rao Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 If AWD is so bad at the track then WHY WAS IT BANNED FROM MOST FROM OF RACING This thread is awesome. It's like Godzilla v King Kong. King of Cars v King of Cars. Slower cars are faster than faster cars and torque is no good because it exceeds traction, but traction is no good because you don't need torque. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmp Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 If AWD is so bad at the track then WHY WAS IT BANNED FROM MOST FROM OF RACING Logical fallacy. AWD allows folk to (this should ring a bell) put down more power to the ground. BUT - where the car can't produce any more power, it's just added weight and understeer. Seriously - Easy concept. SOLD | '06 spec.B - VF52/AVO/740cc/Up/Down | 238awhp | 50-80mph 3.1 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolksey85 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Losing battle, here, people. Losing battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Logical fallacy. AWD allows folk to (this should ring a bell) put down more power to the ground. BUT - where the car can't produce any more power, it's just added weight and understeer. Seriously - Easy concept. Hmm, I could have sworn coming out of corner, using all 4 wheels to create forward progress would mean higher rates of acceleration were possible since you have 2 times the contact patch working towards acceleration vs. a FWD or RWD car... Here is some reading I found VERY quickly for you... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-wheel_drive) Nissan and Audi had success with all-wheel drive in road racing with the former's advent of the Nissan Skyline GT-R in 1989. So successful was the car that dominated the Japanese circuit for the first years of production, going on to bigger and more impressive wins in Australia before weight penalties eventually levied a defacto ban on the car. Most controversially was the win pulled off at the 1990 Macau Grand Prix where the car led from start to finish. Audi's dominance in the Trans-Am Series in 1988 was equally controversial as it led to a weight penalty mid season and to a rule revision banning all-AWD cars, its dominance in supertouring eventually led to a FIA ban on AWD system in 1998. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 By using data and personal experience to dispel the rumors and speculation you spread? What I previously wrote about the wankel, like it or not, is fact, no matter how much you try to debate it. That is all. Lap time ultimately doesn't relate to 'fun to drive' however. For someone that is so hung up on factual data when being debated, you sure as hell like throwing opinion around as long as it fits your point of view. Fun to drive? Absolutely NO car has been fun to drive for me that hasn't had at least a reasonable amount of torque. Also, what I find truly fun is to pwn snow covered roads and unpaved twisties. So your definition of "fun to drive" is ... well ... yours alone. So go ahead and scratch that one out of your argument. Anything else? Slower cars are faster than faster cars and torque is no good because it exceeds traction, but traction is no good because you don't need torque. I bet you he doesn't even know how strong the pwnage is in that one sentence. Seriously, we are debating the presence of awd at the track. That's just great. dmp's issue is the fact that he can't handle that not everyone out there likes or wants an RX8. Else he'd have left this thread long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phuzaxeman Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 i really dont see the point in the debate when the cars are so different. any lgt owner fan is going to back up their lgt on this forum. dmp, for a car that has "shitty steering feel, to shitty brakes, to shitty understeer, to gross weight. None of that makes for fun track experiences," the legacy has always had decent reviews and is a car that's admired from both young import owners to daily commute retired drivers (something the rx-8 can't say). as a fellow legacy owner, i find it interesting how you talk down on the legacy like it's so inferior to your rx-8. yeah it might not be a rx-8, but it's not supposed to be. there are a lot of areas (more comfortable ride, better engine, better gas mpg, etc) where the legacy shines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 ^^^^^^^ The RX-8 gets better mileage around the track than the LGT. The LGT drinks gas crazy quick. I've driven both of these cars around Thunderhill raceway. They are incredibly different cars. The lack of torque in the RX-8 makes it feel much slower than its numbers would suggest. The RX-8 is a momentum machine, the LGT uses a lot more brute force. Obviously, through the corners the RX-8 should be faster, but at the exit, the LGT has a significant advantage. It can get on the power sooner and harder. I'd note that anyone who says that AWD isn't an advantage in the dry has never driven an AWD car hard (and I mean on a track) or doesn't know how to drive an AWD car. AWD is a great advantage in any car with enough power to break traction on 2 wheels. If I set up a turn right on the LGT I can be full on the power basically at the apex. Try that with the RX-8 or other RWD car and you'll have wheelspin or worse. It is hard to say what is better, because as I've mentioned, they're completely different. Personally, I like driving the legacy more than the RX-8. It just makes me happy to pilot a large, powerful