IwannaSportSedan Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Better than the last one??? Like that is hard. That is like saying it is better than a hole in the head. Not a high bar to clear. It may be better, but it is still not good. FWD GM V8 cars are stupid. that much torque is going to torque steer until the trans blows up. Scratch that, GM FWD cars are stupid... I can't think of one of them I would pay for, or even one I wouldn't trade in if I were given it for free. People can say that it is the "grass is greener" theory, that no one likes domestic, whereever their domestic market is... The story changes when our domestic market truly is lagging behind. The only decent looking american cars are the Chrysler/Dodge RWD cars, but they are damned huge, heavy, and no manual available, not even the Charger RT. The 05 Mustang looks good, too, but again, it is bigger than it needs to be (bigger than it looks, actually...) heavy-ish, and has a truck axle. not even the high-dollar Shelby reincarnation will have a present-day rear suspension. The FWD ford cars are bland, because FoMoCo is way to interested in trucks to pay much attention to cars. GM has shelved their new RWD platform (zeta, I think... I just can't get enthused enough about the crap from GM to keep it straight...) Nothing more to say. They have their heads so far up their collective rears, that it's no wonder they can't see forward. Now all three are offering all sorts of incentives to move cars. The sales figures look positive, but they are just selling the same CRAP cheaper. At a certain point, you can't make a bad product cheap enough. The thing is, that other companies are getting boring as well. Honda. S2k and NSX are interesting, but not widely-appealing nor even slightly practical. Everything else is as ho-hum as watching your washing machine. Toyota is much the same way. They have tried lately with scion, and the Tc is a step in the right direction, but the Xa and Xb boxes are econo-boxes in the most literal possible sense. Hyundai is trying to out toyota Toyota. Nissan is trying to do better, but anything not FWD is expensive, and there seems to be reliability concerns. VW and Audi are getting more expensive every year, also with a reputation for spotty reliability. Jag, Porsche, et al. have always been expensive. Subaru is shooting itself in the performance foot by cutting options in the Legacy line, like MTs from the LGT wagon, and something as basic as interior color choices. These companies need to realise that the 10% enthusiasts set the tone in the whole automotive market, and the other 90% will always be easy to sell Accords and Camrys to. To become or maintain a brand image, especially anything relating to performance, you have to go for the enthusiast market first, even if the market is tiny. The positive response will be picked up by the rest of the market wanting to buy the cool car that their gearhead freind says is cool. The thing is, you can't offer crap to gearheads and hope they'll like it. The nascar crowd may love the new Impala SS. Anyone who knows the first thing about actual performance will laugh their @$$ off at it, and ultimately GM's reputation won't be helped much, as all the nascar folks would be much more likely to buy a Ford, Chevy, or Mopar anyway. I have illustrated above why I won't be. I couldn't care much less about stock car racing that is racing tube-frame chassis, push-rod V8, Live rear axle, cookie-cutter aerodynamic, restrictor-plate race cars. This is 1950's tech that has been polished for 50 years, but not really advanced much. And it is certainly no longer "stock" car racing. I buy cars for real world, real road performance on the routes I take regularly, so my choices aren't bound by marketing. If they were, I certainly wouldn't be considerging a Legacy GT. I'd be slobbering over a Charger or something. I like it much better my way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 The thing is, you can't offer crap to gearheads and hope they'll like it. The nascar crowd may love the new Impala SS. Anyone who knows the first thing about actual performance will laugh their @$$ off at it, and ultimately GM's reputation won't be helped much, as all the nascar folks would be much more likely to buy a Ford, Chevy, or Mopar anyway. You summed it up perfectly, as long as Nascar is the most popular form of motorsport in NA, then the domestic manufacturers will build to their tastes. The rest of the world can not for the life of them understand the fascination with driving in circles for 500 miles or whatever distance it is. We just have to accept that we are the minority. Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeding_gaijin Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 Looks just like another car.... A 5.3L V8, how innovative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz-0 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 I don't think it looks that bad, but I wouldn't drive one. I see a bit of the Legacy in it from the rear pillar forward (the sweep and proportion), but then I've been seeing some of the Legacy in several different cars lately. Don't flame me for this--I'm still not thinking right from the accident! that's because it's the epsilon platform, just like the legacy. The interior also takes a few cues from the legacy. Got to see these in the flesh a while ago at the NY autho show, and they are ok looking. Definitely had the feeling of being inspired by the legacy. Kind of like the passat is a cleaner, less interesting version of the a4. The main issue is putting that horsepower down vi FWD. They should have borrowed one bit form the subaru parts bin for sure. They do have more ponies and a fold down rear seat though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I don't think the Legacy is a GM platform, Epsilon, or otherwise. GM would do well to get some design cues from the Legacy, as it is a handsome car, inside and