Promising Sti Indicator

[wunderkind]

YB, don't be bitter. Some people get all antsy about the 06 LGT. Perhaps trying to justify their 05 LGTs. It's ok. At least you get to enjoy the 05 LGT for a year. I've provided some tidbits way back when about the STi Legacy in 2004..... and welcome to the legacy forum.

[agctr]

From anything and everything posted here, an Forester STi was to test the water only in Japan and other countries like Europe/UK and NZ and MAYBE (lukewarm) Australia. I dont think we will see a STi GT anytime soon especially in the US as noted for a few, the yanks wont pay big dollars for vehicles that are made in Japan as the cult following is not there YET but its coming.

Adam.

 

PS It a STi GT Liberty was on offer, well I would put my deposit down. People wanting this vehicle have to support it from day one and thats putting a deposit down ASAP IF IT HAPPENS.

[D-2.5-GT]

Its not that speculation is bad, or even trying to relay that info back to us. However, its just frustrating when no one can provide any sort of proof as to their claims, not to mention the board seems overloaded with these posts lately. I am just trying to point out that no one really knows what the new models will feature.

 

If the models do end up playing out like this, wonderful. Personally it makes no difference to me what so ever. I have my 05 and I'm happy. I don't plan on trading up and most likely any part changes can be retro-fitted if so desired.

[gt_ltd]

wow adam where have you been?

[YBNormal07]

I gotcha. I too get frustrated with inuendo and speculation, but back in the day when the STi was still to be introduced, the only solid bit of information we ever got was from a regional rep. I trust the source, and the "upgrades" seem mundane enough to believe. Now the part about the bast model going away seems very speculative, and I tried to follow it up by seeing if the sales are tilted way over towards the GT end, but Subaru doesn't seemt to release model line specific sales info...it's all lumped into a "legacy" category. However, based on the population on this forum, it seems that the GT is dominant, which would provide validaty to the statement. Who knows for sure right?

 

anyway..no bitternes...friends are always good to have in the scoobie community!

[agctr]

Streching, under a rock somewhere lol, doing development on the new STi 3.0Spec-C TT..... yeah right LOL.

 

Been busy mate with this and that and havent had the opportunity of getting in here but Im back now. Thanks for the welcome though GT.....

 

Still re the vehicle, unsure if it will happen, but never say never. I tried to put a deposit on this vehicle well over 12 months ago so Im keen for it to arrive anytime SOON.

 

 

wow adam where have you been?

[akm3]

I gotcha. I too get frustrated with inuendo and speculation, but back in the day when the STi was still to be introduced, the only solid bit of information we ever got was from a regional rep. I trust the source, and the "upgrades" seem mundane enough to believe. Now the part about the bast model going away seems very speculative, and I tried to follow it up by seeing if the sales are tilted way over towards the GT end, but Subaru doesn't seemt to release model line specific sales info...it's all lumped into a "legacy" category. However, based on the population on this forum, it seems that the GT is dominant, which would provide validaty to the statement. Who knows for sure right?

 

anyway..no bitternes...friends are always good to have in the scoobie community!

 

 

Although I've never done a statistical analysis, I think it would be HIGHLY improbable that the Legacygt.com population is a representative sample of the Legacy owner population.

 

Most people who buy 2.5i's don't go on the forums to post about them.

 

I'm not disagreeing with your "inside info", but I cannot refute or prove personally.

 

-Allen

[MtnSub]

The theme of this thread is "Promising Indicator".

I do not expect any major update of Legacy in NorAm until 07 or 08.

It is a fact that Suby has a tested set of bits on a Sti Forester for Japan.

I think the bits on the Forester (e.g. 6MT, more torque, stiffer susspension, Brembo brakes, cool colors and subtle styling) would cause me to trade in my LegGT wagon for a new LegSti wagon.

Is a LegSti wagon in Suby's business plan for NorAm? I don't know.

I think the Forester Sti indicates that Suby is testing the package and knows how to put together all the right stuff.

I am not speculating or talking inside info, just saying the Forester package looks good to me and Suby knows what I am looking for.

[leehamster]

I'm hoping that Subie will feel like it needs to respond to the Mazaspeed 6, maybe even to the new Bimmer 3 series and A4. A little something to make the Leg GT a bit slicker and tighter would be appropriate. Personally I'm going to give MS6 a test drive when it comes out. Seems sharper than the Leg GT.

[SC GT]

Streching, under a rock somewhere lol, doing development on the new STi 3.0Spec-C TT..... yeah right LOL.

