Perscitus Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I need! sell to me!I know dude. I've discussed this with AMR and they'd need the car in the shop to fabricate a Y for it. They'd use the same basic components, but the design would need to be slightly different from 3.6R to 3.6R. Few reasons behind this, I'll outline a bit (what I know) below. Perscitus, if they can duplicate it, I would love to pay for it and for shipping. It may be a bit of a stretch, but it would be great to have a plug and play cat/y-pipe for those headers. I can then have any average muffler guy install it and connect up an exhaust to it.Yes, this would be ideal, I know. With the revisions we've done at AMR we learned a few things that could make creating a PnP design tricky. 1. The header runner flanges are angled a bit different depending on if the header spacers are used or not to clear the FSB 2. Stock cats will start to fail (its just a question of time) with the headers installed. Exhaust flow and EGTs (especially without a tune) are too high for them to take and they start to collapse, substrate separates from the housing walls. Symptoms: initially some bogging down, sluggish performance, eventually overheating front substrate surface, back-pressure spikes, random mis-fires, random knock. 3. The solution to 2 is either to go a. catless or b. replace OEM cats with larger ID metal core (higher temp tolerating) units. Catless is easier and cheaper, nets a slight performance gain, but calls for a retune (to realize it and to run safe), but results in a RASP >5K RPM that doesn't sound good at all. Catless: Exhaust fume smell is minimal (potentially thanks to the tune). Using baffled resonators in place of the cats causes pinging within the y-pipe and doesn't eliminate the rasp, using perforated straight through resonators doesn't eliminate the rasp either but eliminates the pinging. Catted: Using 100 cell race/metal cats only partially eliminates the rasp. Only 200 and 200+ cell cats eliminate (or rather muffle) the rasp enough to make it livable, streetable. 4. With the y-pipe design figured out (2.5" ID piping throughout, 2x 2.5" 200-cell metal cats), the location and way it mates to the catback is also different from car to car. All depends on what exhaust we're running (stock 3.6R CBE, modified LGT CBEs in either 2.5" ID, 3" IDs, resonated, non-resonated, flanged or not). Depending on the CBE, the inlet can be offset by as much as an 1-1.5" making coming up with a PnP y-pipe tricky. How bout they put together a group buy Headers and that y-pipe?!?!I ran that idea by AMR, but because of above they didn't feel it would be viable for them. Give them a call and if enough of us contact them about the header/y-pipe or just y-pipes, maybe they'll jig something up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golferdude1087 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) I'm already on board for the header y-pipe so count me in! I just see their not being enough 3.6R's on the road and even fewer who want to tune them to make this cost effective on AMR's end. So have you basically eliminated (muffled) the RASP with the new setup or is their tinkering that you still need to do? Also Perscitus, since you have the same FSB i'll be putting on, did you need any spacers for the headers? Edited May 29, 2015 by Golferdude1087 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 All gone Alex. The exhaust sounds great, the 200-cell cats give it a nice aggressive metallic tone to the same catback deep bass note I had before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eckseleven Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Should be relatively quick. I think you can direct Subaru Online Parts to a number of dealerships. Sometimes the ones in NJ or OH seem to have even lower prices. Coming back to the topic of BHP/BTQ vs WHP/WTQ - it doesn't really matter which one you quote or what a given dyno is reporting the car is putting down (or approximating what the @thecrank numbers should be) - the net gain is really all that matters. So say on Dyno 1 your car puts down 150whp stock and after the mechanical upgrades/tune, on the same dyno with similar/same conditions and settings it puts down 190-200whp. The net gain of 40-50whp is all that matters. On Dyno 2 your stock car might put down 200whp stock and everything else being equal should probably put down 240-250whp (same net gain) with the mechanical changes and tune. The net gain will have a approximately same effect on both whp/wtq and bhp/btq. So it doesn't really matter which one you quote, and ideally all that's really needed is the net gain or % gain (vs. stock). Next comes the power to weight ratio which is also key and of course our dreaded