out, but it is a FHI design and Chassis, not a GM platform. FWD is not ideal for putting power down, and the epsilon platform is FWD. Putting a V8 in it is only going to accentuate it's limitations, not produce a better car. More front heavy, more torque-steer, and more understeer, especially in emergency maneuvers. It may take visual cues from the Legacy, or any number of better looking cars than GM makes, but it is still a marginal looking car. A big cobalt sedan. No Thanks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz-0 Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 *shrug* in the flesh it looks different than the pics, much like the dodge charger looks better in person than in the photos. Granted the impala is still pretty plain jane, but next to a malibu, it's a supermodel. I had read that the legacy was sharing the epsilon platform, but it might just have been bad speculation with regards to saab and subaru sharing stuff. The proportions of the 9-3 and the legacy aren't far off, so I can see where it comes from. Same for the proportions of the impala. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
93formula Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 We all should be thanking GM not cursing it. You do know that the decision to bring the wrx over here was mainly forced by gm. If not for the success of the wrx we wouldn't have our cars or really anything thats cool from subaru. So yeah GM rocks. Plus, for the first time since the 50's cadillacs are cool again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canis Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 Doesn't do much for me either. Plain, like "just another car." I still never figured out how they went from reintroducing the Impala in '92 with that bada$$ that even came with a 502, and then follow it up a couple years later with the current FWD, redesigned, V6-powered pos. WTF? The two aren't even the same concept, and yet they share the same name. Very wierd.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 Legacy is not on a GM platform. Completely different wheelbase and chassis development for the fulltime AWD and flat 4 spacing issues versus transverse inline 4, V6 or V8 engines (and maybe part-time AWD in other markets, not sure). Subaru isn't getting anything from Saab, Saab got a slightly reskinned Impreza wagon and Impreza WRX wagon. With that said, I wish GM would offer AWD on some of their cars. Like the turbo 4/manual combo in the LGT, but I'd like a V8 better! -B -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dark_rex Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 True, they do make most of their money from financing. Alot of that is the fact that most GM cars are financed through GMAC. Take away GM and GMAC will post losses as well. no way. GMAC's holdings in real estate alone DWARF their auto-loan base. GMAC is much much larger than their automotive related industry activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franklin Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 GM is really a marketing company. They're really not interested in making cars. They should try refrigerators or washers, maybe toaster ovens. :lol: They think they are anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobydude Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I don't know about you guys but the way gas prices are going I don't think anything higher than my current four cylinders nor my wallet can sustain more horsepower without better fuel efficiency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Jedimaster* Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 Yeah, I'm not looking at any automatic V8's for sure! Maybe a GTO (again, if GM could make it look not like ass) with a 6 speed for 30 mpg on the highway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 +2 I'll add that I think it is a DISGRACE that they slap an "SS" badge on every stinking model, even NON performance models. It is an insult to all of the great cars of the past that carried the "real" SS name. +1 to that. GM is amazingly stupid. So many ppl WANT to buy american, but jeez even with the low prices, who can bring themselves to? yuck. Yea this looks a lot better, but the old impala, ugh! What amazes me is where did they find 300000 ppl to buy that frickin' thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Maybe it's just me, but I can't think of one US made car that is good looking, well with the exception of the Corvettes, Viper's etc. It must be a mindset that exists over here, like why are there so many damn pickups on the road. Almost everyone on my street has one, but I haven't actually seen anyone with a load of timber or earth in them, just groceries. They burn gas at twice the rate of my little wagon, no wonder gas prices are rocketing skyward when these guys are burning it faster than they can pump it out of the ground. If I want to haul some stuff back from Home Depot, I rent their truck for an hour, costs me $15 ! Gas prices are going to have to go up a whole lot more before things change. $0.02 +1 Yea, wft?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Legacy is not on a GM platform. Completely different wheelbase and chassis development for the fulltime AWD and flat 4 spacing issues versus transverse inline 4, V6 or V8 engines (and maybe part-time AWD in other markets, not sure). Subaru isn't getting anything from Saab, Saab got a slightly reskinned Impreza wagon and Impreza WRX wagon. With that said, I wish GM would offer AWD on some of their cars. Like the turbo 4/manual combo in the LGT, but I'd like a V8 better! -B +1 but I like the smaller, more efficient german v8's over the thirsty large american v8's. Of course, I'd like a 2.0L I-6 in my miata, and I'd be very happy with a 3.0 L v8 or v10 in my GT:D Schumacher's grocery getter, indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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