BostonLGT Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Hey guys, For those who don't already know this, I need a SB. I am working with Alberto at Motive Auto for my build, but I am having a hard time choosing a road to take with this thing. My main question here is whether I should buy a new block, or have mine re-machined and buy upgraded internals? My motor has 135K on it, but I have a feeling my crank bearings are shot, or the turbo let go (car is at the shop and has yet to be autopsied). Anyone have some advice here? My goal is a reliable DD, stage 2, VF46 (Billet Wheel), with an STi crank. BUT I really don't want stock STi pistons due to the high rate of ringland failure, so I have been researching forged pistons. I have spoken with Max about his preference and his build, but I want to poll a larger audience. GO! Thanks in advance for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTris Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I still vote OEM block. It's all in the tune, man. That, and, I don't think you can do better than $1645 for block machining, new crank, etc. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yes, its all in the tune, as I said, Mike Kinsman of www.tuningalliance.com has the wagon running like a watch. He really is that good. His brother had a 05 GT back when Mike was a Tuner at a dyno, he spent lots hours with the car on the dyno. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BostonLGT Posted January 22, 2015 Author Share Posted January 22, 2015 I still vote OEM block. It's all in the tune, man. That, and, I don't think you can do better than $1645 for block machining, new crank, etc. . Haven't looked into Heuberger yet. Since I'm in Boston I assumed that shipping from CO would counteract the discount in price... I can't find one in MA for cheaper than $2200. Tris, I seem to remember you buying from Heuberger. Do you remember what shipping was to you? Max, the EJ257 that you have is the STi block right? How soon after the break-in did you tune it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTris Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Shipping is the same for all CONUS, it's about $200. Shortblock and gasket kit should be $2081 to your door. Might be a slight difference in the price of the gasket kit since you have an '07, but I can't imagine it'd be much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Haven't looked into Heuberger yet. Since I'm in Boston I assumed that shipping from CO would counteract the discount in price... I can't find one in MA for cheaper than $2200. Tris, I seem to remember you buying from Heuberger. Do you remember what shipping was to you? Max, the EJ257 that you have is the STi block right? How soon after the break-in did you tune it? The car had been at 21psi for over a year before. At 500 miles we street tuned just to make sure the ported headed change the tune much. That was after an oil change. First oil change is after 20 minutes of run time in the driveway. Then I drove it 500 miles then changed the oil and street tuned. Then 1000 miles do another oil change then 1500 miles another oil change. That's when I put in Amsoil European 5w-40 Full SAPS. After Blackstone Labs did a sample of the oil, I have settled on 7000 OCI using Amsoil filters. I drive the car everyday most of it highway miles. If I drove for short times I'd read think that interval. I think the key is, these cars like to be driven for long distance, they don't do well if they always stay in town. And yes the EJ257 is the STi shortblock. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discojon Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I did a rebuild also. My car with 141k at the time still had the original cross hatching visible in places. Cylinders were all within spec for roundness too. I have about 50k on the rebuild at 21 lbs and no issues. Dave at Cryo did my tune. I do 5000 Mile OCI and an analysis every other change. Rotella T6 the whole time on the rebuild. If you do mechanic work yourself, either way should be about the same. I had about $2200 in my rebuild including parts. Parts included CP forged, King bearings, reused rods, valvejob, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GipsySpec.B Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'm starting this fund because at 126k I know it's coming up. I want to do a compression check just to see where I sit, haven't done one since owning the vehicle so I'm just running on hopes and dreams and oil changes. Mine will probably be a little more than double yours Discojon simply because I wont be able to do most of the labor and I'm upgrading from the stock to a twinscroll 20g. I figure 5.2k for the whole project should be enough, now if the engine will last until I have it all saved that would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Infamous Performance does rebuilds with CP pistons. I think that's the route I am going to take. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AF_3C2 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 If your biggest concern is reliability, then OEM block from Heuberger would be my recommendation- forged pistons, depending on the type of alloy you select, might actually decrease your engine lifespan- especially in colder environments. Like MrTris and Max Capacity recommend, the issue with the OEM pistons leading to ringland failure was due to the tune- not the build quality of the pistons. Stock OEM pistons should handle stage 2 power levels- with a good tune- with no problem. Want to build a full out 500+ HP motor for flogging on the track? Then look into forged and supporting mods. Just my 2 cents, and wishing you best of luck on process! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTDogg MA Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I went with a built block from Motive, couldn't be happier. My main reasoning was I didn't want OEM pistons again and wanted something solid and reliable for 40k-50k miles. My build thread is in this forum for more information, PM if you want more details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJuan Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Had mine rebuilt with CP pistons for the piece of mind of not cracking a ringland again. Total cost for rebuilding the SB with forged pistons was $2,000. So the chioce is yours, either way you go the price is going to be about the same. My wife's balls are delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Had mine rebuilt with CP pistons for the piece of mind of not cracking a ringland again. Total cost for rebuilding the SB with forged pistons was $2,000. So the chioce is yours, either way you go the price is going to be about the same. How many miles do you expect to get out of your block with the forged