krzyss Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 For you German or Polish speaking guys: Auto Motor und Sport (Polish edition is Auto motor i sport) published new winter tire test: http://www.auto-motor-i-sport.pl/testy/test-opon-zimowych-opony-zimowe-test-2011-12909-2.html end results http://www.auto-motor-i-sport.pl/Test_opon_zimowych_2011/opony_o_rozmiarze.html and original German http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/testbericht/winterreifen-test-2011-bieten-premium-marken-auch-premium-sicherheit-4013883.html Krzys PS Short version 1. Goodyear Ultra Grip 8 - no weak spots except braking on dry 2. Continental Winter Contact TS830 - not as good as GY but still very good 3. Michelin Alpin 4 - more prone to aquaplaning 4. Nokian WR D3 - average on wet but the best in the snow (max 100/100) 5. Dunlop Winter Sport 4D - weak traction on snow (or rather weaker than tires that placed higher) 6. Vredestein Snow Trac3 - weaker in wet (the brand belongs to Indian company Apollo) 7. Pirelli Snow Control 3 - wet weak 8. Toyo Snowprox S 953 9. Sava Eskimo HP (GY brand) 10. Fulda Kristall Control HP 11. Bridgestone Blizzak LM-32 12. Apollo Acelere Winter - very good in dry 13. Falken Eurowinter HS439 - worst in the test on the snow 14. GT Radial Champiro WinterPro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 ^That looks like a graph from CR. Yes, according to CR, when new some all seasons can perform as well as a winter tire when tested for braking in an ice rink at 10 mph. But ice performance of the all-season will degrade more rapidly with aging, compared to a true winter tire. And the colder it gets, the better the winter tire will perform, whereas the all-season will get worse on ice. Winter tires get worse as they age too. Probably even more than all seasons. Studded tires are loud, rip up the road and handle like tires on ball bearings too. Many manufacturers put mileage warranties on winter tires to help them sell. In order to do that, the manufacturer uses a stiffer compound with less siping at low point of the treadwear to get people to buy them. Then they are practically useless in winter and summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Many manufacturers put mileage warranties on winter tires to help them sell. Which manufacturer does this? I only know of Michelin that has quite useless one. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=X-Ice+Xi2 One must wear winter tire to 2/32nd before 6 years or 40K miles. Tirerack has a note that they suggest replacing winter tires when they reach 5/32nd. So one would need to drive on unsafe tire to claim warranty. It may be better to play lottery. Krzys PS I treat all milage warranties as marketing ploy and nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Here's the legal limit for winter tires 3mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmmrdwn Posted November 5, 2011 Share Posted November 5, 2011 Which manufacturer does this? I only know of Michelin that has quite useless one. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=X-Ice+Xi2 One must wear winter tire to 2/32nd before 6 years or 40K miles. Tirerack has a note that they suggest replacing winter tires when they reach 5/32nd. So one would need to drive on unsafe tire to claim warranty. It may be better to play lottery. Krzys PS I treat all milage warranties as marketing ploy and nothing else. Who wants to drive a winter tire to 2/32nds? Thats the point exactly about warranties. Someone brought up that the all seasons were new tires and that they wouldn't perform the same when worn. Why compare a worn tire to a brand new one? You just proved the point I was making by saying worn winter tires also have diminshed stopping capability. It's well known that many snow tires use a stiffer compound underneath. I've driven on many winter tires throughout varying winter temperatures and with different tread depths. Winter tires are a compromise and have negative handling and braking capabilities in many areas. It takes intelligent driving above anything else. Good equipment doesn't hurt though. Winter tires don't make a car invincible any more than 4 wheel drive or awd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 6, 2011 Author Share Posted November 6, 2011 ................................. 1. Goodyear Ultra Grip 8 - no weak spots except braking on dry 2. Continental Winter Contact TS830 - not as good as GY but still very good 3. Michelin Alpin 4 - more prone to aquaplaning 4. Nokian WR D3 - average on wet but the best in the snow (max 100/100) 5. Dunlop Winter Sport 4D - weak traction on snow (or rather weaker than tires that placed higher).............................................................. Too bad the Continental TS830 (and TS830P) is not sold in the USA. Over the last few years of European tests, it always seems to do very well, even doing better than Michelin's and Dunlop's latest and greatest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiymeh Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Does anyone here know the smallest rim size we can drop down to? I want to buy a set of rims for my "thicker" walled winter tires, but am not sure on what size to get and still keep some performance too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Does anyone here know the smallest rim size we can drop down to? I want to buy a set of rims for my "thicker" walled winter tires, but am not sure on what size to get and still keep some performance too. What car? Krzys PS 2005-2009 Legacy GT needs 17", there are supposedly very few 16" that fit but I think it is urban