LittleBlueGT Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Quick update: Had the FX300/WRX FW/TSK3/Group N Tranny bushings installed. So far really, really happy with the drivability/feel of this setup. Still breaking it in, but my initial thoughts are that clutch wieght is actually softer/lighter than stock and engagement is clearly meatier (not an on/off feeling). With the stock clutch I would get some chattering when starting from a stop on a hill. With this clutch, it is all very, very smooth...not sure if it is a result of the bushing or the clutch/flywheel. I have no odd noises or any drivability problems, NVH is exactly as stock IMO. Any recomendations on break in? I am pretty much babying it, no WOT, no quick takeoffs from a stop, no high RPM downshifting. Also, cheaped out and got the DW 850 (sorry LBGT!), waiting to break in the clutch before installing and tuning them. I just hope you don't get any high rpm lean spots. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpmarky Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 My mech recommended 500 mile break in, just don't beat on it, try not to slip the clutch and drive it like normal. Nothing too special <3 the fx300 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryo Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Quick update: Had the FX300/WRX FW/TSK3/Group N Tranny bushings installed. So far really, really happy with the drivability/feel of this setup.. I did the same setup minus the tranny bushings. 500 mile breakin like stated above, just drive like a grandma in a buick. Then you can give it hell. I have thrown a few 91oct low boost pulls at this clutch/flywheel setup and like you said I have NO extra NVH in my opinion at wot or cruising. I will be switching back to e85 in the next week or so and testing the holding capacity but I have seen quite a few put down much more power with no ill complaints. I'm sure you will be quite pleased. Dave [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Providing unmatched customer service and a Premium level of Dyno/E-tuning to the Community cryotuneperformance@yahoo.com facebook.com/cryotuneperformance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Also, cheaped out and got the DW 850 (sorry LBGT!), waiting to break in the clutch before installing and tuning them. After you install them, take a close look at your AFRs in WOT pulls and half-throttle pulls. If you don't have a wideband, then have your tuner do this. It's possible to get lean spots around certain RPM/load points, but be on target at the same MAF at different RPM or load. You can tune around it, but only if you find it first, and that's more likely to happen if you go looking for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 Thanks for the break in advice. I have WB02 and will definately keep a close eye on fueling..my 740s tuned pretty well, but after reading some of the experiences people have had with the 850s I will be extra cautious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 Still waiting to fully break in the clutch, so far it has been fantastic. I have another E85 question: Typically, assuming a properly scaled MAF table, there is a somewhat direct relation between Maf V (and/or g/sec) and power produced. Generally speaking, the higher the Maf V, the higher the road dyno HP. However, after switiching over to E85, I have only seen a very slight increase in Maf V, although the road dyno is showing 30+ HP. Does that make sense? I expected a much bigger jump in the amount of air I am bringing in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 As explained on the E85 forum: You are getting more power because ethanol has a lower oxygen demand than gasoline when it is burned. In other words you can burn more ethanol with a given amount of intake air. That relationship between intake air and power produced is only linear when comparing similar fuels with similar oxygen requirements, if you compare a straight hydrocarbon fuel with an oxygenated fuel, the relationship is no longer the same. Ethanol is "partially oxidized" since it contains oxygen in its chemical makeup. That means you can burn more of it with the same amount of air than you could gasoline. The increased amount of fuel burned releases more energy on the same amount of intake air flow, which is what ultimately limits power on most piston spark ignition engines. In a turbocharged application the higher exhaust volume produced by E85 and its ethanol content, will also increase turbo spool a little, and also changes the pressure profile in the cylinder so that cylinder pressure does not fall as rapidly as the piston descends on the power stroke, producing slightly higher average pressures. All those slight changes add up to more power with essentially the same amount of intake air. Ethanol specific energy at stoichiometric fuel air mixtures is actually higher than gasoline allowing a higher release of energy per lb of air burned than gasoline. Typical gasoline Thermal energy 19,000 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 12.5:1 Typical E85 Thermal energy 13,475 BTU/lb max power fuel air mixture 6.975:1 Typical ethanol Thermal energy 12,500 BTU/lb 6.429:1 If you are consuming 100 lbs of air, lets see how much fuel energy you release for each of these fuels using gasoline as the base 100% reference. 