 

Been busy mate with this and that and havent had the opportunity of getting in here but Im back now. Thanks for the welcome though GT.....

 

Still re the vehicle, unsure if it will happen, but never say never. I tried to put a deposit on this vehicle well over 12 months ago so Im keen for it to arrive anytime SOON.

I just figured you bought an M3 and decided to blow off us ricers.

[agctr]

I just figured you bought an M3 and decided to blow off us ricers.

 

LOL, the M Search continues my friend, very painful I have to say to Seth's disgust... but thats another story. Things are going well here mate, waiting/holding for this damn STi Spec to appear, arrive, evolve but no news yet.

 

Once I get the M, you and the entire board will be the first to know.

All the best.

Adam.

[D-2.5-GT]

I'm hoping that Subie will feel like it needs to respond to the Mazaspeed 6, maybe even to the new Bimmer 3 series and A4. A little something to make the Leg GT a bit slicker and tighter would be appropriate. Personally I'm going to give MS6 a test drive when it comes out. Seems sharper than the Leg GT.

 

Respond in what way?

 

The LGT was the first out of the gate. If anything, i would say that Mazda is trying to break into the market and follow in Subaru's path.

 

I do agree that if Subaru wants to compete with the "big boys", then they need to start offering more gadgets and gizmos. However, personally i wouldn't have gotten them, so its no difference to me.

 

Otherwise, i would say that the LGT is right on par with those mentioned.

 

MS6 looks interesting, but after hearing that its pushed back, my feelings are that Mazda is only hurting themselves. IMO, the biggest contributing factor is that it will be released in the fall now, with dedicated 18" SUMMER tires. This is not going to go over well for someone thinking it will be good in the snow, when they have to turn around, buy brand new 18" snow / all season tires. Expect them to be expensive and the choices to be slim.

[TSiWRX]

For this topic, I'm inclined to agree with my same-name brother from WA, above:

 

Although I've never done a statistical analysis, I think it would be HIGHLY improbable that the Legacygt.com population is a representative sample of the Legacy owner population.

 

Most people who buy 2.5i's don't go on the forums to post about them.

 

I do remain hopeful that us - the enthusiasts - will not be passed over and will eventually be registered as a serious group whose numbers, however small, can still justify a very limited and specialized run of cars from Scooby.....

 

But honestly, how many of you who live outside of major "car-crazy" towns have noticed that their local dealers' STis (or their local Mitsu dealerss Evos) are sitting in showrooms for months and months on end, getting price-drop after price-drop?

 

Enthusiasts are a -very- small crowd. How many WRX owners or fellow LGT owners have you tried waving to on the road, and gotten a knowing nod or friendly wave back?

 

I remain hopeful, though.

 

-A

[MtnSub]

Regarding Sti and Evos sitting in showrooms for months, how many young guns can afford a Sti or EVO? These cars serve their purpose selling lesser expensive cars in their respective lines to young guys that tart up the cheaper versions. The Sti/Evo have provided major press exposure and performance reputation for both companies. All this is part of their marketing plan and business plan justification.

 

I bet that a refined LegGT in Sti battle dress would have a broader market of older people with more money to sell to. Yes it would still be a niche market, but that is the story of Subaru and the M3/S4 are niche, low volume markets. Many more people could afford a $35kUSD LegSti than a M3 or S4 or VolvoR.

 

Please Suby, don't put a load of junk on the car and do not do what BMW did to the 3 series. Don't turn it into a Cadilac. I love the simple LegGT dash controls that do everything a driver needs.

 

 

Take the LegGT and upgrade the interior materials and finish, add a NAV "option" and a killer audio "option".

[Guest JessterCPA]

You really never know what the market will bear. Look at the VW Passat. Nice car. With the V6 & 4Motion AWD it hit about $32k, and was a decent deal. Then they threw the W8 in it, and priced it right about $40k IIRC. The market didnt bite, even though no other car of its size could offer the features anywhere near that price. It was a little embarassing for VW, and they stopped W8 production alltogether. I would hate to see a similar thing happen to Subaru if they go too high on the ladder with the LGT. The general public just may not be ready for it yet.

 

Jesse

[IwannaSportSedan]

On the other hand, sometimes lightning strikes, and a car that didn't seem like it would go very far, ended up being a bit of a cult classic.

 

About the Regional Rep story... he said the base would be discontinued, and only the GT would remain. Perhaps a slight slip of the tongue difference, but perhaps the mananger was talking about the GT Base being discontinued, and the GT limited carrying on as the only GT. This has been confirmed by several sources.

