Any consensus on Brake Upgrades

[Drift Monkey]

I have in the past from back to back track days.. I didnt allow the car neutral out from acceleration to deceleration from the straights. It's not that hard to just run a few laps and start feeling the pedal sink down to the floor.. imagine the enduro races.. that's when you start buying Castrol SRF instead of Motul RBF600 (which are both higher in temps than ATE).

 

 

Keefe

Yes..all street situations I see...

[JRittStopTech]

Jsalicru,

 

Thanks for the props. I agree that the STi Brembos (sorry STI now), would be adequate for many users. That said, we have many Track 350Z, STI, and Lancer Evo owners that buy our front systems to replace their factory Brembos because they run out of heat capacity on the track. The rotor size increase between those systems may seem marginal, but it is significant. Then again, the Evo and STI in particular tend to be at a performance level that is a notch higher than the LGT...that means higher speeds and more heat. The other thing is, there's only so many of those used Brembo kits to go around, and they usually command a solid price.

 

For me, a used STI system for all four corners would be attractive at $3000 or less. At more than that, I'd be looking at one of our front systems. You'd get more performance for a lot less money ($1895). Our front system for the LGT has a 332x32mm rotor. The STI is 326x30mm, 350Z is 324x30mm, and Evo is 320x32mm. Our front kit has substantially more heat capacity on size alone, and our vane design is far superior in terms of airflow vs. the vane design on these systems.

Here's a link that you might find interesting. This is a summary of our testing that one of our resellers put together. It pits the 350Z track model Brembo's against our kits: http://zeckhausenracing.com/Testing_Brakes.htm As speeds go up, the differences in rotor temps become more pronounced. You can also see that our kit more efficiently uses the rear brakes on the car, reflected in slightly higher rear temps (but still within capacity), and very slightly shorter stopping distances (1-2ft.). The higher speeds with a superior vane design promote even greater cooling. It's not apples to apples because these two platforms have different needs in terms of braking, but it gives a good idea of the type of effort that goes into every kit we design. If you look at our 355mm kit, you see the temperature difference that even more mass on the front rotor gets you. That's why some of the fastest Evo's in the country are running our 355mm kit. 30-50 degrees difference in rotor tempurature can mean the difference between fading and not fading your brakes on the track.

 

I'll give you another real-world example...The Unitech 350Z's in Grand Am Cup were running our 2 piece stock-sized rotors on their Track Model Z's. They were running out of heat capacity at Laguna Seca, and they were getting less than one race out of their pads. They then successfully lobbied for our 332mm kit to be allowed in competition. Now they are getting 2+ races out of a pad set, and they won the first race with our full kit at Barber Motorsports Park the first weekend in August: http://www.stoptech.com/press_releases/3_wins_1_weekend.htm For them, the BBK was the difference between winning races and running out of brakes and not finishing. Obviously this is the extreme example, but it is real-world.

 

I realize that some people can't get over the look of having a front-only BBK. I guess my overall point is however, in terms of pure performance our kit is more effective, and a better value for $1895 than a Brembo 4 wheel factory STI kit...and I don't see those STI kits at under $1895 very often!

[jsalicru]

you see them... I've seen a full set for <$1600.

 

However, you pose some good points nevertheless..

 

But even at front vs. front... Of course the Stop-Tech is better, I don't doubt you in that. What I AM saying is... End user that does auto-x and some track time is just as well off using a $900(I have seen them as low as $700) used set of STi brembos with some nice pads/fluids as having a 1800 set of Stop-Techs. You are right in every aspect you mention.. and I will not question or argue your points... I can tell you that I had issues with STi brakes at Ca Sdwy infield course with my STi. Changed to Motul 600 and I was late braking through most of my session "slowing down" (short-shifting actually) only to let my Oil Pressure stabilize and my Oil Temps drop because of the costant battering I gave the car. I can't tell you that my brake pedal wasn't the stiffest pedal out there, but I can tell you that thoughout the entire afternoon sessions, my pedal was predictable and stable... enabling me to really enjoy the session. It required some good fluid for me to do so, but I was able to work it out. The only real issue I have with STi Brembos is the high level of effort they seem to require in the user's part. Its almost as if they are not assisted as much as one would like.

[JRittStopTech]

Less than $1600 for the full 4 wheel Brembo kit is a great buy. I was just pointing out that it has its limits, and those limits are capable of being exceeded. For many people, they may never reach those limits. For others, the stock Brembos would simply ruin their day at their local track.