drivetrain loss (thx 5EAT, thx SAWD) which isn't fixed or even linear (increases with RPM and velocity) and robs us of at least 25 and more typically 30%! A similarly equipped 6MT 5th gen will usually 'suffer' only 19-21% combined drivetrain losses. Which means that in a back to back scenario, in order for a 5EAT or CVT equipped Subaru to put down the same whp/wtq #s as those from an equally equipped 6MT, the 5EAT/CVT car would need to produce ~13-14% more power at the crank... loosing more of it along the way to the wheels - resulting in a similar/equal whp/wtq output. Part of the reason why 5EAT equipped Legacy GTs (4th and 5th gen) and HT-CVT equipped Legacy DITs (5th gen), 2015+ WRXs/Levorgs typically put down far lower whp/wtq numbers vs equivalent 6MT cars.... meanwhile their output at the crank might actually be same or potentially higher (say at Stage 2 and beyond). I don't agree with the BHP/BTQ quoting that takes place so much here. The dyno is an estimate as is. Why complicate (and potentially skew) the numbers further by applying another estimation to that? If the estimated range of power loss is 25-30%, which do you use? The lower one to make your BHP look better? Both and provide a range (my car makes between X and Y at the crank)? It just muddies the water. Your deltas may not be accurate either since no one can agree on whether or not drivetrain parasitic loss is a constant percentage or if it varies as engine output changes. WHP is the most informative number and the deltas don't lie. It is also the best number to use when comparing cars (assuming they were run on the same dyno) since, like you said, there is quite a difference between transmission types - a 300 bhp manual will be quicker than 300 bhp automatic. WHP is what meets the road and what moves you. One last point, what if you alter the drivetrain in a way that reduces the parasitic loss such as carbon fiber driveshafts? Not only do you not know the exact effect on percentage but now you can't compare to you previous BHP numbers. Again, WHP will still tell the truth here and you can still make valid comparisons. Note - I realize we'll probably not see a carbon fiber driveshaft for our cars; I'm just using it as an example to demonstrate my point. Don't take offense, Perscitus I'm not attacking or directing this towards you specifically. Just challenging the usage of BHP/BTQ on this forum. It just seems to be a useless number that we can't legitimately do anything with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I agree ecksleven. You're spot on. I only brought out the Brake/Crank/Flywheel vs Wheel comparison to illustrate that exact point, but also to show that depending on what transmission, gearing, final drive, amount/type of diffs, etc. are mated to a given engine will have a fairly drastic effect on its @ the wheels output (everything else, such as day/time/dyno/config) being equal. The delta between wheel results before vs. wheel results after is really all that matters to see if the mechanical or electronic changes or both created a net positive effect on engine output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrik94087 Posted May 29, 2015 Author Share Posted May 29, 2015 I know dude. I've discussed this with AMR and they'd need the car in the shop to fabricate a Y for it. They'd use the same basic components, but the design would need to be slightly different from 3.6R to 3.6R. Few reasons behind this, I'll outline a bit (what I know) below. Yes, this would be ideal, I know. With the revisions we've done at AMR we learned a few things that could make creating a PnP design tricky. I was suggesting a "standard" Y that ends at some point. If my plan is to custom fit an axle-back exhaust to that Y, then it doesn't matter. Even if the spacer is used, there is a flex joint at the end of the Y, so I am not worried. It does not have to have hangers welded onto it...it just needs to fit the headers and make its way back. Most shops can do the rest. If they have figured how to get the sound correct, all the more reason to have them make a batch for us. "It's within spec" - SOA "Depth is only shallowness viewed from the side." - Fredism "So, how much did it cost for your car to be undriveable ." - Stephen (very close friend) "You have done so much it would be stupid to go back." - Sunny of Guru Electronics 2018Q50RS | 2015WrxThread | Shrek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Agreed Fred. I pitched the idea, but that wasn't enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItalianLegacy Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I know dude. I've discussed this with AMR and they'd need the car in the shop to fabricate a Y for it. They'd use the same basic components, but the design would need to be slightly different from 3.6R to 3.6R. Few reasons behind this, I'll outline a bit (what I know) below. Yes, this would be ideal, I know. With the revisions we've done at AMR we learned a few things that could make creating a PnP design tricky. 