Effect of 2010 LGT header vs "regular" header/UP on turbo

[mwiener2]

You'll get pics when I build it. I think I'm gonna have some time tomorrow to work on it.

[ClimberDHexMods]

You'll get pics when I build it. I think I'm gonna have some time tomorrow to work on it.

 

Looking forward to see what you produce.

[mwiener2]

me too

[mwiener2]

Passenger side header is done and the v-band for the turbo is in place.

 

The unmolested, stock oil pan fits!!!

 

I may have to make a small dent in it to give the driver side header a little clearence.. but if I ever remake this kit, I can do it without modifying the stock oil pan.

 

 

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/IMG_2774.jpg

 

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/IMG_2773.jpg

[ClimberDHexMods]

Nice. I also found the stock oil pan can stay even in the tightest of locations (my proposed location anyways) but the heat shield behind the radiator might have to be cut and remade closer to the radiator. Really depends on the size of the turbo and it's orientation. We also have very different ideas for header design...

[socalsleeper]

ClimberD, No matter how integent you post are i look at your avatar and all i see is a pink terror. After reading this whole thread it has become very interesting fast. Now call ne crazy (disclaimer I haven't looked under a 2010 yet) but in the name of extra room I would suggest

A) and oil cooler and oil sump above the trans to keep volume up.

B) replacing the radiator from a long and skiny (verticaly speaking) to a shorter and deeper one that is about 1/2 the size top to bottom, and removing the fans from the rear (pull) style to front ( push) style fans.

I mean if you guys are talking about replacing crossmembers/subframes and manifolds, fabbing oil pans what is a after market fan and radiator??? Just a thought..

Now letting the flaming begin...

[ClimberDHexMods]

ClimberD, No matter how integent you post are i look at your avatar and all i see is a pink terror. After reading this whole thread it has become very interesting fast. Now call ne crazy (disclaimer I haven't looked under a 2010 yet) but in the name of extra room I would suggest

A) and oil cooler and oil sump above the trans to keep volume up.

B) replacing the radiator from a long and skiny (verticaly speaking) to a shorter and deeper one that is about 1/2 the size top to bottom, and removing the fans from the rear (pull) style to front ( push) style fans.

I mean if you guys are talking about replacing crossmembers/subframes and manifolds, fabbing oil pans what is a after market fan and radiator??? Just a thought..

Now letting the flaming begin...

 

I wanted to find an object that would be most impossibly desired by "enthusiasts.". Then I wanted that object to be ruined in the most flamboyant way, as the owner perhaps could have said, I have $1million and I'm going to throw vomit on it, because I can, because it will be sure to upset at least someone.". That's my kind of person

 

Your thoughts for making space are good, but are also unnecessary. It will become more clear once the builds start coming.

 

I got under my car today, and I am sure I can meet my goals of fitment and header design. Wish I had the time.

[sixspeedlegacy]

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85415&stc=1&d=1274961369

 

Did you miss this pic from Subaru? Did you not read my posts? It's a low mount twin scroll turbo with equal length divided manifold. The front cylinders go to one scroll and the rear cylinders go to the other. The firing order alternates between front and rear so you get the pulsing effect. There's nothing to debate about on this point. That's the design Subaru chose.

 

It also seems to have an outer layer (the "sliding structure") to retain heat inside the manifold, just like exhaust manifolds used on a lot of other cars these days.

 

I know it baffles logic as to why they would have divided the primaries all the way to the turbo only to use a single scroll turbo but they did. I was under the impression it was twin scroll until a couple months ago. You seem to have access to the service manuals, there is a pic of the turbo in there and it shows a single scroll.

 

Ben

[sixspeedlegacy]

Passenger side header is done and the v-band for the turbo is in place.

 

The unmolested, stock oil pan fits!!!

 

I may have to make a small dent in it to give the driver side header a little clearence.. but if I ever remake this kit, I can do it without modifying the stock oil pan.