legend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiymeh Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 2010 Legacy GT, it appears that that are not that many 16" wheels available, well at least ones that I'd want on my car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Another Russian winter tire test, in 175/65-14, of 9 studded and 6 non-studdable tires. Some of the tires tested are available in north America, some are not. http://www.zr.ru/a/357643/ Too bad Google Translate struggles with Russian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 16, 2011 Author Share Posted November 16, 2011 I've got a question about the bar graphs. Inside the bar graph there is a small line that appears to indicate the spread of tires within the category. Some winters were better than other winters, some all season better than all seasons, etc. The question comes up though.....did some of the good all seasons perform as well as the winter tires? It appears that way. It's possible to buy winter tires that perform worse on ice than quite a few all season tires. Maybe I'm misreading that graph. It also looks like the best all season almost performed as well as the best winter tire. http://news.consumerreports.org/a/6a00d83451e0d569e2014e86cf5472970d-800wi Related to the above is this recent blog post from CR: http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2011/11/tires-winter-is-comingwhat-are-you-waiting-for.html They are showing that in the recent group of SUV & pickup tires they tested, the winter tires averaged about 15% better for ice braking and about 41% better for snow acceleration than the all-seasons. But the trade off was poorer wet braking (averaging about 21% worse) and poorer dry braking (averaging around 18% poorer), compared to the all-seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I've got a question about the bar graphs. Inside the bar graph there is a small line that appears to indicate the spread of tires within the category. Some winters were better than other winters, some all season better than all seasons, etc. The question comes up though.....did some of the good all seasons perform as well as the winter tires? It appears that way. It's possible to buy winter tires that perform worse on ice than quite a few all season tires. Maybe I'm misreading that graph. It also looks like the best all season almost performed as well as the best winter tire. http://news.consumerreports.org/a/6a00d83451e0d569e2014e86cf5472970d-800wi There's one factor missing there - the temperature at which the test was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 16, 2011 Author Share Posted November 16, 2011 There's one factor missing there - the temperature at which the test was done. Yes, I agree. Temperature can have a huge effect on tire testing results. But I have never seen the test temperature (tire temp, ambient temp, or surface temp) revealed in any of the routine winter tire tests in the US, Russia, or Europe. For example, the most recent test results at NAF only stated that they tested at different temperatures on different days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 ^^^ Actually, I see that the Russian auto magazine Za Rulem (sp?) is including the test temperatures in their results table. Kudos to them. http://www.zr.ru/a/357643/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 Winter tires get worse as they age too. Probably even more than all seasons. ............ I haven't seen any tests comparing ice traction of aged winter tires vs aged all-season tires, so I can't say with certainty that you are incorrect. But I would be very, very surprised if winter tires lost more of their ice traction than all-seasons because of aging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 18, 2011 Author Share Posted November 18, 2011 Here is an interesting tire test from the Swedish magazine Vi Bilagare, in which new winter tires are compared to their twins that have been worn (shaved?) down to 6/32". Tires tested: Continental VikingContact5 (new) Continental VikingContact5 (used) Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice + (new) Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice + (Used) Hankook Icebear W440 (new) Hankook Icebear W440 (second hand) Michelin X-ICE2 (new) Michelin X-ICE2 (used) Nokian Hakkapeliitta R (new) Nokian Hakkapeliitta R (used) If I understand it correctly from the imperfect Google translation, they shaved half of the new tires down to 5mm (6/32") then drove them all for 200km before starting testing? In real world use, the worn tires would also be more aged than the new tires with full tread, but that is apparently not the case in this test, and so I don't think this test tells us completely how these tires will perform in real world use when they are at 5mm tread depth and have been in use for 3 or 4 seasons. But there is still some interesting info in this test. http://www.vibilagare.se/sites/default/files/vibilagare/documents/vinterdack_2011_friktionsdack_hog.pdf ".........The braking distance on wet road was 43 meters with our C30's original summer. The worn Continental winter tires stood still for 54 meters. Some of the best Nordic friction tires had stopping distances in the worn condition of 88 meters! So do not say that it's okay to tear down the winter tires in summer! Steps moose on the road, you have a braking distance of 88 meters rather than 43 meters. It may actually be the difference between life and death!.........." http://www.vibilagare.se/test/dack/dacktest-2011-odubbade-vinterdack-34652 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 20, 2011 Author Share Posted