1. The header runner flanges are angled a bit different depending on if the header spacers are used or not to clear the FSB 2. Stock cats will start to fail (its just a question of time) with the headers installed. Exhaust flow and EGTs (especially without a tune) are too high for them to take and they start to collapse, substrate separates from the housing walls. Symptoms: initially some bogging down, sluggish performance, eventually overheating front substrate surface, back-pressure spikes, random mis-fires, random knock. 3. The solution to 2 is either to go a. catless or b. replace OEM cats with larger ID metal core (higher temp tolerating) units. Catless is easier and cheaper, nets a slight performance gain, but calls for a retune (to realize it and to run safe), but results in a RASP >5K RPM that doesn't sound good at all. Catless: Exhaust fume smell is minimal (potentially thanks to the tune). Using baffled resonators in place of the cats causes pinging within the y-pipe and doesn't eliminate the rasp, using perforated straight through resonators doesn't eliminate the rasp either but eliminates the pinging. Catted: Using 100 cell race/metal cats only partially eliminates the rasp. Only 200 and 200+ cell cats eliminate (or rather muffle) the rasp enough to make it livable, streetable. 4. With the y-pipe design figured out (2.5" ID piping throughout, 2x 2.5" 200-cell metal cats), the location and way it mates to the catback is also different from car to car. All depends on what exhaust we're running (stock 3.6R CBE, modified LGT CBEs in either 2.5" ID, 3" IDs, resonated, non-resonated, flanged or not). Depending on the CBE, the inlet can be offset by as much as an 1-1.5" making coming up with a PnP y-pipe tricky. I ran that idea by AMR, but because of above they didn't feel it would be viable for them. Give them a call and if enough of us contact them about the header/y-pipe or just y-pipes, maybe they'll jig something up. bro have them duplicate it ill worry about any changes that need to be made... please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrik94087 Posted May 29, 2015 Author Share Posted May 29, 2015 "It's within spec" - SOA "Depth is only shallowness viewed from the side." - Fredism "So, how much did it cost for your car to be undriveable ." - Stephen (very close friend) "You have done so much it would be stupid to go back." - Sunny of Guru Electronics 2018Q50RS | 2015WrxThread | Shrek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 I asked for this a few times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrik94087 Posted May 29, 2015 Author Share Posted May 29, 2015 An option is to pay him to do it again and then we buy your used one...one at a time. "It's within spec" - SOA "Depth is only shallowness viewed from the side." - Fredism "So, how much did it cost for your car to be undriveable ." - Stephen (very close friend) "You have done so much it would be stupid to go back." - Sunny of Guru Electronics 2018Q50RS | 2015WrxThread | Shrek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Hahaha, best option is if any/all interested 3.6Rs owners email, call, chat message AutoMaster so theyll just make a handful or two. Some milled steel, some stainless steel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golferdude1087 Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Haha Mike you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. There are only a few of us tuning but those few REALLLLY want it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tradewind Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 A tip Adding a muffler just behind that little flex joint will solve 99% of your issues with rasp etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5159199&postcount=660 BtSsm just keep getting better and better! Fredrick you NEED this. Some changes requested by yours truly.... and implemented by heiche the BtSsm mastermind genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrik94087 Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5159199&postcount=660 BtSsm just keep getting better and better! Fredrick you NEED this. Some changes requested by yours truly.... and implemented by heiche the BtSsm mastermind genius. Wouldnt know what to do with it. All I need is my tune (finished). I agree. It is good to know wtf bank 2 is doing. I hope Rob gets things figured out quick. Perscitus, if I order it, may I call you for a walk through??? "It's within spec" - SOA "Depth is only shallowness viewed from the side." - Fredism "So, how much did it cost for your car to be undriveable ." - Stephen (very close friend) "You have done so much it would be stupid to go back." - Sunny of Guru Electronics 2018Q50RS | 2015WrxThread | Shrek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nstg8r Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/ma-raptor-3-6r-headers-new-241544.