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Any consensus on Brake Upgrades

chucktoo

By chucktoo
in Suspension/Brakes

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JRittStopTech Apprentice

JRittStopTech

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Hi Guys,

 

After mentioning in a post the other day that I just bought an LGT wagon, I've received a few PM's about what StopTech offers in the way of brake upgrades for the LGT. We do have a couple of big brake kits for the LGT at this time, and they are slightly different from the WRX and STi kits. Here are the product descriptions from our website:

 

Big Brake Kits

 

 

StopTech front wheel Big Brake Upgrade for the 2005 Subaru Legacy GT. The kit includes ST-40 4-piston front calipers painted red, black, or silver, 7075-T6 billet aluminum caliper mounting brackets, 332x32mm slotted, floating, front AeroRotors, 7075-T6 billet aluminum AeroHats with directional standoffs, StopTech SS (DOT compliant) front brake lines, and Axxis Ultimate front brake pads. Requires 17 inch or larger wheels, however not all 17 inch wheels will fit. Please check the wheel fitment chart for your car. Options: Drilled rotors - $100 per pair; Yellow or blue paint - $200 per pair of calipers and 30 day lead time. $1895.00 - Item No. 83-839-4600

 

Big Brake Kits

 

 

StopTech four wheel Big Brake Upgrade for the 2005 Subaru Legacy GT. The kit includes ST-40 4-piston front calipers painted red, black, or silver, ST-22 2-piston opposed billet rear calipers painted red, black, or silver, 7075-T6 billet aluminum caliper mounting brackets, 332x32mm slotted, floating, front AeroRotors, 328x28mm slotted, floating, rear AeroRotors, 7075-T6 billet aluminum AeroHats with directional standoffs, StopTech SS (DOT compliant) front and rear brake lines, Axxis Ultimate front brake pads, and Hawk HPS rear brake pads. Requires 17 inch or larger wheels, however not all 17 inch wheels will fit. Please check the wheel fitment chart for your car. Options: Drilled rotors - $100 per pair; Yellow or blue paint - $200 per pair of calipers and 30 day lead time. $4695.00 - Item No. 83-839-4623

 

Here is the link to the wheel fitment charts:

http://www.stoptech.com/wheelfitchart/wheelchart_index.htm

 

I'm picking up my LGT Wagon today, so I should be able to measure brake kit clearance very soon!:D

 

Let me know what you guys are looking for. We can probably get slotted or drilled rotors, high performance pads in a number of 'flavors,' and we also manufacture our own DOT compliant SS brake lines.

 

It sounds like the LGT is having some issues on the brakes, so we should be able to help out. Also, I'll be spending more time on these forums, so I should be able to answer tech questions / problems, etc.

 

Also, I've seen a lot of talk about 'warped rotors' in the short time I've been visiting this forum. Please check out our tech articles to learn more about this issue ( http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm ), and brakes in general: http://www.stoptech.com/technical/

 

Let me know if there are any questions.

Jeff Ritter

StopTech

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froggert Proficient

froggert

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anyone know why they stopped making superblue? seemed to be a really popular product among higher end brake fluids. fwiw, it turns yellowish when exposed to sunlight for extended periods of time. a couple of local guys are running in their bikes with clear lines and reservoirs and it's got a gummyworm effect.
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whoopwhoop Contributor

whoopwhoop

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Big Brake Kits

 

 

StopTech four wheel Big Brake Upgrade for the 2005 Subaru Legacy GT. The kit includes ST-40 4-piston front calipers painted red, black, or silver, ST-22 2-piston opposed billet rear calipers painted red, black, or silver, 7075-T6 billet aluminum caliper mounting brackets, 332x32mm slotted, floating, front AeroRotors, 328x28mm slotted, floating, rear AeroRotors, 7075-T6 billet aluminum AeroHats with directional standoffs, StopTech SS (DOT compliant) front and rear brake lines, Axxis Ultimate front brake pads, and Hawk HPS rear brake pads. Requires 17 inch or larger wheels, however not all 17 inch wheels will fit. Please check the wheel fitment chart for your car. Options: Drilled rotors - $100 per pair; Yellow or blue paint - $200 per pair of calipers and 30 day lead time. $4695.00 - Item No. 83-839-4623

 

 

Damn I think I only paid like 27k or 28k for the WHOLE CAR!!!!!!!! :(

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Xenonk Grand Master

Xenonk

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anyone know why they stopped making superblue? seemed to be a really popular product among higher end brake fluids. fwiw, it turns yellowish when exposed to sunlight for extended periods of time. a couple of local guys are running in their bikes with clear lines and reservoirs and it's got a gummyworm effect.

