Moderators BarManBean Posted July 10, 2017 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2017 I'm sure that maybe a subie boosted motor isn't the best race motor, but what the hell is going on here? How many motors have you been through now? There really doesn't seem to be any good reason for it other than just sheer bad luck, especially on this last motor that was really supposed to be more or less "the one," right? I'm not trying to pile on here, I just don't see how you haven't had any bit of reliability out of even one of your motors. Also not reading every post here so sorry if I've missed something major. Good luck, whatever you choose! "Bullet-proof" your OEM TMIC! <<Buy your kit here>> Not currently in stock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 So what's on that list? Factory Five Type 65 (Daytona) Coupe. It misses the 2000 lb weight box by 600 lbs, but has this added bonus: When we got home from this latest debacle my Crew Chief wife was looking thru the latest Grass Roots Motorsports magazine and says "Hey Honey, how about this one? I like it!" She was looking at a Factory Five ad for the Type 65 Coupe. Must keep the Crew Chief Happy. I saw one of these at Sovren a couple of weekends ago. I had pretty much the same thought as your crew chief. Especially when the owner mentioned Coyote crate motor. In your case, you'd want to get the 427 SOHC motor to be authentic race car. I checked ebay for you (yer welcome). Looks like there might be some assembly required, however, the lot includes several heads. http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-427-SOHC-PARTS-COLLECTION-NASCAR-GASSER-SHELBY-MUSTANG-HOLMAN-MOODY-/292148498645?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275 Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted July 10, 2017 Author Share Posted July 10, 2017 I saw one of these at Sovren a couple of weekends ago. I had pretty much the same thought as your crew chief. Especially when the owner mentioned Coyote crate motor. In your case, you'd want to get the 427 SOHC motor to be authentic race car. I checked ebay for you (yer welcome). Looks like there might be some assembly required, however, the lot includes several heads. http://www.ebay.com/itm/FORD-427-SOHC-PARTS-COLLECTION-NASCAR-GASSER-SHELBY-MUSTANG-HOLMAN-MOODY-/292148498645?_trksid=p2385738.m2548.l4275 Lol, thanks for the link to the $90K engine! Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 It's not seized, it spins over fine and has fuel pressure. But it doesn't even try to sputter or cough. Like there is zero spark or zero compression. Or zero fuel. Maybe the fuel pump is shot or without power. Just check with patience everything. Or maybe you should try something less stressful, like truck trial! [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olXTEs8jtcg]Truck Trial 2016 Kiesgrube Klieken - YouTube[/ame] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted July 10, 2017 Author Share Posted July 10, 2017 Or zero fuel. Maybe the fuel pump is shot or without power. Just check with patience everything. Or maybe you should try something less stressful, like truck trial! Fuel pressure was the first thing we checked, I have a gauge on the FPR in the engine compartment. It's fine. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 Do you get the full gates blue timing belt kit or just the belt with idlers from somewhere else? The Gates Racing kit without the water pump. . I always use the OEM cast impeller pump. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 Friday Qualifying Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 A few of my competitors. The white Viper is the 2016 champion and I think he won again this year, he was smoking fast. he's Scotty White, the owner of Knight Transportation, a trucking company here. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 Partial diagnosis is back from Surgeline: No Compression in 1 & 3. Bore scope shows cylinder wall damaged. Rings seem to be burned off. Likely cause: Overheating. So the cracked burp tank neck is my downfall, and my lack of double checking the coolant level. I always look in the coolant overflow tank at the level, if it's low or flat gone I open the burp tank cap and check there. It never occurred to me that the overflow tank could be half full but the burp tank empty which introduces air pockets into the block. But with the fill neck cracked on the burp tank there was no vacuum to suck the water out of the overflow tank and back into the system. I actually popped the burp tank cap off and looked because it seemed strange that the overflow tank was at the exact same level in the AM pre-check on Saturday as it was on Friday. It also never occurred to me that the engine could overheat without the coolant temp or oil temp shooting up. Neither ever showed over 220. I was watching both the oem coolant gauge in the dash and the Cobb AP digital temp from the ECU. Same with my oil temp gauge. But apparently the air pockets are made worse and more difficult to purge by a closed deck design? The pre-track entry checklist now has a new box: Check the overflow tank and the burp tank each time before going on track (if it's cool enough to open safely). I'll ship the block back to Rallispec and see what Dave can salvage and re-build. In the immortal words of Mr. Tris: YNANSB! Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators BarManBean Posted July 12, 2017 Moderators Share Posted July 12, 2017 But apparently the air pockets are made worse and more difficult to purge by a closed deck design? Not sure about purging, but the closed deck design certainly trades cooling capability for increased block strength / cylinder wall strength, yes? "Bullet-proof" your OEM TMIC! <<Buy your kit here>> Not currently in stock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) I ran across this yesterday on subaruforester.org. It includes a post from someone that explains the cooling system in turbo Subarus, and the function and importance of properly working tank and radiator caps. From a 2010 Forest XT owner on SubaruForester.org So I finally found the root cause of my overheating problem. FINALLY! After installing the Derale aftermarket fan/shroud I did a test drive and the temps got better but my coolant was still heating up. I then decided to research the all aluminum Mishimoto radiator I had online and found some staggering news posted on Mishimoto's website regarding overheating issues when using their radiator cap. Here is what is stated on their website: Caution The following applies to Subarus. Not all vehicles will have this issue. The provided Mishimoto radiator cap should replace the stock cap located on the expansion tank. The stock cap attached to the radiator should be installed on the Mishimoto Performance Aluminum Radiator. The Mishimoto radiator cap is a two way valve, while the stock radiator cap is a single valve. Due to the difference in construction, the Mishimoto cap cannot be used on the radiator. If the Mishimoto cap is fit on the radiator, overheating may occur. https://www.mishimoto.com/subaru-forester-xt-turbo-manual-04-08.html