 

Your experience on the infield at CA Spdwy doesn't really surprise me. I've only driven the full track there, but I believe the infield isn't too terribly tough on brakes. What is the heaviest brake zone on that config? Have you ever run the STi at Buttonwillow on stock brakes? I've had customers at Road America annihilate stock STI brakes! It all depends on the track, conditions, the car, and who's behind the wheel.

 

There is probably an issue with your suggested solution of the Front-only STI setup, in conjunction with the stock LGT rear however (I say probably because I don't have the numbers handy to do the math). I'm fairly certain the LGT stock rear is significantly lower in brake torque than the stock STI rear, due to smaller diameter rotors, and smaller total piston area. All else held equal, if you swap the front only STI on to the LGT, you're going to be shifting bias signficantly to the front of the car. You're most likely going to signficantly increase brake torque on the front of the car, and underutilize your rear brakes. It will be stable and safe if this happens, but not the most efficient use of your four tires. If you're moving more fluid into larger pistons, you're probably going to have a longer pedal as well. This is just my hunch, but I'd need to know Master Cylinder size, piston bores, and specific rotor sizes to be certain. My point is that there are a lot of factors to consider.

 

In regards to effort and modulation, I unfortunately haven't had the pleasure of wringing out an Evo or STi Brembo equipped car on the track. The one pumped-up Evo I drove on the track had our kit on it!

 

BTW, who do you do trackdays with here in SoCal?

[jsalicru]

Last time I went was with redline track events...

 

The config I ran at Ca Spdwy had the inner straight where the speed approaching the braking zone of the front straight on a modded STi is around 125-130, the part between then and the back straight have many braking zones that can take their toll on ill prep'd brakes. Then there's the back straight, where my brakes went on the first session due to break fluid boiling... The top speed there is probably in the low 100s maybe high 90s... hard on the brakes (where I was surprised to step out the tail of my STi (stiff coilovers I think aggravated this) and then a shinane... then it was the late apex to the straight again...

 

 

Never had the pleasure to run Buttonwillow... YET

[PGT]

Patagonian GT...why do I get the distinct feeling that you're going to be calling me this week? Here, let me save you some trouble: 310-325-4799 x104

 

sent you a PM

 

What can be done to improve braking for the street? On every STi I have driven, the brakes give you extreme confidence and the braking tests show that the car is down there with a 911 as far as stopping distances.

 

I have pads, lines, a stiffer suspension than stock and most importantly, competent tires (245 width no less). All the upgrades are an improvement over stock, but lack the confidence of the STi or even the Mini we own.

[Greg_STL]

.

 

I forgot to mention...our rear kit is indeed the expensive one. We primarily developed that 2 piston caliper with certain Speed World Challenge race cars in mind, and it's made entirely from billet aluminum (the front is squeeze forged). The 2-piston is extremely costly and time consuming to manufacture when compared to our front 4 piston....hence the higher retail price. It's also fairly low volume compared to our front 4-piston. We are working on bringing the cost down on the 2 piston though.

 

JRitt-

 

I always thought the reason the rears were more expensive was the subaru unique parking brake integration on a two piece rotor. If the real reason is the billet 2-pot caliper, why not go 4-pot in the rear. Lots of vehicles have 4-pot front and rear options (like your 350z).

 

I just went to the new site and I can't pick a 2005 Legacy GT. Ooops?

 

BTW/OT - Its funny you have a 350z and Legacy. My wife had a 2003 G35c 6MT that she ordered 6 months before they hit the US shores. It was t-boned by a college student that intentionally ran a red light because she was late for class. The G35c gave its live for her so she bought a 2005 G35c 6MT as a replacement. We took them both (G35c and LGT) to Mid-Ohio race course this summer and had a blast. Part of the reason I want a BBK is I always loved the way her 2003 Brembos looked. The other reason is I've tracked my LGT and ....

[drewster]

Got a pm back from one of the brake manufacturers that said that a front BBK for a LGT will not work for the Outback XT. Any thoughts if this is the case or just that it hasn't been done yet? Maybe I should offer my vehicle as a test case, huh?

[praedet]

Just a piece that many are missing. The Legacy has an electronic brake distribution (EBD) system to decide on rear braking proportioning. Based on what I have read in the manual and other places, it uses the ABS sensors in the rear to sense how much braking can be taken on in the rear. (i.e. apply rear bakes until the rear tires are about to lock-up, when the sensors sense lock-up, dial-out some of the rear bias)Ideally, this allows you to add a front system that would normally create more front bias, and the EBD accounts for it. I don't know how adaptable the algorithms on the system are though, so who knows. The manual does discuss the ability of the system to adapt to different weight loads(i.e. front rear differences in loading), so I think that the system could add rear bias too as needed with larger front brakes or stiffer suspension. (I know that ideally the BBK is set-up so you don't change the bias, but...)

