francoisgt Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Hello All, Now that my wait for a GT Limited is almost over (my specific specs car will be arrive in 2 weeks) I went to my dealer to get a taste of their non limited GT. My current car is a 2001 BMW 325 XI with the Sport group and modified suspension. I love my bimmer for the exception of the somewhat limited power the 2.5 delivers. It is a timeless design, it handles like nothing else mainly due to my upgraded suspension but also the body rigidity. I have to say that I was looking forward to my first drive of the GT, and was left with an aftertaste that was not exactly positive. I have been driving BMWs for the past 5 years and also have motorcycle and car racing experience, so my comments are based on my personal experiences. First, the test drive was of a Red GT 5MT. Although I would not buy Red, it does look much better than I though. As I am used to the BMW sports seats, I find that I did not have enough adjustments with the GT seats (bottom extension and angle), I also found that the seat was not long enough to my taste (BMW sport have an extensible seat length). The interior is very clean, I would even venture to say up to part with the BMW. The gauges are a very nice touch. Getting of the line was uneventful, standard pull. I was expecting more grunt and power down low, but again, I'm coming from an inline 6. Up the revs, shift in second and third without pushing, I was impress with the smoothness of the engine, but disappointed by the transmission, I believe it is normal for a Subaru transmission to be harder to slide in, a bit clucky and somewhat harsh, the bimmer offers a buttery but direct transmission. My area has great open roads as well as twisty and bumpy road, everything to test the complyhence of a car. I first hit the highway and floored the GT to see what this turbo engine could do. Not bad at all, but I was hoping for more, this car does not feel like a 250hp car, the car had 250km on it and was not broken in. I'm starting to wonder if my 325 actually develop more than the listed 185hp. Nice smooth ride, noise level is low, road feel is good (less nervous than the bimmer which follows every single imperfections in the road). Get off of the highway and on to my "personal" series of technical twisties. I turn to my demo guy and ask him if he has a problems with pushing the car a bit, he said shown me what this car can do. First comment, the Bridgestone RE92 are a joke, first thing to be changed. Second, I was expecting less body roll than this, again it is all about perspective, my bimmer will not roll at all, its stays flat in corners, and because it is as a permanent 38%- 62% power split front - rear, the front pull but it drive like a rear wheel drive. Through the twisties, power was manageable, steering feedback was positive, break power was up to part with my driving style, direct, controllable and without any ABS hints. I decided to do a final test before going back to the dealer, the 90 degree curve to get on the highway, I'm used to throttle steering my way through this. I positioned the GT and started to apply increasing power and steering direction, to properly transfer and stabilize the weight of the car, this test usually shows me the rigidity and body roll. Unfortunately this was the last if my tests, I was not impressed. Another small comment, on my way back, the sun was glaring on the climate control and I could not read the display, must have been do to specific angle of the sun and car. All in all, the GT is a great car, I may just be a bit more demanding than a typical driver. In Summary; - The tires got to go - On the power front, I would assume, as people on this board indicate, that the engine gets better with age after 10,000km - The suspension can be fixed with a good set of coilovers - As for everything else, so minor, they are easily forgotten My plan at the moment will be to wait for the GT Limited in silver I ordered. See how the leather feels and the sunroof But I have to say to I may stay with my bimmer. Your comments are welcome, as you can see, I am still not decided here, hard decision, and split 50/50 Thanks for reading Francois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRXTom Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 1. I agree with you on the tires. Now that I am through the break-in period I have been pushing the car harder and the RE92s do give up early. I have another set of wheels & tires that I will be putting on this weekend for comparison. 2. The GT suspension is very good but not up to the cornering ability of a good aftermarket setup. My STi suspension allowed me to attack corners very aggressively but predictably. Of course, there are NVH tradeoffs. Some days I would curse the suspension because I just wanted to relax. Tom *edit* My opinion on #2 may change depending on the results of better tires as per #1. Should be interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dskelto Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 If you don't mind me asking...How much did your BMW run you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Zevil Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 You obviously won't be happy, I would stay with the beemer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady_bunch Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 I would point out that the 