Drove 5EAT and 5MT Non-Limited GT Wagons

[gtguy]

Just talked to my dealer, who said that dual-zone is Limited only as far as he knows. What's interesting is that climate control comes from the factory, which makes it not possible for it to be port-installed, which makes seeing those non-Limiteds with the dual-zone REALLY weird. :lol: Further, he said that not every model gets the pressure monitoring system (good news...don't have to replace valve stems), and that the armrest extension will be available in July, but is a retrofit option, so no worries. Kevin

[SC GT]

[quote name='gtguy']Just talked to my dealer, who said that dual-zone is Limited only as far as he knows. What's interesting is that climate control comes from the factory, [b]which makes it not possible for it to be port-installed[/b], which makes seeing those non-Limiteds with the dual-zone REALLY weird. :lol: Further, he said that not every model gets the pressure monitoring system (good news...don't have to replace valve stems), and that the armrest extension will be available in July, but is a retrofit option, so no worries. Kevin[/quote] Are certain options still considered "port-installed" if the car is assembled in Indiana?

[gtguy]

[quote name='SC GT'][quote name='gtguy']Just talked to my dealer, who said that dual-zone is Limited only as far as he knows. What's interesting is that climate control comes from the factory, [b]which makes it not possible for it to be port-installed[/b], which makes seeing those non-Limiteds with the dual-zone REALLY weird. :lol: Further, he said that not every model gets the pressure monitoring system (good news...don't have to replace valve stems), and that the armrest extension will be available in July, but is a retrofit option, so no worries. Kevin[/quote] Are certain options still considered "port-installed" if the car is assembled in Indiana?[/quote] Good question. They still call the accessories "port-installed," at any rate, so who knows? Kevin

[Th3Franz]

I wish I could drive a 5MT right away after driving the 5EAT..

[SUBE555]

So Kevin, which models do the tire pressure system come/don't come on? Would rather not have it if I don't have to. Maybe there was a n00b at the factory putting auto climate control in all the GT's. :D

[GBY]

[quote name='SUBE555']Maybe there was a n00b at the factory putting auto climate control in all the GT's. :D[/quote] That's what I was thinking as well SUBE. *EDIT* They were/are probably as confused as us about which car was getting what....

[SUBE555]

I don't know which models all had them because I thought someone said both a GT and GT Ltd had the ACC. I dunno! *shrug*

[GBY]

I edited my post, I had said 2.5i's but meant GT's, got confused and deleted it :?

[gtguy]

[quote name='SUBE555']So Kevin, which models do the tire pressure system come/don't come on? Would rather not have it if I don't have to. Maybe there was a n00b at the factory putting auto climate control in all the GT's. :D[/quote] Non-limiteds, according to my dealer, do not have the pressure monitoring system. I'm with you. Now I can just swap wheels without having to worry about special valve stems, etc. Kevin

[racerdave]

Amen to that.

[SUBE555]

Sweet! Makes me a MUCH happier camper. :mrgreen:

[axis008]

[quote name='SUBE555']Maybe there was a n00b at the factory putting auto climate control in all the GT's. :D[/quote] "Haha, oops, I thought the STi engine went in there since they're basically the same thing!" :oops: That would be nice. Then we can have our own Legacy STI, complete with 6-speed manual and DCCD! But I'm happy with what we have already so I will not be one of the few waiting for it, regardless of it coming out or not. Also, isn't tire pressure monitoring supposed to implemented in all cars within the next few years? I don't see why Subaru isn't putting it in the non-Limited...

[Sub-attraction]

I browsed each of the models on subaru.com and the only models that show the tire pressure monitoring were the 3.0 Outback models (llbean, VDC and Sedan). Non of the Legacy models had this feature. I also found the following info on Cars101:

 

The new Subaru Tire Pressure Monitoring system is standard on the 2005 Outback LL Bean, VDC and 3.0R sedan.

It is not available on any other models.

 

A transmitter with a tire pressure sensor is located inside the tire air valve stem (see below).

 

The sensor contains a battery. Battery life is 10 years or 100,000 miles. When the battery fails the whole assembly must be replaced.

Each wheel sensor has an ID code.

 

How it works When the vehicle goes 7-20 MPH, a roll switch inside the sensor turns on and the the sensor starts to take measurements every 30 seconds and sends transmits the results once every minute.

 

When a low tire is detected or a failure occurs in the system a light in the low dashboard turns on.

 

When the vehicle stops moving for 15 minutes, the sensor enters 'sleep' or off mode to save battery life.