 

stupid color stains our lines :p

 

 

Keefe

Keefe
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Greg_STL Enthusiast

Greg_STL

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The rear stoptech kit is the expensive one. I'm thinking of getting the front kit and then just upgrading the rear lines, pads and getting the dba rotors. I figure that will give me a very good system for only about $2500.

 

Stoptech Front BBK = $1900

(Comes with calipers, rotors, lines, pads)

Rear Stoptech SS Lines = $180

DBA 4000 1-Piece Slotted Rear Rotors = $370

Hawk HPS rear pads = <$100

Fluid (TBD) = <$100

 

I am interested in the endless options but they are very difficult to figure out. They have brake kits that use your existing rotors and brake system kits that come with new rotors. Endless also seems to not have rear 2-pot kits at all and you basically have to STEP up to the 6pot racing front/4 pot racing rear if you want a balanced four wheel kit. I'd like to find out if they have a 4 pot brake kit that uses the existing front rotors. I could do lines and pads (ss-m?) all around, just the calipers in the front and wait to upgrade the rotors until later. It would not be as "good" but cashflow it might work easier. The endless calipers would look sweet with my zeals and volks.... But it would have to be less than $2500 or I'll just go with my Stoptech/DBA system above.

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JRittStopTech Apprentice

JRittStopTech

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at that price of $5k, I'll just spend the little bit more for an Endless Kit front and rear

 

Why exactly would you pay more for an Endless kit? What do you perceive as the benefits vs. our kit? Is it just physical size...bigger is better? Why would you want 14" rotors and 6 piston calipers instead of 13" rotors and 4/2 piston calipers?

When you're comparing BBK's, the additional mass of bigger calipers and rotors all the way around is overkill, and simply additional dead weight to drag around (if not needed). Short of looking good/cool, the goal is to only add enough heat capacity to handle your needs. In other words, if you can put a system on with four piston calipers and 13" rotors that will have enough heat capacity for whatever you throw at it, than anything more is needless rotational mass. Now, if you found out that you were running out of heat capacity with the 13" kit, then it would make sense to go bigger. On this platform however, you'd be hard pressed to do so.

 

Greg_STL is on to the hot ticket. This platform definitely doesn't NEED a 4 wheel upgrade (this also addresses LGT Chris' cost concerns). If the front system is designed properly, the rear is only going to give you more bling. On my personal 350Z that I track constantly, I'm only running a front only kit. Many of our customers do the same thing. We also have many pro race cars winning with our front only 13" kit. Here's a good example: http://stoptech.com/press_releases/grand-am_three_rivers.htm

They are running our standard 332mm front only kit...and they've won 4 endurance races this year on that setup. That car is extremely fast (400ish hp), and it's no featherweight either. I'm fairly certain most forum members wouldn't be able to put more strain on our system than these guys in that car. Again, the system they use is identical to the product we ship to all of our customers. We don't differentiate between race and street. Our BBK's are perfectly at home in either place. All you need to do is swap out your pads and you're ready for the track. :)

 

Leo,

Your existing lines wouldn't fit with out caliper most likely. Even the StopTech ones for the stock car vs. the BBK are different in most cases. They use different fittings.

 

I forgot to mention...our rear kit is indeed the expensive one. We primarily developed that 2 piston caliper with certain Speed World Challenge race cars in mind, and it's made entirely from billet aluminum (the front is squeeze forged). The 2-piston is extremely costly and time consuming to manufacture when compared to our front 4 piston....hence the higher retail price. It's also fairly low volume compared to our front 4-piston. We are working on bringing the cost down on the 2 piston though. :cool:

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Greg_STL Enthusiast

Greg_STL

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Why Endless? Mainly bling. I do not doubt that they are excellent calipers but the main reason would be bling, having something rare, JDM, something to go with my Zeal coilovers and Volk wheels. Price wise they do not really compete.

 

I'm also looking at the rotora, racing brake, ION AP kits as well. I'm pretty bad, I tend to put all the data I can find in a big spreadsheet even if I think I will eventually discount some of the options. Gather data - then decide.