 

Perhaps the B2 could be the name for the "Spec B" run that has been rumored, and also somewhat substantiated.

 

I don't know about an STi, but I would like to think that Subaru would take a risk, and build another Halo car in the Legacy line, like the STi is in the Impreza line. I can make business cases for it all day long, but it ends up being speculation, and I have done so at length already. I sincerely hope they do it, but I won't be too suprised if it doesn't happen, or isn't imported.

 

BTW, about americans not wanting to buy big dollar japanese cars... I have to laugh. Lexus, Infinity, Acura, and various SUVs and such are all selling ranges to compete with the Germans in these areas. Americans will buy what they want, always have, and always will. As European and Domestic build quality declines, the Japanese stand to gain even more marketshare.

 

I happen to think there is a market for a performance sedan/wagon pair with similar but slightly more modest performance, and a ~35k pricetag, to undercut the S4 and M3. Hard-roof sports cars under 50k are nearly nil. (350z, Corvette, and upcoming Porsche Cayman are about it, and two of those are close to the limit.) and all the performance cars are going to 4 seat coupes, but mostly to performance sedans, as practicality wins out over sheer weight reduction.

 

With Infiniti, Acura, Lexus, and Cadillac, as well as Audi/VW and BMW, all going with AWD sport-lux sedans up into and beyond the 50k price range, i would think Subaru could do a sport sedan/wagon with an STi badge, a good bit more power than the GT, 6MT offered, and AWD standard, with a few less bells and whistles, for less cash, and still get a good market position as a value leader.

[gt_ltd]

I just figured you bought an M3 and decided to blow off us ricers.

 

that's exactly what i was thinking earlier... "what if adam gets a ///M?"

[Guest JessterCPA]

On the other hand, sometimes lightning strikes, and a car that didn't seem like it would go very far, ended up being a bit of a cult classic.

 

........

 

BTW, about americans not wanting to buy big dollar japanese cars... I have to laugh. Lexus, Infinity, Acura, and various SUVs and such are all selling ranges to compete with the Germans in these areas. Americans will buy what they want, always have, and always will. As European and Domestic build quality declines, the Japanese stand to gain even more marketshare.

 

You make a very good point about cult cars. Galant VR4 is a notable example.

 

The interesting this is that the Japanese manufacturers had to create a new brand that Americans would accept paying higher prices for. In the beginning, there was no way your typical Lincoln/Caddy owner was going to plunk down $35k-$40k on a Honda or Toyota. But an Acura or Lexus. Of course. Interesting marketing & unbelievable knowledge of your target market. Mitsubishi did not jump on this, and launched the Diamante, which really didn't do too well. Mazda did the same with the Millenia. Neither of these can be considered a success when compared with an Es300 or a TL. Infinity took a long time to catch on.

 

 

 

Jesse

[TSiWRX]

IwannaSportSedan and JessterCPA -

 

Very true and indeed very interesting per: cult cars. However, I would much rather that our LGTs did not go that route, and instead gain more acceptance as well as garner more corporate favor so that this ride isn't discontinued, but instead evolved properly.

 

Having owned DSMs and still considering myself a DSMer at-heart, the relatively short lifespans of these cult hits strike close to a very tender spot.

 

Also, while I do agree that the general American car-shopper will pony up the bucks for higher-priced Japanese imports, there remains the rather sobering fact that Subaru - outside of the enthusiast and tuner crowd - still carries with it the "stigma" of being a practical grocery-getter instead of a true performance automobile. Certainly, this viewpoint is changing, but it's one that's barely taking hold in the 30-something market, and will, with each passing decade and generation that's older, is still very much an entrenched outlook.

 

It took the public a while to warm up to paying the big bucks for a Lexus, Acura, and Infinity, and these were -specifically- marketed as luxury automobiles. While I have no doubt that the current quality and overall aesthetic direction that Subaru is taking will win over more and more converts, the brand-image still needs to change, and that's going to take some time.

 

I do remain hopeful that the current LGT and the so far "rumored" Spec-B is a harbinger bigger and better things yet to come, particularly as my lease will be up in 3-4 years, but as an enthusiast who's been disappointed one time too many, I'm not exactly holding my breath, either.

 

 

-----

 

MtnSub -

 

I'm not sure I agree with your take on the STis and Evos. In my local area, at least, the vast majority of Evos and STis belong to a 25+ crowd. Hardly old but definitely not the daddy-so-rich high-school The Fast and the Furious subset, either. Instead, from the people I've spoken to regarding them, they've simply taken much longer to get perspective buyers, simply because of their unique nature.

