GWIM got a 2011 Sportage SX (AWD), Rick bought a GTI..

[Kario]

I have not driven a Subaru flat-4 diesel so I can't really compared it to a VW's 2.0 TDI. But I simply can't believe that Subaru's H4 Diesel is "miles ahead of Audi/VW 2.0 TDI". The H4 diesel is Subaru's first foray into diesel technology. And the engine does not even have the Common Rail Fuel injection technology which is really the holy grail to Clean Diesel. That is the main reason why Subaru can't bring their diesel over - it's not clean enough for US regulations. BTW, VW is celebrating 35 years of Turbo Diesel technology this year. Subaru is not even a toddler in terms of that technology!

Well, the Subaru diesel H4 is a common rail engine. It also uses an aluminium block and that is rare in diesel engines. It is very nicely balanced and feels like an engine has an excellent throttle response (feels like internals are light, just like in every boxer engine). It has far less vibrations that I4 diesel engines and does not use balance shafts.

As far as emission are concerned its as clean as other diesels.

[ShrinerMonkey]

The 2012 BMW 335d leases VERY well, but the problem is it's only real wheel drive. Not exactly the driving partner I want on steep twisty mountain roads in the dead of the winter driving on unplowed or packed down snow and ice.

Snow tires = problem solved

[BAC5.2]

Diesel is cheaper by me than 93.

 

IMO, range is more important than fuel economy. 10mpg will save a good chunk of change, but more importantly, it'll cause me to fill up less frequently.

 

I wish the tank in my Outback were twice as large. It would cost more to fill it up all the way, but my time is worth more than a few mpg's, so I'd be saving money by filling up half as often.

 

If I ever get a pickup truck, I'm going straight to Titan for a 65-gallon tank. It'll cost me a packet to fuel it up, but I'll get more than a thousand miles per tank and that saves me money.

[RyanGT]

Diesel is cheaper by me than 93.

 

......... Titan for a 65-gallon tank. It'll cost me a packet to fuel it up, but I'll get more than a thousand miles per tank and that saves me money.

 

I like your Math... keep at it and you may win the Nobel Prize!

[RyanGT]

Well, the Subaru diesel H4 is a common rail engine. It also uses an aluminium block and that is rare in diesel engines. It is very nicely balanced and feels like an engine has an excellent throttle response (feels like internals are light, just like in every boxer engine). It has far less vibrations that I4 diesel engines and does not use balance shafts.

As far as emission are concerned its as clean as other diesels.

 

I mis-spoke. What I meant to say was Common Rail with Piezoelectric injectors which is the fuel delivery system used by VW/Audi, BMW, MB, and other European marques. Subaru's still uses the solenoid injectors which are a generation behind. So when you say Subaru H4 diesel engine is miles ahead of Audi, that is simply not true.

 

Yes, any H4 configuration which is naturally balanced will have far less vibrations that I4 engines, gasoline or diesel. That is inherent with that design. Before you keep bashing Audi/VW new I4 2.0 TDI, have you ever test driven one and felt that it was rough? I have been driving one for the past 4 months, and it's far from rough. It's actually very refined and un-diesel like. I almost can't believe how smooth it is once it's warmed up. The older 1.9 TDIs are a different story.

[Kario]

Yes, any H4 configuration which is naturally balanced will have far less vibrations that I4 engines, gasoline or diesel. That is inherent with that design. Before you keep bashing Audi/VW new I4 2.0 TDI, have you ever test driven one and felt that it was rough? I have been driving one for the past 4 months, and it's far from rough. It's actually very refined and un-diesel like. I almost can't believe how smooth it is once it's warmed up. The older 1.9 TDIs are a different story.

 

Yes, I have driven Audi A3 with a DSG gearbox. Vibrations are not an issue when you pick up speed, but when you are standing on traffic lights and the engine is at idle... but that I have driven other Audis, and their engine refinment is generaly much worse than subaru. H4 > I4 in terms of refinement and H6 > Audi's V6 or V8.

H4 diesel is in its own class in terms of engine refinement.

And who cares about the injectors generation, when the engine is lighter, has less rotational mass and just feels better.

It might be ahead or not depending on how you define your point of view. For me its a much better engine with not the latest injectors technology.

Said that I would not by a Subaru diesel or any other diesel engine, and I live in Europe

[BAC5.2]

I like your Math... keep at it and you may win the Nobel Prize!

 

I don't think you understand...

 

If it takes me 15 minutes to stop and fill up, that is an undisclosed dollar amount that I'm not making if I got to work 15 minutes earlier.