 

Back to Stoptech. Do so see that Stoptech will be offering OEM-sized one-piece replacement rotors (slotted) for the Legacy GT? I know you offer stage 1 and 2 packages for the WRX that are lines, pads, OEM-sized rotor type packages.

 

Also, if you consider a front BBK a Stage 1 BBK and a four wheel option a stage 2 BBK kit, I could easily see a Stage 1.5 BBK kit that would be along the lines of what I described before (Front BBK, rear lines/pads/rotor, fluid). Stoptech sells everything already now, just not the rear rotor - hence my selection of the DBA rotor. Even if not an everyday item you offered for sale, it would make a good group buy... except wait a few months because I'm not going to be buying my brakes until spring!!

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jsalicru Mentor

jsalicru

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wow... 5k is a hard pill to swallow. Shoot, 2k is a hard pill to swallow if you ask me.
"some say, his arms are made of coiled adamantium fibers. And that he tops his cereal with nuts and bolts. All we know is, he's called the Jose."
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JRittStopTech Apprentice

JRittStopTech

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Why Endless? Mainly bling. I do not doubt that they are excellent calipers but the main reason would be bling, having something rare, JDM, something to go with my Zeal coilovers and Volk wheels. Price wise they do not really compete.

I hear you. Some people want something different or unique. I owned a 1998 Integra Type R with UK spec 10 spoke wheels for 3 years, so I know about having a unique/rare vehicle. :D The worst thing about rare however, is that everyone wants to steal it from you!:mad:

 

wow... 5k is a hard pill to swallow. Shoot, 2k is a hard pill to swallow if you ask me.

Again, it just depends on what you want from the car. For the average guy/girl that wants to take their LGT on a road course, you'd probably be hard pressed to put your $2,000 in a better place than the brakes. When taken on the track, the brakes are typically the first thing to fail on most street cars. OEM brakes are designed to stop a car quickly under a panic situation, or slow you down descending a mountain if necessary. In almost all cases, they are not designed to repeatedly slow the car from 120mph+ to 50mph in the span of a couple minutes (which is completely commone on a track). If you've ever run stock brakes at the track, chances are your day ended prematurely specifically for that reason. It's no fun to spend $300 for a track weekend, and then be sidelined because your brakes aren't up to the task. We see it happen all the time.

The typical upgrade path we preach is as follows:

1. Get some good race pads and brake fluid. High performance street or OEM pads have no business on the track. When their max temp threshold is exceeded, the crumble to bits, and deposit on your rotor in 'splotches.' Then you have a high spot on the rotor, and you feel a shake when you hit your stop pedal. This is what people perceive as a "warped rotor." Here's a good article on that phenomena: http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm

A race pad, while noisy and not having much bite when cold on the street, will come into its own when some heat is put into it on the track. It's higher max operating temperature (MOT) will withstand a constant thrashing in the brake zones. Good fluid will be less prone to boil, and your pedal will remain firm. We recommend Motul RBF600 for dual street/track use. Here's a good article on fluid:

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/brakefluid1a.htm

Another first step for better feel would be some stainless steel lines. Unless your rotors are worn past their minimum thickness, have an uneven pad deposit that you are unable to remove, or are cracked excessively, there's really no need to replace them (unless you want a bit more bite into the pad, for which slotted or drilled rotor are a good choice).

 

Now, you have your track pads swapped in, and your Motul in the system. You're ready for the track. You go out and do session 1. You're finding that you can make it about 3/4 of the way through without fading the brakes at all. What do you do?

2. One step would be to try a pad with a higher MOT, which may be better able to cope with the demands of the track you are running. Another option would be to install some duct work on the front of the car to get more cool air into the center opening of the rotor (annulus).

 

Okay, you decide to try another pad that has a higher MOT. You don't want to cut out your foglights and plumb ducting...so what to do?

 

Well, the issue is that your rotors don't seem to have enough mass or airflow to deal with the energy that you are putting into them during the repeated brake events. 3. You need either a bigger heat sink (larger rotor), and/or better airflow through the rotor to dissipate the heat that is being generated. This is the stage when a BBK comes into the picture for a track driver. The main function of a BBK is increase heat capacity. The main function is NOT to shorten stopping distances, which are solely limited by the traction provided by the choice of tire. As I mentioned in my previous posts however, you don't want to throw a gigantic rotor and caliper on your car that are larger and heavier than necessary. You only ever want enough that is practical to get the job done under the harshest conditions your car will face...nothing more.