 

 

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/IMG_2774.jpg

 

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/IMG_2773.jpg

 

Nice work, I'll be curious to see how this works. Obviously this is not true twin scroll but shortens the path significantly which I think can show some nice gains.

 

I would like to compare the single scroll 2010 (equal length short route) to a twin scroll 2010 setup(equal length short route twin scroll). With the ONLY difference being twin scroll and seeing the difference in performance. I 100% understand and agree with the potential of twin scroll but I do want to see objective testing to see if the added cost is worth the gain in performance.

 

Ben

[mwiener2]

There is no current Twinscroll Turbo that will fit in that space.... especially without modifying the oil pan. The V-band is the smallest flange you can get.

 

I finished the headers last night. I think I'm going to add a flex section to the drivers side runner. Even after cutting twice and measuring once, it's a bit tight to slide the headers on and off.

[ClimberDHexMods]

How hard is it to design a header in SolidWorks if you've never used the software before? What is the most efficient way to learn to do so? Nothing fancy, just want to place the individual pieces of pipe and position flanges and a crude oil pan in the middle of it all. Don't want a repeat of my last experience where we had to make two fabrication attempts. I just want to show my welder what his exact design is and hand him the exact pre-cut pipe. My paper sketches are only 2D and the software looks like great fun. Best to ask first

[mwiener2]

I don't use software

[ClimberDHexMods]

I don't use software

 

Yup. I was asking more since this thread has several engineers keeping up with it. Figured SolidWorks to an Engineer is Excel to a Business person. The posts I've come across all say it's easy to do. Not much about easy to learn, but some direct info would be really nice.

[fahr_side]

I know it baffles logic as to why they would have divided the primaries all the way to the turbo only to use a single scroll turbo but they did. I was under the impression it was twin scroll until a couple months ago. You seem to have access to the service manuals, there is a pic of the turbo in there and it shows a single scroll.

I notice the Japanese website claims 285ps / 350Nm for the Spec B, so might the JDM models be using the same header with a twin-scroll turbo?

[ClimberDHexMods]

Entirely possible. In the past Subaru has made their best (JDM) cars twinscroll, so it would not be a big surprise if they are or will be doing the same with this platform. However, twinscroll by itself doesn't make much difference in peak output. It's more about response and boost threshold ala driveability. Subaru could have put a bigger turbo in some JDM cars, or done other things to get the power, maybe or maybe not twinscroll. Or the numbers don't tell the whole story, or aren't comparable. Point is it could be just about anything.

[fahr_side]

Entirely possible. In the past Subaru has made their best (JDM) cars twinscroll, so it would not be a big surprise if they are or will be doing the same with this platform. However, twinscroll by itself doesn't make much difference in peak output. It's more about response and boost threshold ala driveability. Subaru could have put a bigger turbo in some JDM cars, or done other things to get the power, maybe or maybe not twinscroll. Or the numbers don't tell the whole story, or aren't comparable. Point is it could be just about anything.

Yes. Thanks. I realize this. It seems to about the most rational explanation for making the header how they did. There is plenty of space there for them to join the two secondaries into one pipe to meet the turbo. Instead, they left it split. It makes sense to me that they created a split header in order to run a twin-scroll. It also makes sense that they use the same header on a normal single-entry turbo to save a few bucks, since they are paying IHI to create a new turbine housing whichever way you slice it. I wish my Japanese were better to properly translate the blurb on the B4, but it isn't, so all I have is speculation.

[ClimberDHexMods]

Definitely not JUST a volume production benefit. It improves upon all the inefficiencies of the older single scroll manifold style.

[LittleBlueGT]

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/IMG_2774.jpg

 

 

 

Is there anything that can be done about the wrong cylinder pairing? Or is that a necessary evil to make it fit with OEM oil pan? Hoping the benefits outweigh the drawbacks?

[mwiener2]

I'm not making a twinscroll so it doesn't matter which cylinders are paired with which.

 

I also just noticed that my crossmember is covered in oil... that's from the car sitting for a month with no oil pan and the engine slowly dripping out onto the floor. I should go clean that.