 

That dollar amount I am missing out on is far greater than me saving 10 cents a gallon even on a 65 gallon tank.

 

A 65 gallon tank only has to get 15.3MPG to last me 1000 miles.

 

And with a 1000 mile range, I can stop for fuel whenever convenient (when I couldn't be making money at work, for example). Not to mention that filling up once for 65 gallons of fuel takes less time than stopping twice to fill up a 32.5 gallon tank (Actual fill time doesn't just include pumping time).

 

So, I'd rather have a greater range than a decrease in fuel prices. Though, in all honesty, I would prefer both.

 

If diesel and gasoline were the same price, the added range of the diesel saves you money more than once. It saves you on effective dollars per mile, and in dollars per minute.

[bdisco]

After my stints with Subaru '02 WRX & '05 Legacy, I'm back in a TDI. My first TDI was a '98 silver Beetle (I know chick-car, but it was a diesel, so it wasn't a chick-car) 5 speed manual. My commute is not that long at 40 mile round trip, I would refuel every other week. But a second child on the way and the thought of squeezing another child seat in a 2-door + a test drive in the WRX I was sold. I enjoyed my Subbies but every week I was at the pump I would think "Man, I wish I had kept that TDI." Even with all season tires I would routinely pass other cars as they slipped and slid in the snow. FWD and some common sense will get you through most winters.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2010-vw-golf-tdi-140904.html

 

My winter wheels & rubber. I put these on after Thanksgiving took them off early April.

 

Tires are cheep but effective http://www.federaltire.com/en/html/p...pdline=3&ID=35 Himalaya WS1

 

 

 

So far 8k trouble free miles and zero trips to the stealer. I'm adding http://www.powerservice.com/dfs/ at every fill up just in case.

[RyanGT]

Hey bdisco, that's one sexy looking TDI! I was wondering when you are gonna post wiht a pic of your TDI. Schweet!

[RyanGT]

I don't think you understand...

 

If it takes me 15 minutes to stop and fill up, that is an undisclosed dollar amount that I'm not making if I got to work 15 minutes earlier.

 

That dollar amount I am missing out on is far greater than me saving 10 cents a gallon even on a 65 gallon tank.

 

A 65 gallon tank only has to get 15.3MPG to last me 1000 miles.

 

And with a 1000 mile range, I can stop for fuel whenever convenient (when I couldn't be making money at work, for example). Not to mention that filling up once for 65 gallons of fuel takes less time than stopping twice to fill up a 32.5 gallon tank (Actual fill time doesn't just include pumping time).

 

So, I'd rather have a greater range than a decrease in fuel prices. Though, in all honesty, I would prefer both.

 

If diesel and gasoline were the same price, the added range of the diesel saves you money more than once. It saves you on effective dollars per mile, and in dollars per minute.

 

Actually I honestly don't understand your logic. Unless you are spending every waking minute making money i.e. 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, your logic doesn't hold. If you not, then you need to look into scheduling your time better before resorting to buy a vehicle with a 65 gallon tank for that 1000 mile range. BTW, do Titans come with a 65 gallon tank? The Nissan website stated 28 gallons capacity for the fuel tank.

 

Just to indulge you, let's say that vehicle exists and it has a 65 gallon fuel tank and consume 15mpg to give you approx 1000 mile range. Compared to the LGT, which has approx a 15 gallon tank and approx 21 mpg combined rating. To drive approx 1000 mile range, you will have to fill up 2 more times with the LGT. At the price of $4 a gallon, you would have to spend $200 more filling up the 65 gallon tank. One way to look at it is that the $200 more is "well worth it" b/c you are spending 30 mins less at the gas station. Another way is to look at the differential in mpg: 1000 miles in the LGT will cost $76 less than the Titan truck at $4/gal. So the question now becomes are you making $152 an hour?

[RyanGT]

Yes, I have driven Audi A3 with a DSG gearbox. Vibrations are not an issue when you pick up speed, but when you are standing on traffic lights and the engine is at idle... but that I have driven other Audis, and their engine refinment is generaly much worse than subaru. H4 > I4 in terms of refinement and H6 > Audi's V6 or V8.

H4 diesel is in its own class in terms of engine refinement.