 

Also, most BBK's come with a 2-piece rotor using an aluminum hat. Some (like our designs) use a fully floating hat, while others use a bolted on, or fixed hat. There are some critical differences between the two designs. Here they are illustrated: http://www.stoptech.com/faq/data/faq18.html A floating design allows the rotor to expand when it is heated up on the track, so the pad will stay in true contact with the rotor. On a fixed hat design, the rotor is unable to float, and the rotor "cones." Imagine a rotor lying flat on a table. If the rotor tried to expand in diameter like it would on the track, yet it was fixed to the hat, the outer edges would lift off the table. This is coning. Imagine your caliper in a fixed position, and the rotor coning...how do you think your pads would wear? They would be tapered and unevenly worn of course!

 

Okay, now you put your BBK on. Your new big rotors have a lot more mass to them, and they can store a lot more kinetic energy as it is converted to heat in brake zones. They should also have a superior vane design over a mass-produced stock rotor, which enables them to also flow significantly more air as they rotate. At this point, someone's thinking...okay, so all I need is bigger rotors on the front of my car, mated up to my stock calipers, right? No. This is a big no-no that a lot of people fall into to. Here's why...

 

There are three main factors that affect the amount of brake torque on a given axle. 1. Rotor diameter 2. Coefficient of friction of the pad material, and 3. piston diameter in the caliper. If you increase the rotor diameter on the front of your car, and all else is held equal (stock caliper and pad), you are increasing the brake torque on the front axle, and shifting brake bias to the front end of the car. Your rear brakes are no longer doing their "intended share" of work, and they're now along for the ride, rather than helping you stop at their most efficient level. This is why move-out brackets with stock calipers on a bigger rotor are generally a bad idea. Notice, I didn't say anything about the swept area of the pad having any impact on brake torque or bias...that's because they don't! A bigger surface area pad will have better wear characteristics with all else held equal...that's about it. That's why a 6 or 8 piston caliper will sometimes have longer wearing pads for endurance racing than a 4 piston setup. The pads will also cost nearly twice as much! Something to keep in mind.

 

So, you have your big, high flowing rotors, and the BBK comes with some snazzy 4 piston calipers. What advantage do they give? If the caliper piston sizing is chosen wisely/properly, than brake torque is not adversely affected by the bigger rotor. If we go to a larger diameter rotor on the front of the car as above, the brake torque on the front of the car goes up. Instead of putting a caliper on the rotor that equals the piston size of the stock piece, you put a caliper with smaller piston size on average. So, you increase brake torque with the bigger diameter rotor, then bring the brake torque back down to near stock levels by using smaller caliper pistons. The two offset eachother. Since most companies don't have the ability to custom size pistons for every single platform, this is a dillema. Then you dial it in with the friction for intended results. Well, a stock caliper is usually a slider design, with a piston on only one side. The caliper body slides when the brakes are applied. This take time, and wastes energy. A fixed caliper has pistons on both sides of the rotor. It's typically stiffer....much, much stiffer. The result is that it takes less time to do effective work. The nicest tactile benefit is that your brake pedal is a lot firmer, and gives more feedback. You can now tell exactly what the pads are doing on the rotors, and you can feel when your ABS is about to kick in, or if your wheels are about to lock up if you don't have ABS. Aftermarket fixed calipers usually have better cooling design, allow for easier pad changes without caliper removal, dissipate heat more quickly, have many more friction compound choices...the list goes on.

 

People generally look at brake upgrades as an afterthought to pumping gobs of power into their car. The reality is that brakes really are a critical part of the package. The more power you put into your car, the greater the velocity it can hit in a given distance, which tremendously increases the kinetic energy created, and the strain on the brakes. We generally recommend that people take a stepwise approach to their braking needs as outlined above. Some people find that they really do NEED a BBK for heat management reasons. Others simply love the pedal feel, ability to threshold brake, and the feedback that the system gives them. Another group just wants bling! It just depends on the person, the vehicle, and what that preson demands of the vehicle. For some people, spending $2000 on new software, a TMIC, and an exhaust makes sense. None of that stuff will allow your car to make it through a track session any more effectively if your brakes can't make it though. Many people try to fix the weakest link first. In most cases, this is the factory brakes.