325 is a "low end" model of a luxury car company and the GT is a "high end luxury" model of a mid-range car company. Although the two may overlap somewhat in features, price, and function, they are still two very different vehicles given the companies that developed each of them. I say that without any malice towards any car, company, or person in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatCQB Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Maybe you could wait a little bit and research how much to bring the GT upto your liking and then decide. I'm sure a stock GT would be very different compared to even a lightly modified 325xi. But like you said, making a few changes down the road might solve most of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC GT Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Pretty tough for any sedan or station wagon to compare handling-wise against a BMW with a sport AND modified suspension, especially if it's riding on RE-92s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 [quote name='Dr. Zevil']You obviously won't be happy, I would stay with the beemer.[/quote] You mean bimmer right? Beemers are BMW motorcycles. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outahere Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Sounds like you should be shopping for a WRX STI, and not a Legacy GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7stars Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 I think you would be much happier with a 325i. The RE92's can actually be good for seeing how neutral the handling is...if all 4 tires slide at once. Bridgestone seems to have the absolute worst OEM tires. I know the Accord boys aren't happy at all with their Turanza's. There is massive drivetrain loss in AWD cars. I'm guessing the GT will dyno 190 at the wheels at the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mines Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 no, 190 is a little to drastic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnSub Posted June 18, 2004 Share Posted June 18, 2004 Hey Francoisgt, like you I had a 325I with sport pack and aftermarket variable rate eibachs. Unlike you, I do not have advanced(race) driving skills. My son currently has a 2002 BMW 325xi Wagon, which I drove the day after my Leg GT/Ltd test drive. The BMW inline six just feels sooo good. True, the BMW 3 series was originally engineered a decade ago. My test drive was very short and I was impressed with how smooth and quick the LegGT picked up. Did not get much suspension test. Like you, I think the BMW inline six feels much stronger than its rated 179 ft lbs and I loved the road feel, even though aftermarket kit delivered occasional bump steer. If I am not interested in a new experience and a different feel, I should by the BMW before it gets Bangled. Question is, money aside, will a broken in Leg GT offer a total package that I will enjoy as much as my BMW? I spend a lot of time above 6,000 ft in mountains and turbo will be good for that. The BMW cargo area is much smaller or at least hard point constricted than Leg GT. Leg GT brakes are bigger and car is lighter. I will take Gtguy”s advice to let situation mature before considering suspension upgrade and short shifter. I am not at all concerned about brand name. I think the Leg GT/Ltd is a very good looking with a very comfortable and stylish interior. The little inline six in BMW feels and handles so good, but I am ready for a new adventure and Leg GT serves up plenty of new potential to master. Not sure if this dilemma compliments BMW 3 series or Subaru Leg GT more. Great dilemma to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7stars Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Yup, the boost will definately help in high altitude, as you can either accept the loss of power due to high altitude (down to about 200hp), or up the boost to make up for it, although this creates a lot of heat . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexjapan Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 An apples and oranges comparison - the BMW was riding on a non-stock suspension vs. a very stock and middle of the road setup. Plus the AWD difference between the systems is fairly large. The stock tyres will make a huge difference in a drivers impressions of a car, plus will affect the handling quite a bit. Depending on the tyres on a car, the feeling can switch from one of understeer to one of oversteer - the car will not behave the same just with less or more traction. As for power, because of the newer design and quite a bit of vibration and noise damping measures, it can sound and feel slower than another car, when in fact that the reality is quite different. Because the motor is less peaky than the WRX, it will feel slower because there is not as big of a off boost/on boost power surge. It is when you are next to another benchmark car such as, say, an M3 and watching it fade off that you start getting a feel for the speed. The standard spring setup on the USDM GT is a bit soft - I'd say its possibly running at half the spring rating as the JDM GT, which is even less than the Spec B. There would likely be some good business sending over JDM GT springs, perfectly setup for very sporty driving along with a stock ride height. Cheers, Paul Hansen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgeracer Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 