100/12.5 = 8 lbs of gasoline @ 19,000 BTU/lb = 152,000 BTU = 100% 100/6.975 = 14.337 lbs of E85 @ 13,475 BTU/lb = 193,189.9 BTU = 127% more heat energy 100/6.429 = 15.555 lbs of Ethanol @ 12,500 BTU/lb = 194431.5 BTU = 128.9% more heat energy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 ^^^ Gotta admit, I never realized that, Spec B. Thanks for bringing it up and answering your own question. And since the source you quoted was my buddy hotrod, I know the info is correct. So for E85, one needs 30% bigger injectors but could get away with a much smaller intake (20% or more smaller?) So for me, running the smallish Cobb SF intake maxing out at around 4.54-4.60 volts, if I somehow made the exact same amount of power but switched to 91oct, I'd need to upgrade my intake. Interesting. Great info. My '05 LGT My '07 Supercharged Shelby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 In addition to the above, E85 also lets you run more ignition advance, without detonation (aka higher octane rating). That's why people call it cheap race gas - the most useful thing about race gas is the increased octane rating. That octane rating increase allows the combustion to be timed for a crank angle that gives more torque for the same bang. Switching to E85 and keeping the same turbo, you can run a little more boost due to the increased octane rating, and that's where the increased MAFv comes from. But more of the power increase comes from increased energy and better spark timing. That's pretty interesting about E85 releasing more energy for the same amount of air. Air intake is generally the biggest limiting factor for IC engines. It's pretty easy to spray more fuel, but that just makes you run rich.... unless you switch to another kind of fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted April 23, 2011 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 E85 is pretty good stuff. The 30 HP I netted was a result of the fuel and a little more timing (2 degrees up top), I have not bumped up boost at all yet. I still need to install the larger injectors and finish breaking in the clutch. One new issue that popped up is an enormous amount of knock (or perceived knock) at very low load (less than 1.0) at 2400-2700 RPM. The knock sum just increments non stop when I am within that range. Anything above or below that range is knock free as are WOT runs. Right now I am just ignoring it (I raised the flkc listening ranges), but I am little concerned...it seems to have popped up right after the switch to E85 (before the clutch upgrade). I checked for loose stuff in the engine bay and i cant find anything. No smoke, no loss of fluids and car is running very strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 I suspect I am doing something very wrong. Bought new DW850s a few months ago from a vendor here. The box said 850cc but they happened to come without a flow sheet. So I installed them this weekend, adjusted the inj scaler to 540 (to give me a little more headroom since I did not have the flow sheet), left the stock latency settings and started tweaking the maf. I am still missing (running lean) my high end afr target (11.1) and I am already running 98% IDC? In the winter there is no way they could keep up.. Any advice would be great. Do I have bad injectors? Log attached: romraiderlog_20110703_225612.csv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't understand how your IDC's can be so high. I run big 850's (PE, flow more than DW's) and have never seen IDC's anywhere near 90%. Usually low-mid 80's. As for your high end AFR's, I'd run 0.81-0.82 up to 6000rpms and then taper to 0.79 near redline. 11.1 (0.755 lambda) is pretty rich for E85 so I think ~12.1 sounds a lot better. I like having my WB02 report in lambda instead of converting to gas AFR's since I don't run gas. I'd change that if you can and just think in terms of lambda. Then you need to change your RR defs to lambda too so your table is set up in lambda instead of gas AFR. Anyhow, for the main question about the IDC's... I dunno. ;( My '05 LGT My '07 Supercharged Shelby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th3Franz Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I suspect I am doing something very wrong. Bought new DW850s a few months ago from a vendor here. The box said 850cc but they happened to come without a flow sheet. So I installed them this weekend, adjusted the inj scaler to 540 (to give me a little more headroom since I did not have the flow sheet), left the stock latency settings and started tweaking the maf. I am still missing (running lean) my high end afr target (11.1) and I am already running 98% IDC? In the winter there is no way they could keep up.. Any advice would be great. Do I have bad