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perscitus Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 A tip. Adding a muffler just behind that little flex joint will solve 99% of your issues with rasp etc.I have one, well its a resonator but 14" long, 3" ID. Its been there before the headers went in. Didnt help to remove the rasp once catless, metal cats solved the problem. Perhaps instead of a resonator, I shouldve put a glasspack or baffled muffler in there.. too late and too much $$$ spent now I agree. It is good to know wtf bank 2 is doing. Perscitus, if I order it, may I call you for a walk through???Sure thing. Check with heiche to make sure your ECU ID is compatible, I believe it is and yes, happy to help set it up. Its an invaluable tool with polling rates and precision much higher than OBDII. I use it as much, if not more real time vs for logging. Shows so much great Subaru SSMII and SSMIII protocol data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golferdude1087 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Headers are bought and Swaybars have arrived! They forgot the bushings on the RSB so I had those resent but I cant do anything until I get back from visiting my family this weekend anyway. Hurrah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golferdude1087 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 So I asked Mike this but I wanted to get other peoples input. Does anyone have CPE (Custom Parts and Equipment) on their insurance policies for their cars? If you do, how much more is it costing you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMajickMan Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 No I have not listed upgrades on my policy. Don't think I ever have. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillitupp Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Lol I'm afraid to see how much they would charge for custom parts ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrik94087 Posted June 4, 2015 Author Share Posted June 4, 2015 last year: 14.56@95.4mph 77degrees with 10-15mph headwind around 6pm. this year with TB: 14.584@94.9mph 70 degrees with 5-10mph headwind at 4:30pm. The comparison is not entirely apples to apples. Last year, I ran it with the falken tires, empty trunk, and 100 octane for a few days. Today, I ran it with Nittos (slightly wider and taller even though it is the same spec as falken), full trunk, and 100 octane on top of 1/4 tank of 91 octane just before driving up to Sonoma Raceway. I wanted to get some more runs but the track shut down for what seemed to be over an hour and I headed home. Here is my original 1/4 mile time for reference: http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4943522&postcount=14111 Quick update to my 1/4 mile times last year: 14.56@95.4mph 77degrees with 10-15mph headwind around 6pm. (no spare nor jack and < 1/2 tank of 100 octane on falkens) this year with TB: 14.584@94.9mph 70 degrees with 5-10mph headwind at 4:30pm. (spare and jack and > 3/4 tank of 97 blend on nittos) this evening with TB: 14.508@96.6mph 71 degrees with crosswind at 6:25pm. (no spare nor jack and < 1/2 tank of 100 octane on falkens) last year and today's comparisons are as close as I am gonna get. "It's within spec" - SOA "Depth is only shallowness viewed from the side." - Fredism "So, how much did it cost for your car to be undriveable ." - Stephen (very close friend) "You have done so much it would be stupid to go back." - Sunny of Guru Electronics 2018Q50RS | 2015WrxThread | Shrek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golferdude1087 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 Awesome! I see a full MPH increase from last year to this Frederick, what modification changes did you make between last year and last night outside of the Boomba TB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrik94087 Posted June 4, 2015 Author Share Posted June 4, 2015 none. "It's within spec" - SOA "Depth is only shallowness viewed from the side." - Fredism "So, how much did it cost for your car to be undriveable ." - Stephen (very close friend) "You have done so much it would be stupid to go back." - Sunny of Guru Electronics 2018Q50RS | 2015WrxThread | Shrek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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