how about some STI pink springs.? "Gimme mines Balboa...Gimme mines".....Clubber Lang - Mr. T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatCQB Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 If the JDM springs can be had for a better price than other aftermarkets, I think you might have something there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerdave Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I think the true advantage of the JDM springs are the fact that Subie factory engineers have them optimized and dialed in to the GT already... you know they got the rates right, front and rear. Total plug and play. I'd be interested in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPTChaplin Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 How difficult would it be to swap out the JDM springs for the GT? Is there a difference between a wagon or a sedan for the springs you would want to use? J.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnSub Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Apples and oranges yes, but the BMW wagon and the new Legacy GT/Ltd are the only all wheel drive, manual trans mid-size luxo-sport wagons I know of. They become obvious competitors, if the BMW price is an option. After seeing the Leg in person and driving it, I think the Leg GT is a very viable competitor to the BMW 325xi. Someone please tell me what I am missing if you see these cars in completely different performance/quality classes. Stock, the Leg GT does 0-60 in about 1.5 seconds faster than the BMW 325xi. Not a small point, since most of your off track driving fun is in that speed range. The Leg GT I tested was very quiet and smooth, but did pick up a nice note at boost and I am sure the boost will be a fun tool/toy once familiar with it. I am sure some 17/225/45 Conti Max Contact tires would significantly improve Leg GT driving impressions. Again, I am following gtguys advice and letting situation mature before deciding on suspension mods. I definitely do not want to reduce ride height/ground clearance on Leg GT. I want a real road car that has some passion in its set up, not a track toy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady_bunch Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 [quote name='CombatCQB']If the JDM springs can be had for a better price than other aftermarkets, I think you might have something there.[/quote] Note to self... add JDM springs to my wishlist for mods. Thanks, Paul, for the heads up on that! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Mtnsub, I think the Apples to Oranges comparison is between a BMW that already had a decent suspension to it being optomized with upgraded suspension components and probably better tires as well to a stock GT with what we like to call the worst tires on the face of the planet. The suspension might be great on the new GT, but if those tires are a big crutch, it will do all sorts of things to inhibit performance and make it a sub-performer. I'm rather confidant in the new car and plan to have new tires mounted before winter sets in up here. Baptism by fire, um, I mean AutoX and chew them up! I hope we have some skidpads on the last courses of the summer. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentlya4 Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 I am currently in an audi A4 (mildly modified...springs/shocks/etc and chip/exhaust) and I'm looking at the Leg GT at the moment because (1) it would simply cost me way too much money to make the A4 as fast as I want (big turbo setups for A4's run in the $4,000 range) and (2) the thing requires waay too much money in maintenance. To add to this discussion, It's my opinion based on research only that the Leg, with a good set of springs/shocks or coilovers and larger f/r anti-roll bars should equal or better the handling of any of the small German sedans in stock trim. It'd probably be a bit stiff for many people's tastes, but I personally would happily sacrifice some ride comfort for serious handling prowess (as I did with my A4). On that note, does anyone know if (1) tein is going to come out with coilovers for this car and (2) whether they will be EDFC-compatable? I'd love to have cockpit-adjustable damping in a car like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7stars Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 Well, the JDM springs are also engineered for Japanese roads, which are just a notch below Germany's roads. The US is pretty much at the bottom of the paved road countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGT Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 [quote name='7stars']Well, the JDM springs are also engineered for Japanese roads, which are just a notch below Germany's roads. The US is pretty much at the bottom of the paved road countries.[/quote] If you think US roads are not so nice, maybe you should take a drive up north in Canada, especialy in Québec. Are roads are HORRIBLES! A friend of mine sells his STI mainly for this reason (tired of being shaked...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CombatCQB Posted June 19, 2004 Share Posted June 19, 2004 IIRC, the Tein Flex system is already available for the JDM Legacy. But no word on when they'll get here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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