iNVAR Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 I also forgot to reset the ecu when I flashed his maps during the tuning process and I let him know that and he said this "Sounds like u need a retune if thats true. You can buy them on my website" so I sent him the fresh logs and map and he then said "There is nothing he can do, and to basically stop worrying and drive the car"Was just reviewing thread and caught this.... That guy should know... you don't need to manually reset the ECU after a flash. The flashing software, both ECUFlash and COBB stuff will automatically reset right after a flash.... And he says you need a retune after that? ... :confused: Run away, quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 lol run forrest run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucid Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 any suggestions on a competent tuner remotely with accessport? People seem pretty happy with Cryo's remote tuning: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191961&highlight=Cryotune I have no personal experience, just providing an option for you to look into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Many reviews of Clark: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1600570 Some good, some bad... decide for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 yeah I checked him out and rolled the dice well lets just say I fall in the 50% category of displeased I even gave him a good initial review up until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 I am thinking of putting it back to stock and trading it. I really like the legacy as comfort is vital for me. I am impressed with the comfort of this 08 model, and will maybe trade it or selling it to get a legacy 3.0L limited if I can find one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 the vehicle should not have to resort to these safety features at every full throttle event. it's repetitive knock, it's what kills the ringlands in these cars. end of story, you should be seeing all 0's in fbkc and flkc, one -1.41 is fine to brush off, but not an IAM/DAM drop. lol.once again, i find myself agreeing with ripemeat... this is like the hundredth thread these past two weeks where i've agreed with you. derek, you should be able to decide for yourself if what clark says sits right with you or makes sense. i'm not going to push you in either direction, but it's important you realize that in order for the ECU to pull timing from a knock event, knock must have first occurred. and if it's reducing DAM on a consistent basis, there's a good chance that it could be due to some significant knock all over your map. yes, DAM/IAM can drop without there being a ton of knock. it's happened on my car before for random unknown reason in the period immediately following a flash/reset. it simply chose to drop DAM/IAM instead of just yanking 2 degrees with FBKC/FLKC... but it's very rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 Hi Guys here are my logs taken today I took off some of those parameters but I could not find throttle plate opening angle in the access port. I noticed my AFR learning 1 at wot was now like -10 and before it was lower should I be concerned? Also there were some knock correction in the cruising log, but the numbers did de-increment this time instead of staying the same or getting higher. Here are the logs in order as they were taken, Cruising, wot and idle any thoughts are welcomed and appreciated Cruising log https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvjuAcEqRlEfdGtOS2RzcG9Eb0FvdVRGQlFvSzh1ckE The wot log I took it from 25 mph to like a 110mph https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvjuAcEqRlEfdFB1dWZnU0p2Sl8yVkpBVkkwMjF5d0E idle log https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvjuAcEqRlEfdFF2N1lLM3ZpeVpocjYtaE9KNS1td0E thanks for givin them a look over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 It seems as if the knock is occurring from the shifts in auto and perhaps it is just being reapplied... If it is from the shifting and noise is it ok to a degree that I can stop worrying about this or should I still be concerned and looking for a new tune? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Every time your DAM and IAM decrease/increase, your entire knock table gets wiped out and needs to be relearned. If you had a legitimate knock at 3500RPM WOT that required -2.8 degrees of timing to be pulled, but the car never learned to do that because the table keeps getting reset, then your engine is going to knock at 3500 every single time. Does that sound healthy to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 So this is basically its never going to stop then if it does that, it will always see the knock again before it can learn to adjust for it and if the DAM changes it stars all over again. Invar based on my logs from yesterday and today what would you suggest my next approach be? new tune? And my Dam did go down at the end of my WOT run again wiping out all the stuff again........ Why would all of this knock present itself a month after the tune? does it take that long for everything to learn? or did the tune possibly create it by being effed up? I am scared to drive my car now out of fear its gonna blow up its only got 51K miles on it have no clue what the **** to do I guess imma drive it till it blows up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 You have classic 5eat shift knock. Ive been helping a friend with this issue, and clark turner has posted many things about it. The timing needs to be dropped significantly in the cells which your car hits right as the next gear hits. The ecu skips across the timing table extremely quickly because of rapid jumps in load, timing needs to be smoothed and resuced in those areas in order for a "drag race" style WOT session to be done without knock. Its rather peculiar and is why road tunes need to be done after a dyno tune(just an fyi). Because unlike a 3rd gear pull, the load transitions so quickly that the ecu also quickly tries to run the set timing. Essentially the engine is punched in the balls everytime you change the load at a certainly rpm range(auto shift at WOT). 5eats seem to hit the 4200-4800 rpms right after a shift. So reducing the timing in those cells is a start. What can also be said is the smoothness of the timing. Since the ecu pulls 25* during a shift that means once that command expires, the ecu is no resuming timing at that load and rpm. So imagine an engine going from your current timing minus 25 and then bouncing back up to the reference value. This drastic and quick change is sometimes said to be the cause of knock alone. So you dont want a timing JUMP of more than 2* or so at a time. So the less jump the ecu has to do after a timing pull(shift) the better and less chance of knocky knock. I spent hours trying all sorts of things. Only to find out that total timing needs to be damn near single digita right after a shift in order for a smooth engine operation to occur. So essentially you need to make a big dent in your timing table but also transition the timing values around that dent so there isnt more than a 2* different in the surrounding cells. MT guys when flat foot shifting experience similar issues, where timing and boost and load make real quick changes. The ecu doesnt like that. Also, finding your open loop fueling table and making sure those post-shift cells arent too lean can also help. If you reduce timing in those cells and see less and less detected post-shift knock. Youll know that it was real knock(which yours is). We had a bitch of a timing trying to get rid of 1 fbkc count after a shift, slowly decreasing the particular timing did help and I raised my fist and yelled in excitement. If you experience such success. We ended up with a total timing of 10-11* at full torque going to 20-22 right before the next shift(6400). Im not a fan of low timing in fear of EGTs and exhaust valves, but every other table checked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Your AF numbers seem off, but I always find it hard to tell with cars that have AP. I believe that the AF Learning 1 is the AF trim that is applied at that airflow, meaning that your AF Trim A is at -1.56%, which is fine. But then I look at your partial and WOT logs and it looks like you're deeply negative, which means the ECU is pulling fuel because it thinks your car is running rich, which may unintentionally cause you to run lean at WOT which can cause the knock. Someone else jump in here please? Maybe you should go back to the stock map and see how things go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNVAR Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 You have classic 5eat shift knock. That's what I thought initially too but if you look at his recent WOT log, at rows 33-34, he gets two new knock events even though he's not in the process of shifting. You can tell it's new because KS increases from 2 to 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted September 23, 2012 Share Posted September 23, 2012 Then i would suspect a fueling issue in open loop. Either the table is inappropriate or his learned trims are effecting his OL. Which is why tuners set D range above 70/75/80. So that when the ecu pulls fuel(like during heatsoak) it doesnt affect open loop where the engine can quickly become a barn door doorstop(at higher than stock power levels). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 Holy shit ripe meat you are awesome... Unfortunately clark turner said it was tuned as much as he could.... I sent him the logs and he got pissed saying there was nothing more he could do. It is ironic that you quoted him as having to have some experience on this and knows how to tune it out.... Whats even more ironic is that he tells me the tune is good to go. But it obviously needs a little more tweaking but doesnt seem to think it needs it. I have been trying to get tuned by Infamous now for a few months and I am stuck on rev2 with him and at wot I get the same shift knock, I am hoping I get rev 3 soon because I didnt think rev2 would be safe to drive on, but I may give it a chance over my current tune since it seems to wanna act up. here is my auto wot log from infamous https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AvjuAcEqRlEfdGg1eFBvLTg5YmpDRldzTTVsX1dvOVE Does this log look safer than my current ones? I didnt want to keep driving on it because it has knock in the log, and due to the time it took to get revisions was very long as I am still waiting for rev3 and its been almost 2 weeks, and I resent him the logs again like a week ago. When I started with Clark I didn't have any Knock correction I don't know about