car. The LGT is also more forgiving of mistakes. The Mazda has a better gearbox though. LGT - 0 times around a track. I can tell it'd be absolutely horrible to drive at 8-9/10ths. From shitty steering feel, to shitty brakes, to shitty understeer, to gross weight. None of that makes for fun track experiences. This means you're talking out of your ass. Steering feel? Ok it could be better Shitty brakes? Not with Carbotech pads. Huge rotors, a big caliper. I can outbrake quite a few cars, over and over again. shitty understeer? n00b. No, I mean that. gross weight? Compared to an RX-8? Sure. Compared to the world? My station wagon weighs 3350lbs. Thats the same as a 328i sedan(RWD). OH.MY.GOD.WHAT.A.PIG. Learn to drive an AWD car (you have to drive it different) and report back. It may not be as fun as your RX-8 to you, but you'll find that it is shockingly good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolksey85 Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 :lol: http://www.xbapodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/fanboi-anatomy.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex--TheGreek Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 This is the first full year to insure both cars (both 2005, same drivers). The RX-8 is much cheaper to insure than the LGT. (about 1/3) Damn! Insurance thinks the RX-8 is worth way too much as well $20k v. $18k for the LGT (agreed value policy). My insurance company over estimates values quite a bit, but damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmp Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 This means you're talking out of your ass. Steering feel? Ok it could be better Shitty brakes? Not with Carbotech pads. Huge rotors, a big caliper. I can outbrake quite a few cars, over and over again. shitty understeer? n00b. No, I mean that. gross weight? Compared to an RX-8? Sure. Compared to the world? My station wagon weighs 3350lbs. Thats the same as a 328i sedan(RWD). OH.MY.GOD.WHAT.A.PIG. Learn to drive an AWD car (you have to drive it different) and report back. It may not be as fun as your RX-8 to you, but you'll find that it is shockingly good. LMFAO... That's a riot. Keep on topic, dude. We're talking 'stock'. Understeer doesn't depend on the driver. It's inherent with AWD - why are you pretending to be stupid? Stock, the LGT brakes are garbage. It'd take $2000? or so to get it even CLOSE to a RX8 with $80 replacement pads. A stock LGT is NOT shockingly good. It's not supposed to be There are probably AWD cars that ARE shockingly good to drive around the track. The Camry/Maz6/Accord-battling Legacy GT is NOT one of them. Sorry if that gets you all butt-hurt. SOLD | '06 spec.B - VF52/AVO/740cc/Up/Down | 238awhp | 50-80mph 3.1 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Comparing the Legacy GT with the RX8 is like comparing the Impreza with a Miata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolksey85 Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Comparing the Legacy GT with the RX8 is like comparing the Impreza with a Miata. End thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmp Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 More like comparing the outback with the Miata...but yup. SOLD | '06 spec.B - VF52/AVO/740cc/Up/Down | 238awhp | 50-80mph 3.1 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 LMFAO... That's a riot. Keep on topic, dude. We're talking 'stock'. Understeer doesn't depend on the driver. It's inherent with AWD - why are you pretending to be stupid? Stock, the LGT brakes are garbage. It'd take $2000? or so to get it even CLOSE to a RX8 with $80 replacement pads. A stock LGT is NOT shockingly good. It's not supposed to be There are probably AWD cars that ARE shockingly good to drive around the track. The Camry/Maz6/Accord-battling Legacy GT is NOT one of them. Sorry if that gets you all butt-hurt. Does the legacy understeer in certain situations? Yes. Does it oversteer in certain situations? Yes. The key is learning how to get it into the situation where is oversteers or is neutral. It is a different car to drive. It is also quite controllable in oversteer. Brakes? I've put two things into my brakes. Fluid and track pads (same fluid and pads as on the RX-8, BTW). That's it. The legacy rotors are actually bigger than the (heavier) STI rotors and fade isn't really any issue. You're confusing feel with performance. The stock legacy brakes with good pads will stop quickly again and again and again. The stock suspension is soft and I got rid of it. But back when i ran it stock, it wasn't that bad once you changed tires. You need to realize that bodyroll isn't a great indicator of when you will lose traction on the LGT. I turned out respectable times on stock suspension. The RX-8 has certain track advantages. Stock, it is probably the better track car. It has much lower consumable costs. But, the legacy is more fun. I'm not exactly butt-hurt. I could go drive either of them. But honestly, I prefer the LGT in a lot of situations. The RX-8, for example, is a much, much better auto-x car (and I hope to turn it into a good B-stock car). But on the track, I have more fun in the LGT. Seriously, how can you slam the track performance of the legacy GT when you've never driven it on the track? Unless you're driving 8-9/10s on public roads, you have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmp Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 With entirely new suspension, big break kit, steering rack swap, weight redux, and 100hp, the LGT