 

Just an intereting option the Legacy seems to allow...

 

Ted

[Xenonk]

Just a piece that many are missing. The Legacy has an electronic brake distribution (EBD) system to decide on rear braking proportioning. Based on what I have read in the manual and other places, it uses the ABS sensors in the rear to sense how much braking can be taken on in the rear. (i.e. apply rear bakes until the rear tires are about to lock-up, when the sensors sense lock-up, dial-out some of the rear bias)Ideally, this allows you to add a front system that would normally create more front bias, and the EBD accounts for it. I don't know how adaptable the algorithms on the system are though, so who knows. The manual does discuss the ability of the system to adapt to different weight loads(i.e. front rear differences in loading), so I think that the system could add rear bias too as needed with larger front brakes or stiffer suspension. (I know that ideally the BBK is set-up so you don't change the bias, but...)

 

Just an intereting option the Legacy seems to allow...

 

Ted

 

So what happens when you take out the ABS? would it be strictly all mechanical??

[JRittStopTech]

Greg,

 

The problem with some of these applications is that we need to use a 2 piston caliper to get the appropriate brake torque in the rear to balance the bias. Our 4 piston caliper's lowest piston size combo is 28-28. That's 4 pistons of 28mm diameter. On some platforms, if you mate that caliper up to a 328mm diamter rotor (our smallest standard AeroRotor size), the brake torque is still too high for proper balance.

Therefore, we use the 2-piston rear caliper which can also use a 28mm piston. On that caliper though, there are only 2 pistons! Therefore, at the smallest piston diameters you can get 1/2 the torque out of the 2 piston that you can out of the four. With the biggest pistons installed, the 2 piston can overlap well into the torque range of what 4 piston caliper can do.

The 2 piston is also about 3 lbs. lighter in terms of weigh, which is a great benefit.

That's funny on the wife's ride. My fiancee loves her new LGT, but I don't think she'll ever take it on the track. She used to autoX once in a while (and she won), but she's really not all that interested. She just doesn't quite seem to be the speed junky that I am.

[JRittStopTech]

Drewster,

 

The Outback XT has the same size front rotor diameter as the STi...and the same size rotor in the rear as the 2.5i. Both F and R rotor sizes are different on the LGT. Front and rear calipers are also different from the LGT, as are pad shapes.

 

We should be able to put an apporpriately balanced kit together for the XT based on the components we already have for the STi and LGT. Piston sizing will need to be assessed for proper balance however. I have a request into Engineering to look at it.

 

Any thoughts if this is the case or just that it hasn't been done yet?

ps I wasn't making stuff up when I pm'd you my response.

[drewster]

thanks, looking forward to what you guys come up with. (i'm basically wanting just the fronts). Oh yeah one more thing, considering there's another thread floating around about SS lines that don't quite fit and so far it seems that none fit for the rear of the outback, can you guys work on this also?

[PGT]

sent you a PM

 

What can be done to improve braking for the street? On every STi I have driven, the brakes give you extreme confidence and the braking tests show that the car is down there with a 911 as far as stopping distances.

 

I have pads, lines, a stiffer suspension than stock and most importantly, competent tires (245 width no less). All the upgrades are an improvement over stock, but lack the confidence of the STi or even the Mini we own.

 

response?

[highwaydrifter]

all i know is my old stoptechs on my wrx (front only kit) saved me from more then a few tickets on the highway.... lets just say the car was at a dead stop and the speedo was still reading 60

[JRittStopTech]

Patience!

A good first step would be some quality pads with some SS lines. This should give some bite and a firmer feel to the system for confidence. If you want better looks and a little more pad bite, a slotted or drilled rotor is an option. The pad would give the biggest difference in overall feel though. We're working on finding various compounds for the front pad shape.

 

We have stainless steel lines F/R for the 05 LGT

 

85-839-4500(F) Legacy except 2001-02 GT LTD $81.00

 

85-839-5500® Legacy (4 Line Kit) $143.00

 

We also have slotted or drilled rotors:

StopTech SportStop Drilled or Slotted Rotors...same price for either slotted or drilled:

 

Front Rotor Part Number: 50-47024-XXX

 

Front Rotor Price: $124.00 each

 

Rear Rotor Part Number: 50-47025-XXX

 

Rear Rotor Price: $84.00 each

I have a number of rear pads now, but the front pad is the problem. We're working on getting some front pad options.