 

Hopefully that makes sense.:)

 

Greg STL,

I'll have to see what the latest and greatest is on our parts list. We may be able to get rear rotors these days...not sure. I'll check when I'm back in the office this week.

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Xenonk Grand Master

Xenonk

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Why exactly would you pay more for an Endless kit? What do you perceive as the benefits vs. our kit? Is it just physical size...bigger is better? Why would you want 14" rotors and 6 piston calipers instead of 13" rotors and 4/2 piston calipers?

When you're comparing BBK's, the additional mass of bigger calipers and rotors all the way around is overkill, and simply additional dead weight to drag around (if not needed). Short of looking good/cool, the goal is to only add enough heat capacity to handle your needs. In other words, if you can put a system on with four piston calipers and 13" rotors that will have enough heat capacity for whatever you throw at it, than anything more is needless rotational mass. Now, if you found out that you were running out of heat capacity with the 13" kit, then it would make sense to go bigger. On this platform however, you'd be hard pressed to do so.

 

I changed my suspension to the point where the rear brakes are actually more effective than before (less head dive). So for me to go all around helps, especially for trail-braking (which I doubt anyone of you guys run that kind of driving line even in normal driving on the street, it's also a very popular drift-intended line around corners).

 

Number of pistons in design allows for more even pressure to the pads. Ever seen a 12-pot front race caliper? ;) Last thing you want from a large brake pad is uneven wear as the fluids try to do their best to make through all the chambers as parallel as possible. A larger caliper can also help in keeping the fluids from boiling (a good designed caliper can do that for you in the process).

 

Heat is the main concern, so to aid the cooling in that, you need larger surface areas, namely the brake pads could do that without going to a higher temp pad and run a smaller or stock pad (as there is a trade off with pads for those who are not use to running track pads on the street).. but to fit the larger pads, you need larger caliper to accomodate it, or larger rotor to allow heat to dissapate (as this is all elementry thinking).

 

Really, going to larger brakes means you are allowed to drive that much harder, but for those that dont track and just want a BBK for bling and show, it's a big disgrace to having a BBK with just normal street pads, it's not going to stop you any faster because 90% of us who just drive on the street don't even have MAX performance DOT-legal street tires to take advantage of the brakes (and the GT stock brakes can do a lot as it is). It's understandable if you're the kind of driver to take the car to the limits, but for those who don't and just want a BBK, well, you just made a fool out of yourself by buying something that you dont know how to use and defeat the purpose of the kit (sorry if I am being mean today, but that's how it is when I see guys with all-season tires with BBKs on street pads at meets and shows and the such).

 

 

Keefe

(currently on just just upgraded brake pads and brake fluid)

Keefe
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Xenonk Grand Master

Xenonk

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Yes, because I'm sure you've boiled over your super blue several times? :rolleyes:

 

 

I have in the past from back to back track days.. I didnt allow the car neutral out from acceleration to deceleration from the straights. It's not that hard to just run a few laps and start feeling the pedal sink down to the floor.. imagine the enduro races.. that's when you start buying Castrol SRF instead of Motul RBF600 (which are both higher in temps than ATE).

 

 

Keefe

Keefe
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jsalicru Mentor

jsalicru

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I changed my suspension to the point where the rear brakes are actually more effective than before (less head dive). So for me to go all around helps, especially for trail-braking (which I doubt anyone of you guys run that kind of driving line even in normal driving on the street, it's also a very popular drift-intended line around corners).

 

I experienced this with my STi on coilovers at the track, which was quite a surprise at first.

"some say, his arms are made of coiled adamantium fibers. And that he tops his cereal with nuts and bolts. All we know is, he's called the Jose."
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jsalicru Mentor

jsalicru

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JRitt: awesome post, very informative and it something that might even be considered for a sticky around here... However, the thing is... 95% of the gains that you mention can be had for <$2000 on the Legacy GT. The last 5% will come in with a more consistent pedal feel/modulation, etc. which is what Stoptech most likely provides over stock STi Brembo. But for 99% of performance oriented Legacy GT owners... this is not only overkill.. but it is something that they will not even notice.

 

Also, for the record... STi Brembos are more than adequate for open track sessions... Just take them out with some nice pads and fluid. Also, Stock LGT brakes are much better than most being that they are vented all around and of decent size up front.

"some say, his arms are made of coiled adamantium fibers. And that he tops his cereal with nuts and bolts. All we know is, he's called the Jose."
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