is SOO MUCH mo'bettah than an RX8 towing a boat at the track...OMGWTF (shrug). I can slam the track performance of the LGT for the same reason I can slam the track performance of my wife's F150 SuperCrew 4x4. I know what 'good handling' cars FEEL like. I know what obscene amounts of body roll FEEL like. I know what BARELY adequate brakes feel like. I can slam the Legacy GT's track performance for the same reason I can tell you baby shit wrapped in bacon still tastes bad. If you visit a track with very long straights, sweepers, lots of run-off area, I'm sure the LGT would be fine. SOLD | '06 spec.B - VF52/AVO/740cc/Up/Down | 238awhp | 50-80mph 3.1 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 (shrug). I can slam the track performance of the LGT for the same reason I can slam the track performance of my wife's F150 SuperCrew 4x4. I know what 'good handling' cars FEEL like. I know what obscene amounts of body roll FEEL like. I know what BARELY adequate brakes feel like. I can slam the Legacy GT's track performance for the same reason I can tell you baby shit wrapped in bacon still tastes bad. If you visit a track with very long straights, sweepers, lots of run-off area, I'm sure the LGT would be fine. Awesome. I'll take experience over what someone "feels" any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmp Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Translation: "I like my LGT, so don't say anything negative about it!" How about data - read the data panels of the measured tests of the LGT. If you think it works great as a track car, drive a Miata or a RX8 or an Elise or a Corvette or an S2000 - something like that. You'd spend the whole session creamin' your britches. I've never met a track guy who loves pillow-soft springs and terrible brakes. But...takes all kinds I suppose. You're close to T-Hill. Taken the LGT there? If so, tell me how it feels through turn 5. SOLD | '06 spec.B - VF52/AVO/740cc/Up/Down | 238awhp | 50-80mph 3.1 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 Translation: "I like my LGT, so don't say anything negative about it!" How about data - read the data panels of the measured tests of the LGT. If you think it works great as a track car, drive a Miata or a RX8 or an Elise or a Corvette or an S2000 - something like that. You'd spend the whole session creamin' your britches. I've tracked the RX-8. I'm not saying the Legacy is a "better" track car. I'm saying the legacy is a more fun track car for me. Even stock. I've never met a track guy who loves pillow-soft springs and terrible brakes. But...takes all kinds I suppose. You're close to T-Hill. Taken the LGT there? If so, tell me how it feels through turn 5. No, I never have I've driven both of these cars around Thunderhill raceway. Reading is fun. The legacy is actually a lot of fun over the hill. I even get the ass out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmp Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 What about that off-camber at the bottom? that'd skeer me in a LGT...again...understeer blows. SOLD | '06 spec.B - VF52/AVO/740cc/Up/Down | 238awhp | 50-80mph 3.1 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted October 4, 2009 Share Posted October 4, 2009 What about that off-camber at the bottom? that'd skeer me in a LGT...again...understeer blows. It isn't that bad, really. Actually, I hate the bypass far more. Line a little bit off and "holy shit, light!" Speaking of off camber, the AWD is really good in 3 because of all the shit that gets tossed on 3 due to cars off. Now, 11-13. The Rx-8 powns the LGT through there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolksey85 Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Translation: "I like my LGT, so don't say anything negative about it!" Translation for your posts: I *heart* my RX-8 so don't badmouth it. Don't be the pot calling the kettle black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmp Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Translation for your posts: I *heart* my RX-8 so don't badmouth it. Don't be the pot calling the kettle black. That translates to "Nuh-uh!! You are!" I've filled my posts with measured and reported data and personal experiences. I don't *heart* my rx8 - it has plenty of flaws - i've mentioned quite a few. It isn't that bad, really. Actually, I hate the bypass far more. Line a little bit off and "holy shit, light!" Speaking of off camber, the AWD is really good in 3 because of all the shit that gets tossed on 3 due to cars off. Now, 11-13. The Rx-8 powns the LGT through there. I REALLY miss T-Hill. I ran it in my Turbo'd miata (black car, center w/ white circle number sticker) back before there were any? buildings there...just a small wooden building. Now I hear it's all built up! http://www.legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=74118&stc=1&d=1254703932 SOLD | '06 spec.B - VF52/AVO/740cc/Up/Down | 238awhp | 50-80mph 3.1 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbone Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Next time I walk another RX8, I'm sure I'll think of dmp. And smile to myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmp Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 Next time I walk another RX8, I'm sure I'll think of dmp. And smile to myself. Nice. Thanks. I'm married (to a woman)...but appreciate the sentiments. SOLD | '06 spec.B - VF52/AVO/740cc/Up/Down | 238awhp | 50-80mph 3.1 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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