[je24]

This is the first chance I have had to reply to some of the questions in this post. Sorry in advance for the long post, but I guess I am a little long-winded. "Rubber-banding" effect - when I first got the WRX, this was discussed quite a bit on the nabisco site (used to be another name). I cannot recall everything, but I think the "grounding mod" was the solution proposed by a number of people. However, this was disputed by some, since part of the grounding mod process was to reset the ECU, which appeared to lessen the rubber-banding. Over time, when the ECU “learned” your driving again, the problem would come back. I personally did not try it, since the rubber-banding was not enough of a hindrance to cause me to speaker-wire my engine compartment (if you search a few sites I am sure you can get the details on the grounding mod). Others said it had to do with the AWD and differentials, since people have experienced it in other Subaru models. It was not easy to consistently reproduce so the dealer never got to experience it. As I mentioned, it is not overly aggravating to me, I was just surprised that it still occurred on a brand new model. Dual-zone listed as an option - when I test drove both cars I had my 9 and 5 year old with me, so I was limited to what I could do outside of the car (without having them loose in the parking lot to get run over! The test drive was easy since they were strapped in). The manual car had the option group with the dimming mirror and security upgrade, along with the cargo tray/mat and the crossbars (they were not installed but in a box in the back). I think the price was a little over $28K. I looked at the sticker of the 5EAT a little closer since my initial glance saw that the price was a little over $29K (and my thought was for $29K+ it should have leather and a sunroof - not cloth seats!). The 5EAT had the same options as the 5MT, so I do not believe the dual-zone climate control was listed as an option. I also did not look for any mention of a tire pressure warning system on the sticker. Manumatic opinions - my idea of a good manumatic is that it will not shift by itself when in manual mode, no matter what you do (except for coming to a complete stop) and that the shifts are quick. I previously liked the BMW Steptronic (I think that is what it is called) the best since it was the least likely to shift by itself in manual mode and the shifts were fairly quick. There were a few times when it did shift for itself (1-2 and 2-3). I drove the G35 Sedan (auto and 6MT actually) but not the coupe, and I believe the manumatic in the coupe is different than the sedan. The sedan version was not really a manumatic, but rather a highest-gear limiter. In other words, if you had it set for 3, it would shift by itself between 1 and 3 all it wanted, but would not go above 3. I was really confused when I first put it in manual mode and came to a stop in 3rd gear, where the dashboard gear display showed 3 (I would have thought it would downshift to 1). I asked the salesman why it did not downshift when stopped and he said that it did, but he had no explanation of why it still showed 3. After driving for a while I figured out what it was doing and later on one of the G35 forums I found the explanation of how it works. That is where I also found posts indicating that the manumatic in the coupe works more as a true gear selector. The other problem with the sedan was that the shifts took quite a long time, which was really annoying. Just as a side note, I thought the 6MT was okay, but once again did not feel as quick as my WRX (perception again???). My main issue was that the further the RPMs went above 4K, the worse the vibrations were through the pedals, shifter and I even believe the steering wheel. The other issue was that the stock sport suspension was waaaaaay to hard, at least for me. It did corner really flat though. In my other post I had mentioned that my reason for driving these cars was that I had enough of the problems with my WRX and wanted to get rid of it, but I must say that after driving away from the Infiniti dealer in my WRX, I had new-found appreciation for the performance and feel of it, which I think says a lot. Back to the manumatic, the reason I liked Subaru's the best was that it never shifted on its own (at least during my drive) and the shifts for the most part were fairly quick. First allotment - I expected I would have a number of problems with my car since it was a brand new model, but I think I had more than average. I think one thing going for the Legacy is that it has been out in other markets for a year, so the major issues should be worked out. This was not true of the WRX, where I believe it was a brand new model everywhere when we got it in the states. I have talked to a fair number of WRX and non-WRX Subaru owners, and most have not had many, if any, problems with their cars. Given the fact that I am planning on getting a Legacy soon (i.e., another first-year model), I guess I feel fairly comfortable that it will not have many problems. Auto vs. Manual - Dr. Zevil, I completely agree that the manual should be and most likely is faster than the auto. I recall seeing other posts somewhere mentioning that 1st gear in the auto was really short, so that may be a reason. Another thought is that in the gears the auto could be as fast or a little faster than the manual, but the 1-2 shift, being somewhat slower than a manual (from the time the shift starts to when the gear is fully engaged and the torque converter has the power fully back on), could account for the .5 to 1 second difference in the 0-60. I am really grasping here!!! Or it could be my perception since the car was really smooth. Like I mentioned there were a number of times in the 5MT I thought I was going a lot slower than I really was. I agree with racerdave that we really need an instrumented test of a manual. I think my biggest issue was my expectations. I really like the performance aspects of my WRX, and my only real issues with it are the lack of refinement (it gets old not being able to hold a conversation with your kids in the back seat) and the overall size, both the interior (from the back seat on - the driver's area is fine for me) and the wheelbase (the somewhat short wheelbase can make for a choppy ride at times). I am not a fan of no power below 3K and the body roll in the corners, but they are not as significant as the ones I just mentioned. I was thinking that the Legacy GT was going to be a much more refined WRX, with the same (if not more) power and the same (or better) handling. For the most part, my expectations were met or exceeded - I mean it is really an awesome car. I thought it was very quiet and that it handled very well. It was just that the power did not appear to what I thought it would be. I am hoping that is just my perception based on living with a WRX for three years, or that I really did not have a frame of reference to gauge the acceleration. My ideal frame of reference is driving the parkway when there is a fair amount of traffic, since in the WRX it is so easy to accelerate to a gap in traffic and you can really sense the acceleration as you pass other cars very quickly - my test drive was mostly on single lane back roads. I am going to try to get another test drive shortly and hopefully on a multi-lane road (if the 5MT is not sold - there were a number of people looking at it when I was there and I believe that was the first day it was available to drive). Jim