Needless to say my jaw hit the floor. Right after I got the Mishimoto radiator installed with the Mishimoto branded radiator cap almost two years ago I have had coolant heat issues. People have blamed it on not enough airflow to my radiator due to my bumper design, turbo getting too hot, too much stress on the engine (in regards to added weight and towing), OEM fans aren't strong enough, etc.... None of these issues was causing my heating problems it was simply the radiator cap. I also was able to find this through a post on this forum regarding OEM radiator caps on Subarus: "Gentlemen, I am appalled. I thought sure someone would provide the correct information on the cooling system, but after reading all posts it's not there. Here is how your turbo Subaru's cooling system works: The two caps are not only rated at two different pressures, they are constructed differently to serve two different functions. The cap on the upper reservoir above the turbo is of a lower pressure rating AND, very importantly, has a reverse pressure valve. This cap's lower pressure rating allows it to vent pressure into the overflow hose that then goes into the overflow container. The reverse pressure valve comes into play when the system cools down, the coolant shrinks, and the negative pressure in the cooling system sucks coolant back into the coolant system from the overflow container. The upper tank's cap is responsible for system pressurization, therefore, as well as ensuring the back and forth movement of coolant from the overflow reservoir. NOTE: Failure of the negative pressure valve is an invisible condition... and results in the lack of a pressurized coolant system, higher and uncontrolled coolant temperature, and possible engine (head gasket) failures. Always inspect the negative pressure valve, and clean as needed. Also, periodic replacement of the cap with the correct OEM cap is advised. The cap on the radiator itself has a higher pressure rating, it's job is to maintain system pressure, and virtually never comes into play because the upper cap's lower pressure rating means it vents to the overflow container before the lower cap's threshold is reached. Do NOT mix the caps up. Use ONLY OEM caps." I went to my local Subaru shop and purchased an OEM radiator cap and guess what happened.....yep...no more issues with my coolant getting too hot. I threw away the Mishimoto cap and now have OEM caps on my main radiator and expansion tank. I am so glad I found the issue without having to throw even more money at it. I have been driving around in 95 degree heat and the hottest I have been since installing the new radiator cap is 205. Just driving around town normal I am averaging 185-200. I am so thankful I solved the biggest puzzle in my build and it was stated clear as day on Mishimoto's website. This solidifies my philosophy to try and stay with OEM parts whenever possible. Edited July 12, 2017 by GTEASER GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Sorry to hear about the shot engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Guess I'll be ditching the mishimoto caps on my car Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gkinslow Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 That's some good info and should be in a sticky if it isn't already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 (edited) That's some good info and should be in a sticky if it isn't already. Most of it doesn't apply to the 5th Gen GT because we only have 1 radiator cap, on the radiator itself, but certainly the entirety applies to the 4th Gen GT, and most other Subies with the traditional Subaru turbo location and the upper coolant tank. So feel free to grab it, edit it, and post it in a Sticky. Edited July 12, 2017 by GTEASER GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 Yep, I have been aware of the two caps issue for a while and have posted about it 2-3 times in various LGT forums. The Mishimoto cap was on the expansion tank where it's supposed to be and the non eared cap on the Radiator. On OEM caps it's easy to remember: The one with "ears" for your thumbs to make it easy to take on and off goes on the expansion/burp tank. The one without ears goes on the radiator. Simply because Subaru wants you to check and fill thru the expansion/burp tank, and not open the radiator at all. Now here's the confusion: The Subaru Parts website has the NON-Eared cap on the diagram and parts number listing for the new plastic expansion tank! `That's why I said in my post above that I thought that it was weird they wanted that cap on the new tank. It ultimately had nothing to do with this failure, but in the future I'll be using the oem eared cap on the new expansion tank. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris GTO TT Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Guess I'll be ditching the mishimoto caps on my car Does it really matter on a car that doesn't run? 2003 Baja 5MT 2016 Outback 2.5i Premium w/Eyesight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino6303 Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Guess I'll be ditching the mishimoto caps on my carI think he removed his mishimoto caos during this debacle and had oem caos on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Does it really matter on a car that doesn't run? All cars under discussion here don't run. What's your point? Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris GTO TT Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I rarely have a point lol 2003 Baja 5MT 2016 Outback 2.5i Premium w/Eyesight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th3Franz Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 ouch. hopefully the scoring isn't too deep or you'll need a new case and pistons then. -Franz The end of a Legacy http://www.youtube.com/th3franz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 ouch. hopefully the scoring isn't too deep or you'll need a new case and pistons then. Already in discussions with Dave at Rallispec about a replacement. He's being pretty generous with projected credits for the block I'll be sending back. Assuming the crank & rods are ok. However he has very limited stock on hand so it will be a few weeks to build a new one. We're talking about one he has possibly available next week. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 So you'll be back for the August races? Or still going to start over next season? Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted July 13, 2017 Author Share Posted July 13, 2017 So you'll be back for the August races? Or still going to start over next season? Questionable if the STI will be back before the PIR multi hour enduro in October. I'd really like to be there for that. Even if we hurry on the re-build there's still the break in process that takes a while to get track days at ORP. Unless I get a back up! Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 There's a pro3 for sale in Gig Harbor. They are offering deals. Put a subie badge on it, no one will know. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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