injectors? Log attached: [ATTACH]102155[/ATTACH] are the stock latency settings pretty close to what they should be? E85 maxes out fuel systems very easily. You're at 95% IDC at 4800 RPM. You're also running 12.3-12.4 AFR at peak boost, which is leaner than I'd recommend for E85. Sounds like there's no way around it. You need bigger injectors. -Franz The end of a Legacy http://www.youtube.com/th3franz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 latency setting seem to work ok. What is confusing me is that 850s should be more than enough to keep up with my VF43 on E85...something else is wrong. Just not sure what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 latency setting seem to work ok. What is confusing me is that 850s should be more than enough to keep up with my VF43 on E85...something else is wrong. Just not sure what. Fuel pressure is not keeping up. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted July 6, 2011 Author Share Posted July 6, 2011 Any easy way to tell if the issue is fuel pressure or faulty injectors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Th3Franz Posted July 6, 2011 Share Posted July 6, 2011 fuel pressure gauge inside the car (electric of course) -Franz The end of a Legacy http://www.youtube.com/th3franz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 Bought a new pump..I will swap out and see if i get the same results. I am starting to wonder if the injectors are really 850s... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Fuel pressure is not keeping up. I would say that LittleblueGT has nailed it..... If you all remember when my car was tuned on E85 at Cobb plano with the AVO380 I had the same exact problem. I believe it was fuel pressure, so I changed the FPR but never had it rechecked. The reason I think it was FP was because 2 stage 2 STI's tuned on the same dyno after me on E85 with 850's and they were only at 80% DC, at the same PSI as me. Lots of people have tuned 850's, E85 and not been near 100% DC. To me it would be FP either caused by the FPR or something with the pump (o'ring etc) in the tank.... Im no tuner like Little blue but that would be my guess. My motor is going in at Cobb Plano in a few weeks, and at their recommend I am switching to ID1000's and parallel fuel lines. When he does the tune I will let everyone know what I find out. I know the 1000's will be better but we should be able to check and see what is going on if the DC is still high... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 You will be glad you went with the CM clutch spec b.... I did the ACT, Street disc and WRX flywheel and the deceleration noise was atrocious in my 5 speed. I am putting a 08 STI 6 speed in my car in a month or so when my car gets back from Cobb. Already have the parts. I purchased the CM FX300 and stock STI 6 speed flywheel. I have driven a car like this and it is quiet as stock, super easy pedal, and holds really good. Dang ACT clutch rattles like crazy on decal..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted July 8, 2011 Share Posted July 8, 2011 Any easy way to tell if the issue is fuel pressure or faulty injectors? Just go to sears or somewhere and get a fuel pressure tester. Not expensive and little blue has a diagram he posted in my thread on where to hook it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted July 8, 2011 Author Share Posted July 8, 2011 Love the fx300 with wrx flywheel, it is as quite as stock and pedal pressure is actually lighter than stock and easy to modulate. Holds great too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 good to hear, now I just need my ride back so I can get the 6 speed in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spec B Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 Fuel pressure is not keeping up. You were right. Just got back from vacation and swapped out the AVO pump (and housing) for a used walboro pump (and housing) I purchased from another member - Although a very easy swap, it's not a fun job when it is 100+ degrees out. Between the gas smell and heat I almost passed out. Logs performed immediately after the swap show AFRs down into the 9's in the high end....much better than the 12's I was hitting before the pump swap. Still have to find time to tune the injectors, but it looks like the problem is solved - I now have plenty of headroom with the 850s. I have not had a chance to crack open up the housing and see what the issue is with the AVO. It might be an o ring problem, or it might be the pump itself....details to follow. Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby2.5 Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Yea let us/me know what you find with the AVO. My car was doing the exact same thing, and I changed the FP regulator but not sure it fixed it as I never checked the fuel pressure afterwards . Im curious to see if your AVO has problems or its just an O ring or something. Waiting for your inspection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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