[gtguy]

Thanks for the info, Jim. Man, that was thorough! What's also interesting is that someone over on NASIOC posted that he had information that base GT wagons got the dual-zone, but not sedans. This would explain what you saw, as well. But who knows? I also wonder if the tranquility of the Legacy is what makes you think it isn't as fast as you believe it should be. I'm thinking of your comments that when you thought you were going 40-45 (referencing your WRX) it was more like 60-65 in the Leggy. The WRX is, after all, tuned to have that "here we gooooo" feeling to the boost curve. The Legacy is tuned to be more linear, from all that we have read. I know that my WRX is a much more direct car, so that when you're going fast, you know it. This is compared to an Audi S4, where at 100, you really don't have much idea that you're going that fast, except for the lighted gumballs and flashing lights in the rear view mirror. :lol: I don't, and I will say that I am happy about this, expect the Legacy to have any reference at all to the WRX. If it did, those entry level sport/luxury folks wouldn't look at the car. They don't want noise, and thrashing about. They want that quiet, seductive kind of speed. Sounds like the Legacy is that kind of a party. Kevin

[apexjapan]

I'll personally attest that the Legacy won't feel that fast - all that damping, reduction of NVH and attention towards refinement paid off. Several factors lessen the "ohmygod" acceleration feel: Reduction of brake dive/acceleration squat - a very good thing, but the reduction in movement lessens the physical cue that you are going/stopping fast. A softly sprung car with big power feels faster as your eyes start gazing at the sun over the hood under throttle (at noon...). Better engine mounts reduce vibrations from the engine - especially under throttle. Less of a feel that you are booting it. Smoother pick-up on the turbo, less lag, lower off vs. on boost moments - all keep it from having that kick in the hiney turbo lag wallop. Quiet exhaust system - there is not much of an aural feel to the speed. One of the reasons the NISMO 350Z felt way faster than stock was the mighty brooooooooooowm from the engine as you were going. All in all, the leggy suffers from too much refinement. :D Cheers, Paul Hansen

[mudd]

I was planning on getting a Outback XT Limited to replace my 02 Outback Sport. The main reason was because there is no power in the 2.5 165hp engine. Especially when trying to merge and pass. This usually is happening around 2000 - 2500 rpm. It gets dangerous because I pull out and have no power to accelerate so I have be careful for people coming up behind me. Now I'm reading that the xt has a deadspot below 3000. Does this mean I'm going to have the same problem? I read that the turbo kicks in at 3000 rpm. On my OBS, I'm at 3000 rpm when I'm doing 70mph. That isn't going to help me at lower speeds. Do I have this right? I hope I'm wrong. btw, I test drove an Audi A4 (I love the looks, but keep hearing about problems) 1.8T Cvt (I know, no comparison since it's fwd) and even though it's only 170 hp, the car really accelerates nice at low rpms because the 166ft/lbs of torque it at 1950 rpm. That is what I was hoping for in the Subaru XT.

[Drift Monkey]

I don't think you'll have any probolems merging on the freeway anymore. 250hp/250lb-ft tq will certainly put a smile on your face.

[mudd]

I know those are good numbers, I just worry about having enough power to pass and merge at lower speeds. Where RPM's are around 2000 -2500

[PPower]

Jim, thanks for all that info. One thing that I can add is that the WRX came to the US well after other countries. In Costa Rica, we got the bugeye in early October 2000, and Japan had it around June of 00 I believe. Maybe something to keep in mind.

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='mudd']I know those are good numbers, I just worry about having enough power to pass and merge at lower speeds. Where RPM's are around 2000 -2500[/quote] The real question is, do you have any experience with turbocharged vehicles? Turbo-lag is subjective to some extent.

[mudd]

I do have. I had an old 88 Saab 900T. I know there is lag with any turbo, my concern I guess, is the torque adequate at low rpms to pass and merge safely. The Audi was nice because 166 torque was at 1950 rpm according to specs. All I get from the XT is 250 at 3600 rpm. What is at say, 2000 rpm? I guess, I just need to drive it for myself and see. Just wanted see what other who've already driven it think. Thanks

[Drift Monkey]

Yes, the best solution would to be test driving either a Legacy 2.5GT or a FXT. Though the FXT has a shorter final drive mind you.

[GBY]

[quote name='mudd']I know those are good numbers, I just worry about having enough power to pass and merge at lower speeds. Where RPM's are around 2000 -2500[/quote] I can't give you definite torque figures but keep this in mind, even though the EJ20T (WRX) is generally considered a dog at 2500 rpm it's still producing more torque than the EJ25. I think it's fair to say the new Leg will be producing even more torque than the WRX at 2500.

[racerdave]

That would be my guess too. And the Edmunds article, which I just re-read, says lag is not an issue in the Legacys, just in the heaviest of the Outbacks where it is a little more noticible. Even then, they liked it.