I have no argument with you regarding the 'perceived' refinement of boxer engines over inline 4's or V-configuration 6's or 8's engine. They all make different sounds. Believe me, the first time I was standing next to a friend's 2.0T Audi A4 while idling, I actually thought the engine was very rough sounding. I wondered how did that engine win Ward's Best Engines 5 years in a row. I discovered the reason why it sounded 'rough' was because it uses stratified fuel injection or gasoline engine version of what TDIs have started using. We are back to the common rail fuel delivery again. The 2.0T at low load goes into ultra lean burn. That is the reason why it sounds like the engine is about to stall == rough sounding. Again that's just the characteristic of the engine/fuel delivery design, NOT a defect or poor design. It has nothing to do with engine refinement. I guarantee you that within a couple years when Subaru decides to use direct injection in their cars, you will be put off by the "unrefined rough sounding idle noise".

 

And who cares about the injectors generation, when the engine is lighter, has less rotational mass and just feels better.

It might be ahead or not depending on how you define your point of view. For me its a much better engine with not the latest injectors technology.

Said that I would not by a Subaru diesel or any other diesel engine, and I live in Europe

The EPA cares about injectors generation; not that it uses that to determine how clean an engine burns. With piezo-electric injectors, you can precisely control how much fuel is injected into the cylinders. The most advanced diesel engines from Audi/VW can inject up to 8 times per cycle depending on loads. You cannot do that with the solenoid injectors that Subaru uses. So it's not my point of view that piezo-electric injectors are more advanced than solenoid injectors, it's just plain facts. Again, I guarantee you that Subaru WILL switch to piezo-electric injectors. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when. They spent a lot of money to design the H4 diesel and probably ran out of money to source the advanced injectors in the first round.

 

Here's another point on engine design. I am glad that Subaru has held on the boxer design. While the engine is unique, interesting and balanced, they have designed themselves into a corner. They absolutely cannot source engines from another manufacturer unless it's a boxer design. And who else has boxer engines? Porsche. Pigs will fly the day Porsche source their engines to Subaru at the price point we are paying. Other manufacturers routinely source inline 4 diesel engines from VW or Peugeot.

[BAC5.2]

Actually I honestly don't understand your logic. Unless you are spending every waking minute making money i.e. 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, your logic doesn't hold.

 

My time, no matter when it is, is worth something. Whether it's time with my family, at work, or enjoying hobbies. My time is worth something. Isn't yours?

 

If you not, then you need to look into scheduling your time better before resorting to buy a vehicle with a 65 gallon tank for that 1000 mile range. BTW, do Titans come with a 65 gallon tank? The Nissan website stated 28 gallons capacity for the fuel tank.

http://www.titanfueltanks.com/

 

I thought it was clear that I wasn't talking about a Nissan when I said that I'd go "straight to Titan for a 65 gallon tank". I should have been more clear, I guess.

 

Just to indulge you, let's say that vehicle exists and it has a 65 gallon fuel tank and consume 15mpg to give you approx 1000 mile range. Compared to the LGT, which has approx a 15 gallon tank and approx 21 mpg combined rating. To drive approx 1000 mile range, you will have to fill up 2 more times with the LGT. At the price of $4 a gallon, you would have to spend $200 more filling up the 65 gallon tank. One way to look at it is that the $200 more is "well worth it" b/c you are spending 30 mins less at the gas station. Another way is to look at the differential in mpg: 1000 miles in the LGT will cost $76 less than the Titan truck at $4/gal. So the question now becomes are you making $152 an hour?

I'm not comparing two different vehicles with different economies. I'm comparing the same vehicle with different fuel capacities.

 

The standard tank in an F250 is around 30 gallons. That means that I'll be filling up twice as often, and it'll cost about half as much (at $4/gal, it'll cost $120 to fill the 30 gallon tank, vs $260 to fill the 65 gal tank). The total cost to cover miles is the same (same fuel economy, same dollars per mile), but I spend more than twice as long filling up. Since my time is worth something, that extra time costs me something.

 

Would you be happy with a car that got 50mpg, but only had a 1 gallon fuel tank? How much nicer would it be, if you had a 10 gallon tank? Or a 15 gallon tank? I bet that would be worth something to you, right?

 

I could understand not appreciating range if you don't drive much. But for me, right now, I fill up every other day.

[RuskiTrombone]

It's simple economics. The time spent at the pump is time not spent doing other activities. Everything has a perceived value, even though it may not be defined. For instance, would you take a job that is closer to home with a flexible schedule or would you take a job that requires for you to commute 1 to 2 hours each way with an undesirable schedule?