Rear Pads

 

 

 

Axxis Deluxe Plus: 63-213-0770

 

Price: $24.95

 

Axxis Ultimate: 63-223-0770

 

Price: $33.95

 

Hawk HPS: 63-410-0770

 

Price: $71.95

 

Hawk HT-10:

 

Price: $151.95

 

StopTech Club Race:

 

Price: $93.00

Once we get the front pad sorted out, we will offer stage I and II packages. These have been very popular with WRX owners for years. Here are examples of Stage I and II descriptions from our website. These would come in drilled or slotted.

Stage 1 Kit Stage 1 brake upgrade kit for 2002-2003 Subaru Impreza WRX with newer-style front pads and older-style rear pads. Includes StopTech Street Performance front pads, Axxis Ultimate rear pads, front and rear StopTech SS brake lines, and three 500mL bottles of Motul RBF600 DOT 4 synthetic brake fluid. FITS STOCK CALIPERS. $309

 

Stage 2 Kit

Stage 2 drilled brake upgrade kit for 2002-2003 Subaru Impreza WRX with newer-style front pads and older-style rear pads. Includes front StopTech Street Performance pads, rear Axxis Ultimate pads, front and rear StopTech SS brake lines, three 500mL bottles of Motul RBF600 DOT 4 synthetic brake fluid, a pair of drilled StopTech direct replacement front rotors, and a pair of drilled rear StopTech direct replacement rear rotors.. FITS STOCK CALIPERS. $579

 

 

[PGT]

Patience!

 

/\ /\

 

Says the guy who doesn't have vendor status yet, but is still trying to sell me parts I already said I have on my car!!

 

Let me say again - I have Cobb pads, SS lines, SuperBlue and a 245 width Goodyear F1 on the car now. It's much better than stock, but still behind the stock STi and Mini in feel. What next? Rotors? Lighter wheels? Helium? Drag chute?

[DeepFreeze2]

I'd say drag chute, PGT.

[PGT]

I'd say drag chute, PGT.

 

think I'd have to give up sleeper status?

[DeepFreeze2]

More than likely. Unless you had it fire from you cargo area via the rear window.

[JRittStopTech]

Hey...not my fault nobody wants my sponsorship money!

 

It sounds like a BBK is about all you have left! I don't think you are never going to get that STi feel of a fixed caliper system with a slider. There's too much slop and compliance. Our calipers are so much stiffer.

 

I've never driven a Mini, so I can't comment. I will say however, that some stock systems simply feel better than others. Leverage issues, pedal travel, MC size, piston size, pad choice, abs sensitivity and programming...they all factor in to feel. All the cars with our kits even feel different based on these factors.

 

+1 for the sleeper chute. Maybe you could hook it to a tow hitch?

[PGT]

Hey...not my fault nobody wants my sponsorship money!

 

 

Tide is running long hours at work...I am sure he will get back to you soon

[DeepFreeze2]

Hey PGT, we ought to design something and get a patent for it.$ $ $

 

 

 

 

Btw-I wouldn't be opposed to Hawk F&R pads and brakelines @ JRitt. In fact I'd like 'em. Pm me with info, please.

[Greg_STL]

JRitt-

 

Sounds great. I should be able to put my Stage 1.5 BBK together from all stoptech parts for just under $2350

 

Front BBK $1900

Rear Slotted Rotors $168

Rear SS Lines $143

Rear Hawk HPS Pads $72

Fluid (3 Btl Motul) $40

 

It won't be until spring but that will give me some time to think about pads.... (And to work on someone to make a GB.)

 

PGT-

 

Sleeper Chute - I'm thinking hydraulically actuated rear doors and trunk. Think air brake ala F-15 Eagle. It wouldn't be sleeper while operating but the rear doors and trunk should be aft of the center of gravity so it would be aerodynamically stable, it should give about the increased area of a small chute, and you could hydralically close them and drive off without having to re-pack the chute.

 

 

-g

[BigT]

The main function is NOT to shorten stopping distances, which are solely limited by the traction provided by the choice of tire.

 

Sorry for the resurection, but if this is true what are the advantages for upgrading brakes for someone who is a spirited driver? I mean I do a bit of spirited driving myself. Would upgraded pads or breaks help me stop faster or shorter at all? I just can't wrap my mind around this. Why do sportier cars come with Brembo brakes? Is it just for aesthetics, just to have something else to tack on the final price?