November 20, 2011 A test of the following tires is available as a PDF download from Teknikens Varld: Bridgestone Noranza 2 EVO Continental ContiIceContact Goodyear UltraGrip Extreme Michelin X-ice North Nokian Hakkapeliitta 7 Pirelli Winter Carving Edge Bridgestone Blizzak Nordic Continental ContiVikingContact 5 Goodyear UltraGrip + Michelin X-ICE Nokian Hakkapeliitta R Pirelli Ice Control Winter Bridgestone Blizzak LM32 AZ Continental ContiWinterContact TS 830 Goodyear UltraGrip 8 Michelin Alpin A4 Nokian WR D3 Pirelli Winter 210 SnowControl serie 3 http://www.teknikensvarld.se/2011/09/15/24471/vinterdacktest-2011/ There is an interesting chart in the above test, clearly showing how improved ice/snow traction comes at the cost of worse hydroplaning resistance. They tested for the speeds at which hydroplaning began. For performance winters, the range was 79.5-66.6 km/hr For studded winters, the range was 54.4-48.3 km/hr For "ice&snow" winters, the range was 49.6-43.4 km/hr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Have you spent all weekend looking at results? We had beautiful weather here in MA, almost 70F. We enjoyed day in Boston. :-) Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Have you spent all weekend looking at results?...:-) Krzys Almost! We topped out at a temperature of 25 degF over the weekend, and had a few inches of snow. Not as bad as parts of Alaska, where they are seeing -35 degF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 Here is a German website that is a summation of winter tire tests from a variety of European magazines. I believe it mostly covers performance winters. http://www.testberichte.de/testsieger/level3_reifen_und_felgen_winterreifen_553.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 The only head to head comparison tests of the Michelin X-Ice Xi2 and Bridgestone Blizzak WS70 that I know of are the 2010 Tire Rack test and the 2011 Test World (Finland) test (published in NAF, Auto Review, etc). Both tested tire size 205/55-16. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=135 http://www.naf.no/Alle-saker/NAF-eksperten/Forbrukertester/Dekktest/Vinterdekktest-2011/Tabelloversikt/ In Tire Rack testing, the Blizzak WS70 was superior to the Michelin Xi2 in these areas: ice braking ice handling ice acceleration dry braking The WS70 was inferior to the Xi2 in these areas: wet braking fuel economy noise ride comfort The results from Test World paint a different picture. The WS70 was superior to the Xi2 in one parameter: wet braking The WS70 was equal to the Xi2 in one parameter: handling on a snow course The WS70 was inferior to the Xi2 in these parameters: ice braking (by 5m!) ice acceleration (by 1.6 sec) ice handling snow braking snow acceleration fuel economy noise P.S. Tire Rack did not test for snow performance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 I was interested in comparing these 3 winter tires, and ranking their performance: Michelin X-Ice Xi2 Nokian Hakkapeliitta R Continental ContiVikingContact 5 (which appears to be a twin of the ExtremeWinterContact sold in the USA) So I looked at these 4 Scandinavian and Russian 2011 winter tire test reports: http://www.vibilagare.se/sites/default/files/vibilagare/documents/vinterdack_2011_friktionsdack_hog.pdf http://www.teknikensvarld.se/2011/09/15/24471/vinterdacktest-2011/ http://www.naf.no/Alle-saker/NAF-eksperten/Forbrukertester/Dekktest/Vinterdekktest-2011/Tabelloversikt/ http://www.zr.ru/a/357643/ In many performance parameters, there was no consensus among the 4 test reports as to how the tires should be ranked. Listed below are the consensus conclusions I found (for some parameters, like hydroplaning, slush planing, etc there were only 2 or 3 data sets to examine, instead of 4). A. Ice braking: Xi2 > HakkaR > CVC5 B. Ice acceleration: no consensus ranking C. Ice handling: no consensus D. Snow braking: no consensus E. Snow acceleration: Xi2 is consistent 3rd place finisher F. Snow handling: Xi2 is consistent 3rd place finisher G. Slush planing resistance: Xi2 is consistent 3rd place finisher H. Hydroplaning resistance: HakkaR > Xi2 I. Wet braking: no consensus J. Wet handling: no consensus K. Dry braking: no consensus L. Fuel economy: HakkaR is consistently #1 M. Tire noise: no consensus To sum it up, the Xi2 is consistently the strongest of the 3 in ice braking (up to 7.5m shorter, at 50km/h to 0), and consistently the weakest of the 3 on snow and slush, and is inferior to the HakkaR in hydroplaning resistance. The HakkaR has the lowest rolling resistance of the 3 tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Sounds like the Hakka R is the one to get them if you encounter a variety of conditions. Just look at the tread of the xi2 - it's clearly not aggressive enough for good snow performance, but the same thing that makes it poorer in snow makes it better on ice. You can't have it all Well, unless you run the studded Hakka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 The variations in the tests are likely to depend on vehicle used (especially noise) and temperature. But as long as you select a tire that is consistently among the top 5 in all tests you should get a decent tire. Interesting to see that there aren't much tests done in the US of winter tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Interesting to see that there aren't much tests done in the US of winter tires. That's because most people on this side of the pond would rather just rely on their VDC, ABS, TCS, DSC, TC, etc... than bother with proper tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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