pistons? My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJuan Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 So far, I have 25k miles on the rebuilt block with zero issues. Never really thought about how long the block will go, because I plan selling her by the end of the year. With a good builder and tuner, these blocks will last a long time. My wife's balls are delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 What kind of car are you going to move too? My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJuan Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'm gaining more interest in the newer Kia Optima SX (turbo) models. The newer Lexus IS 250 & 350 have also caught my eye, but nothing set in stone at this point. My wife's balls are delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTris Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I'm gaining more interest in the newer Kia Optima SX (turbo) models. The newer Lexus IS 250 & 350 have also caught my eye, but nothing set in stone at this point. Seems to be the direction many of us go when the LGT is gone -- IS250/350. Hey, you should get one that match's Rob2's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJuan Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 Yeah I remember when Rob bought his is250 last summer. Not sure as my mind always changes until I'm ready to buy. I have a feeling that I maybe replacing the turbo here soon, still on the OEM vf40 with 145k miles. Checking the shaft play next weekend when I replace the clutch. My wife's balls are delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I still vote OEM block. It's all in the tune, man. That, and, I don't think you can do better than $1645 for block machining, new crank, etc. . Shipping is the same for all CONUS, it's about $200. EXACTLY, which is ~$140 more than shipping a short block actually costs so you end up at $1850 which is comparable to what I was charging when I was an official vendor. You can still get one at this price in MA. Or you can buy my lightly used OEM long block for less than a heuberger short block shipped to your door. It may be "all in the tune" but knock can be a freak occurance and the OEM pistons simply aren't as robust as a quality piston like Wiseco. Even a safe tune won't eliminate knock in the event of bad gas, clogged injector, vac leak, failed pump, etc. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BostonLGT Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 EXACTLY, which is ~$140 more than shipping a short block actually costs so you end up at $1850 which his comparable to what I was charging when I was an official vendor. You can still get one at this price in MA. Or you can buy my lightly used OEM long block for less than a heuberger short block shipped to your door. It may be "all in the tune" but knock can be a freak occurance and the OEM pistons simply aren't as robust as a quality piston like Wiseco. Even a safe tune won't eliminate knock in the event of bad gas, clogged injector, vac leak, failed pump, etc. Thanks Underdog, this is exactly why I am leaning towards forged pistons. I have a really hard time finding 'good gas' in Boston, and have been battling misfires since I got it here. When I fill up in Maine, the misfires go away... imagine that!? I actually just got a call from Alberto tonight, and it seems the material that was in the oil was NOT bearing material. It's piston material, so it seems that my misfires caused some bad piston slap or something and I just happened to notice it early on. I know this doesn't change much, but it will make for an interesting conversation in the next couple of days. My motor is at 135k right now. Would there be a difference in how long the block holds up if i re-machine my own block, vs. using a new OEM? Thanks again for all the feedback! This is very educational, and definitely helping my decision process! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTDogg MA Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Machining the block is pretty straight forward. As long as the cylinder walls are not chewed up, you can just get them roughed up and cleaned. Then you can use stock sized Wisecos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 That's funny - I have only had trouble with Maine gas! Over 100k I start thinking about replacing the parts rather than trying to recover a blown motor. It isn't a hard and fast rule, but 100k is a lot of abuse. The risk becomes large enough to justify the premium, especially if you are building beyond original specs. I like Wiseco because you can go .25mm over which gives the machinist enough material to bring in the taper and cylindricity, but leaves you enough meat for another .25mm if you want to rehab the block at some point. However you have D25 heads which will yield a higher CR than stock with the Wiseco pistons. Something to consider when you factor in boost target and fuel octane/quality. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 That's funny - I have only had trouble with Maine gas! Over 100k I start thinking about replacing the parts rather than trying to recover a blown motor. It isn't a hard and fast rule, but 100k is a lot of abuse. The risk becomes large enough to justify the premium, especially if you are building beyond original specs. So your advice is new OEM shortblock with forged pistons? Or do you mean replacing a lot of the parts in the oem short block (like bearings etc) My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 It depends on a lot of factors. I would generally not recommend buying a new short block assembly and installing 99.5mm pistons. If the block needed to be replaced for whatever reason I would buy new case halves and whatever other parts were needed to complete the build. I also feel that you will get a better result going up to 99.75mm pistons assuming you have a good machinist. The factory bores are not as dimensionally stable as the FSM would have you believe. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJuan Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Thanks Underdog, this is exactly why I am leaning towards forged pistons. I have a really hard time finding 'good gas' in Boston, and have been battling misfires since I got it here. When I fill up in Maine, the misfires go away... imagine that!? All depends on the gas station and what additives they put in it. For about 3 months my car started going in and out of "limp" mode. Tried everything to fix it, but it didn't matter. Finally I figured it out that it was one of the gas stations I would go to every once in a while, ever since I stop using their gas the car has not gone into "limp" mode again. Funny (or not) how sensitive these cars are. My wife's balls are delicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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