into such frivolous and controversial topics, but I've been sucked in. First, only a very limited number of vehicles have been side tested since it's inception in 2003. There are MANY different, and legitimate, ways to test side impact. You can use sleds (such as this case), but with different frontal areas, different compression/deformation characteristics, ... etc, or you could even use a 2nd vehicle (either just the front structure w/ engine or full car) to simulate a realistic deformation. To reduce costs, you can use a computer model to simulate the impact (such as finite-element analysis, FEA). However, you do need all the impact paramaters (size, shape, material strenghts ... etc of the 2nd body). Even small changes in any of the parameter can have a major impact on the final crash result. In other words, it is plausible that the Legacy could score very well on other side-impact type tests (including whatever real life tests Subaru does as part of their design process), and a lot of effort could have gone into the safety design. However, in this specific case (the IIHS test), the result was not an A, but rather a C-/D+. However, remember that it is STILL a passing grade. Since Subaru does have a history of building very safe cars, I'm sure their chassis engineering group is going to (if they haven't already) created an FEA model to simulate the IIHS side impact test, and for the next new body they introduce, it will do much better. BUT, since the 2005 Legacy came out in June/July 2004, the body design team probably had to finalize major structural design back in 2003, which probably didn't give them enough time to fully analyze and prepare for the IIHS side impact test. FYI, the neither the WRX, any Acuras, Infinitis, 350Z, Audi, VW, nor the RX-8 were even tested! Speaking of which, I do believe they did an excellent job with the reinforced door of the RX-8, but I'd love to see the IIHS results on that car (especially given the SUV/truck height of the impact)! My 2 cents