fine-knock as he did not have me log that. Rev2 was my final map and all done in like a week and all was good. And now all of the sudden Clarks tune started acting all goofy. I was worried about driving on infamous rev2 because of the knock but now I am thinking about it because it was not as prevalent like my current logs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 23, 2012 Author Share Posted September 23, 2012 I would put the stock map on but I have a PW TMIC on as I was gonna go stage 2 in the spring with DP but now I dont know about stage 2 anymore... Gentlemen I really do greatly appreciate the help and honest concern.. Thank you so very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 both logs suck. it's okay to use the stock map and an upgraded intercooler. you more than likely will under boost targets, but if i were you id use the stock map and re-evaluate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 if the tune is just starting to acting goofy now then i suspect a mechanical issue. your learned a/f trims in WOT arent good. you're probably leaning out too much. could have a post-maf leak somewhere causing open loop to lean out, perform a boost leak test asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 Lmao yeah I know both logs suck, which one sucks less and not harm more harm? I thought you had to have a tune to run and upgraded tmic and I have a 3 port ebcs so I am looking for an oem BCS I already sent out the bat signal in the wanted section....then I will flash stock map.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ripemeat Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 for an ebcs yes you'll need a tune. you'll overboost all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 yeah I did a boost test about a month ago and fixed all leaks I had to jb weld the spigots on the perrin inlet as they were leaking and the perrin coupler to MAF was to small for cobb post maf, I had one fabbed up and all good, I am wondering if a sensor is going bad.. or if my airbox itself is leaking somewhere.... imma put rtv on all hoses next time before I clamp em done lol I did have a shady shop who protuned my car and never realized the bpv gasket was missing and tuned around...well they also put the perrin inlet on and step on colder pluggs. I am wondering if they effed up the plugs not gapped them or wrong ones in general... Yes my tuning experience has been very diificult to say the least. Yet I remain determined to get his car running good even if I have to put stock parts and map on to evaluate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Catalyst. Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 Derek, I have the OEM BCS if you haven't located it yet and will send it to you for the cost of shipping. Just read what's been going on and I feel for you man. Shoot me a PM if you want it. I hope you don't throw in the towel on the LGT yet - but given what you have gone through I understand having those thoughts. Just hope you don't. If you do... I want your PW! (let's just hope it doesn't get to that point). My spec.B [#163] Project Thread with Pictures Get CryoTuned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 Oh man I wish I had waited a lil longer on bcs......... I bought one last night and the oem t-line from subarupartforyou. I am still looking for the oem inlet and post Maf hose. I am thinking of putting it back to stock and getting a forester or outback, in 4eat or v6, I think that the regular 4eat may be too slow for me.. My wife says I am not allowed a turbo car after all the money I put into this and previously with my WRX lol. she isnt too happy. But I found a 08 outback limited with a turbo 64k miles just like my legacy just on roids! but I am afraid I will want to modify it, yes I lack self control. I am seriously considering trading for it unless the dealer low balls me on price or if the wife threatens to cut my balls off cuz its turbo'ed I may have to pass on it, but it is sharp. Regardless, If I trade it in or not, I will probably go back to stock anyways... that way of something happens it will be easier to get warranty to cover it. I need something more rugged for hunting and fishing plus a roof rack too for some kayaks I been wanting to buy for a year but cant because no roof racks @Catalyst I will definately let you get the PW if I go stock and decide to stay stock or trade her in. I believe$650 plus shipping is fair price. When the time rolls around probably here in a few weeks, and there are two turbo to tmic hoses for it cuz the first on was to short. So I had them replace it and got a new one that does fit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekDaniel Posted September 24, 2012 Author Share Posted September 24, 2012 If I flash the stock map back can I still use the accessport to datalog? My stock ecu data I saved to my desktop and for some reason the accessport cant identify it.. any thoughts why? and could this be a potential problem flashing back to oem map? I know cobb has an oem version but I wanna try an use the real deal in case dealer peeks around... Thanks for all the help advice and guidance!!!! very rare to find this especially over at nasioc lol I think people do more bitchin than helping over there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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