 

With that being said, this rational completely escapes most female buyers. I've sold cars for a living, I know. They would rather buy a car that has a lower total to fill up at the pump, than a car that gets higher gas mileage. Try to explain that rational?!

[BAC5.2]

It's simple economics. The time spent at the pump is time not spent doing other activities. Everything has a perceived value, even though it may not be defined. For instance, would you take a job that is closer to home with a flexible schedule or would you take a job that requires for you to commute 1 to 2 hours each way with an undesirable schedule?

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands this.

 

It doesn't take twice as long to fill a fuel tank that is twice as large.

 

You can make that $1.4M check for that Nobel Prize out to Cash. Thanks.

 

With that being said, this rational completely escapes most female buyers. I've sold cars for a living, I know. They would rather buy a car that has a lower total to fill up at the pump, than a car that gets higher gas mileage. Try to explain that rational?!

 

You can't. I sold Nissans for a summer. There is no explaining why people make some of the decisions they do. One guy wanted an Armada, but was disappointed in the fuel economy. So he bought a Sentra. Sometimes, after a particularly spicy dinner, I am reminded of that situation and contemplate the logic behind that decision for a few minutes.

[Tomkat1127]

http://www.titanfueltanks.com/

 

I thought it was clear that I wasn't talking about a Nissan when I said that I'd go "straight to Titan for a 65 gallon tank". I should have been more clear, I guess.

 

To make you feel better and for the record, I knew that you meant Titan fuel tanks and not the Nissan truck.

 

I once told someone I had a F150 with a 4.6L V8 Triton engine and was asked why I had a Nissan motor in a Ford. All you can do is shake your head is disbelief. Not everyone has the same needs, viewpoints or intellect. Natural selction needs to start working faster to weed out these idoits:lol:

[Rick]

I'll be test driving the TDI Golf tomorrow. I'm driving 100 miles round trip a day for work, so I need something that is both economical but also fun to drive. If I don't like it, I will buy another Legacy GT.

[BAC5.2]

I'll be test driving the TDI Golf tomorrow. I'm driving 100 miles round trip a day for work, so I need something that is both economical but also fun to drive. If I don't like it, I will buy another Legacy GT.

 

I doubt you won't like it. They are awesome cars.

[godwhomismike]

.....

[BAC5.2]

Damn leasing!!! I want out of the Forester now, but still got 3 months to go on the damn lease. Want a Golf TDI in the worst way. The Golf TDI shall be a purchase/finance, if I don't like it, I hear the trade in value is quite high on them. Someone on the TDI forum I am on bought a 2009 Jetta TDI for $24K, and just traded it in for a 2011 Golf TDI. The dealer gave him $22K for the trade in on the Jetta TDI. Cost him $2K for the two years he had the Jetta and all of the maintenance was free.

 

Sounds about right. Fuel price scares drive TDI prices up.

[godwhomismike]

.....

[ShrinerMonkey]

What is the point of buying a more expensive TDI model to only trade it in after 3 years before you can come close to the break-even point on the fuel savings? Unless you drive an insane amount of miles per year, this makes no economic sense at all, or the TDI engine appeals to you for other reasons...mmmmmm...torque.

 

The fact that diesel models and fuel are so much more expensive than their petrol counterparts will assure that diesel remains a non-starter in the US. With turbo charged and DI engines becoming common even on economy compacts, diesel passenger car days are numbered.

[godwhomismike]

.....

[bdisco]

Big soccer tournament this past weekend. Told the wife to take the Tdi Saturday (her MDX gets 17mpg) I'll take Sunday (1st game 7:30 AM WTF:eek: ) approx 85 miles one way. Half state and local roads / half highway. Average mpg for both days 42.5. Diesel is now around the same price as regular, nice !

[RuskiTrombone]

Damn leasing!!! I want out of the Forester now, but still got 3 months to go on the damn lease. Want a Golf TDI in the worst way. The Golf TDI shall be a purchase/finance, if I don't like it, I hear the trade in value is quite high on them. Someone on the TDI forum I am on bought a 2009 Jetta TDI for $24K, and just traded it in for a 2011 Golf TDI. The dealer gave him $22K for the trade in on the Jetta TDI. Cost him $2K for the two years he had the Jetta and all of the maintenance was free.

 

Did he buy the 2009 new or used? I am presuming you meant new and it only cost him $2K after two years of driving.

 

I'll be the first to say BS! Something is wrong with his math and the only way I'll believe that fairy tale is if I see his paperwork. If the dealer gave him that much, then he overpaid for the new car he bought.

[godwhomismike]

.....