 

 

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/IMG_2782.jpg

 

 

Car is on the wheels, not on the lift...

 

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/IMG_2779.jpg

 

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/5250Performance/IMG_2778.jpg

[LittleBlueGT]

I'm not making a twinscroll so it doesn't matter which cylinders are paired with which.

 

I don't want to argue with you, but you are incorrect.

 

Every other header manufacturer pairs the cylinders so that the pulses come out equally.

 

---X------X------X------X

 

your will be like this:

 

---X---X---------X---X---

 

That was the downfall of the WBR header that I did testing on about two years ago:

 

WBR ELH by .............LBGT

 

The OEM header is designed the same way as yours, so it doesn't mean that it won't work, but at higher rpm I would expect a small decrease in power output.

 

Still cool though. I hope the close placement of the turbo vs the heads will more then make up for the inefficiency of the manifold.

[mwiener2]

we'll just have to wait and see

[ClimberDHexMods]

Aside from a few issues such as low budget, no time, no garage after July, uncertainty of a SEMA unveiling, the divided T4 collector is the main challenge. I have been drawing a solution, but I really want 3D CAD!!! However my current thought is to buy some dirt cheap 1 1/4" schedule 10 or 40 PVC pipe bits and do the mockup that way. Then more expensive steel pipe can be cut when winter sets in. If anyone can be bothered to hook me up with a copy of SolidWorks, that would be appreciated. I tried downloading two other CAD products, and so far no dice.

[05Boost]

in for the subscribe. But just wondering what turbo you are using for the comparision? And had you used and tuned this turbo with the stock location turbo and then once this is done making an overlay of the charts for comparison purpose I assume?

 

Awesome what you are doing hope the hard work pays off!

[ClimberDHexMods]

in for the subscribe. But just wondering what turbo you are using for the comparision? And had you used and tuned this turbo with the stock location turbo and then once this is done making an overlay of the charts for comparison purpose I assume?

 

Awesome what you are doing hope the hard work pays off!

 

First, I have done nothing but place a turbo in a specific area, take measurements, and design on paper a way to run the primaries and collector.

 

Mweiner2 has actually built something.

 

I have no plans to use the same turbo for stock location as under engine, so there will be no good comparison. The current plan is to use the Borg Warner S200SX 75-70 with 1.00A/R, which is used rarely and has almost no good data for comparison. But my goal is driveability, not logged or dyno performance, so your best bet is to find comparable data with the turbo mweiner2 is using and then see what difference the shorter runners have on that performance.

 

Remember that despite everyone always dropping the "comparison" word, there is almost NEVER an accurate comparison done. To do so, one would need a Full-Race twinscroll kit and a tune for it, and then one would need the same for a front mount turbo kit. Then one would have to swap setups and do runs on the same day at similar temperature. I have no intention of making money off of this, only spending money, so I have no reason to do anything like that. So I'm afraid you're not going to get much from me.

 

Add in the issue of the fact that technology changes over time, and therefore when my time comes to dump my current setup and do this project, I'll do what makes the most sense then. I'm not even sure my engine and transmission will be in one piece come winter.

 

IF anyone else wants to do this on your own car, specifically a twinscroll version, I am happy to provide you with all the details to my own designs that would help speed along your development phase. I'm no more use than that for the next several months. I shouldn't even be looking at a new project right now.

[05Boost]

Im not looking for a direct all things equal but at least something similar. I understand that certain things might be done differently with a turbo this way. Possibly shorter or just much shorter then stock location to run an FMIC making the FMIC the better option.

 

But would be nice to know that in this location the turbo does get benefit. Ie. Running X turbo, stock location with tmic nets around this in power/ 1/4mile times/performance, and X turbo new location with tmic or fmic (whatever done) nets something like this with same catagories.

 

I really dont think a twin scroll setup would need to be compaired since every 05-09 LGT in USA is not twin-scroll from factory and Mweiner2 isnt doing a twin scroll-setup