 

Perhaps it's just that we're looking at these two cars from different viewpoints - I'm simply looking at their showroom-stuck status as being an example of cars that have burrowed themselves too far in to a niche.

 

Would a wisely marketed, wisely upgraded LGT appeal to a wider base of customers - one with more money - but the niche quality of this market still worries me in a long-term picture.

 

-A

[Jaxx]

subaur/FHI has changed their marketing stragidy .. used to be that japan got every thing first then the rest of the world then the US/canada we saw the bug eye wrx a good 6 months befor the NAmerican introduction

the b9 was the change

 

that said the legacy is the B4 not he B2 iirc the B2 is a car smaller than the wrx there was a good thread on this on nabisco

 

i can't believe that subaru would drop the 2.5 na .. they sell too many and the emmissions are too clean

but then again they are trying to make a radical change in thier markedt "upscale"

 

dealer rumors are totaly worthless

[MtnSub]

Great points about Americans being willing to pay big bucks for Japanese cars that generate bragging rights. Lexus is the best example.

 

I also agree that a LegSTi would be a mircro niche, halo car, but I do not agree that it would attemp to or hve the challenge to develop a Subaru catagory like Lexus or Acura. Lexus and Acura are product lines with "high concept" reputation and image associated with them and I agree that takes decades to develop.

 

A LegSti would not be an attempt to establish a new BRAND, but a halo car that extends, enhances Subuaru's performance, engineering, its what's inside that counts image. Subaru Outback has achieved the bullet proof, affordable, safe, grocery hauler status for tree huggers, cold country soccer moms and grandpa (the Tribeca extends this segment). The rebirth of Legacy as GT/250 hp and Sti Impreza "indicate" that Subaru wants to expand their image and market share for "value" performance, one price step below BMW. If the LegGT sales numbers look good, Subaru will want to refresh the Legacy line year three of its life-cycle. A Leg/Sti from the existing parts bin is the most cost effective way for Subaru to offer something new and press worthy in 07 or 08 and maintain "competitive positioning".

 

Yes, the grocery hauler models will continue to pay the bills, but the Sti's will generate market attention and keep Subaru's name in the press, while Subaru slowly expands/enhances its market range and BRAND image.

[TSiWRX]

MtnSub,

 

Very interesting viewpoint! I now see what you're saying more clearly than before. Thanks for refining.

 

One other reason I love this Forum - even if I don't totally agree, it's -always- eye-opening.

 

Well said, brother.

 

Let us hope that my pessimistic outlook will not turn out to be the case, and that your brighter view will take the day. And no, I'm not being sarcastic - I truly hope that this will be the case.

 

Certainly, I look forward to an even more exciting version of the LGT in the coming years, especially when I'll be at a point where, hopefully, I'll have some more spare change in my pocket.

 

-A

[IwannaSportSedan]

Couldn't have said it better, MtnSub.

Legacy STi: Not a car trying to over-reach it's segment, but rather a halo car trying to push it's perceived envelope, and generate some talk, like it's WRX STi cousin.

 

I agree with TSI+WRX, and I wouldn't want the mainstream Legacy GT to go too niche. It should be the bread and butter of the Legacy model line (Excluding Ouback as another related model line, albeit same chassis.)

 

The STi badge should take care of that niche issue for the Legacy. the WRX STi and Lancer Evo VIII are the image leaders, but they certainly aren't the unit sales leaders. The WRX and Lancer models are. The GT legacy should be the bread and butter, and the 2.5i the "extra value menu" option.

 

The Legacy STi would be the image holder. Something for the Automotive press, and enthusiast owners to flog, and proclaim as the winner versus the G35x, Volvo S40 T5, A4 Quattro, etc, and as the successor to the value sport sedans that the M3 and S4 were half a decade ago, but have since left behind.

More good press for subaru, just as others have said here, as a value performance manufacturer (which we already know them to be.)

 

I also agree with being dissappointed a few too many times, and won't be surprised if this doesn't materialize.

[OCDetails]

most Americans will buy whatever you can sell to them. Thus, there exists Acura.

 

I think Infinity and Lexus are better examples of this than Acura. At least Acuras aren't just rebadged Hondas.

[PGT]

At least Acuras aren't just rebadged Hondas.

 

 

Lol......sorry, you are DEAD wrong on that:

 

Honda Integra = Acura RSX

Honda NSX = Acura NSX

Euro Accord = Acura TSX

Honda Legend = Acura RL

Honda Civic = Acura EL