TLS Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 TLS I agree a clutch should last longer, but you don't seem to be evaluating whether or not it was the way you/your wife drive the car. Despite your past experience, you need to actually evaluate whether or not it's personal use. Again, I wish you good luck...this isn't a strong clutch, but even a weak clutch may last a long time with proper use. Joe My Wife knows how to drive stick, and shows no examples of driving habits that would lead to this happening. Three of her brothers and her all learned stick on the same car, and she drove that car for years after...well over 200K and this was a Subaru and it was back in the 80's. I do wonder how often someone living in downtown San Fran would go through a clutch on a Legacy??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vet Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I'm with TLS on this one; 46k for a stock car driven responsibly is ridiculous. Sure, many drivers don't know how to use a clutch and 46k for them is not a surprise. But if you've had manuals before and gotten lots more miles out of the clutch why should this car be any different if it's built to the same standards? Of course Subaru has no way to know how you drive so they have to stick to the party line - it's a wear item. I'm at 55k and mine is starting to slip in high load situations and I'm not happy but I'm at stg II with w/i, putting out over 300wtq, so that's a lot to ask for a stock clutch. I know I need more than another oem clutch so I wouldn't even ask Subaru for any help. For TLS my main concern would be that the new clutch will only last another 46k. I would ask Subaru what they will do if the new clutch fails as quickly as the original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbssubaru Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I do know one thing. Another Subaru will NEVER be in my garage ever again. And when people ask how we like it, they will hear all about the troubles we've had. So silly to dismiss an entire line of great cars because your expectations of a wear item weren't met. I wouldn't expect the same life out of wear components on a Mustang GT vs. a base 4 or 6cyl Mustang. If you wanted low maintenance costs you should not have bought the high performance model. I know you would get longer clutch life out of a base model Legacy, the one I replaced on my 96 legacy 2.2 (120hp) went well over 100k miles and I only had to pull the tranny and replace the clutch at the same time because the throw-out bearing was noisy. As you go around bad mouthing Subarus in the future please make sure and qualify your blanket statement about "all your problems" , that it was just you thinking your clutch went out too early, and that many subaru owners didn't share your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLS Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 I wouldn't expect the same life out of wear components on a Mustang GT vs. a base 4 or 6cyl Mustang. If you wanted low maintenance costs you should not have bought the high performance model. I know you would get longer clutch life out of a base model Legacy, the one I replaced on my 96 legacy 2.2 (120hp) went well over 100k miles and I only had to pull the tranny and replace the clutch at the same time because the throw-out bearing was noisy. I would hope that and know that the drive line of a Mustang is different for the 4 & 6cylinder cars from the 5.0's. I am only expecting the same for every car sold on a new car dealers lot. No where did it state in any brochure or owners manual to expect higher wear due to an upgraded engine. Base Corvette, to a ZR1....upgraded driveline. Base 1/2 ton pickup, to a 1 Ton diesel....upgraded driveline. Base V6 Pontiac G8, to a 6.2L GXP....upgraded driveline. You get the point. So by saying I should have bought a plain non-Turbo Legacy so my clutch could last past 50K miles is kinda of a ridiculous statement. As you go around bad mouthing Subarus in the future please make sure and qualify your blanket statement about "all your problems" , that it was just you thinking your clutch went out too early, and that many subaru owners didn't share your opinion. The clutch is just the icing on the cake. I'm having the dealer print out a service record history. There were other issues, however this takes the cake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welby Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I do know one thing. Another Subaru will NEVER be in my garage ever again. And when people ask how we like it, they will hear all about the troubles we've had. If you don't want another Subaru, that's fine, but you're not doing anyone, including yourself, any favors by slamming an entire brand because of one issue you've had on a wear item. I can only assume that in 46,000 miles, the only problems you've ever had have been a pesky seat heater and the clutch. As I said, I would be really annoyed if my clutch went bad in 46k, but it happens. There are alot of variables involved in clutch life. You might be the greatest driver in the world, but though you think you're wife is good as well, she might slip the clutch more than you think (The LGT clutches have really crappy feel compared to any other car I've driven). Maybe she rests her foot on it and doesn't even realize it? Are you in stop and go traffic all the time? If so, you're using the clutch a tremendous amount more than someone whose commute is mostly highway. Live in hilly terrain or pull out on steep inclines all the time? All of these things contribute to more rapid wear and they're things that you just wouldn't think about. I live in hilly western PA, so I know that if my mirror image was in Fla. and drove the exact same way, Fla. me is going to have better luck with my clutch. These things sould be obvious. Really sorry about your problems, but don't be an anti-Subaru zealot to anyone you meet because of it. All cars have problems. Better make the next one an auto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 As I noted before - Subaru has had weak clutches for many years, that's one thing that you have to be aware of. If you know that you can adapt your driving style to it and it will survive. As for the "feel" in the clutch - I have driven vehicles with a lot crappier clutch feeling than the Subaru has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Clutches and the associated hydraulic systems are not built the same across different cars and manufacturers. I have personally witnessed smart people who have driven stick for years beating the crap out of a clutch because "that's the way they drove their honda civic and it lasted for 200k". I would stress again: you seem like a smart, knowledgable guy. When you get your car back, take it out together and evaluate how you are driving it to ENSURE there is nothing you can do better. Ensure no feet are being rested, that you aren't downshifting through the gears to each stop and letting the clutch match your RPMs, and that you aren't sitting on hills revving the car a bit and using the clutch to hold you still, etc. Again, I have seen people do all of the above on a economy toyota/honda/etc. and get 150k out of their clutch and then switch to a different manufacturer/make/model and burn out their clutch quickly. The LGT clutch is a weak point, without a doubt. But if you are driving carefully, there are also ALOT of members on here who drive conservatively and have gotten 80k+ out of their stock clutch. This is not just a case of "it's a crappy part that wears out early on everyone's car". You either had a defect that exacerbated clutch wear, or your driving style is partly to blame. I'm not saying it's the latter, I'm just recommending you don't assume it's NOT the latter based upon your extensive past experience. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLS Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 Got the car back earlier today. WOW!@! What a difference! Clutch now engages about 3" off the floor (it was always within the top 2" on the original), and it REALLY grabs now. Never felt like this before, thats for sure. Clutch feel is totally different. VERY low pedal effort, almost like something isn't hooked up. Feels great though. This is definitely a differently designed clutch. Very predictable grab point (unlike the original). I'm happy with it. With the amount of pedal left from grab to top, this thing should last forever....lets hope so. 30100AA810....DISK CP CLUT....173.88 30210AA550....COVER CP CLU....192.45 30502AA120....BRG CLUTCH R....46.96 44022AA180....GASKET....29.54 44022AA122....GASKET....26.00 44059AA010....2 BOLTS....13.32 44044AA010....2 SPRINGS....15.84 TOTAL PARTS.....................$497.99 REPLACED CLUTCH ASSEMBLY RESURFACED FLYWHEEL LABOR.....8 UNITS.....TOTAL.....$712.00 TOTAL FOR JOB........$1209.00 plus tax. Are the above part numbers for a new and improved clutch? This cars' clutch NEVER felt like it does now. Owner of dealership was there when we picked up. (he rung us up) I mentioned our displeasure with the fact we are replacing a clutch at 46K miles. He found that hard to believe at 46K. He wants me to contact his Service Manager on Monday as he will be discussing this with him. Looks like he may be willing to work with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackfang Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 I'd be more worried that the flywheel was resurface when they are not supposed to be. [SIZE=1][URL="http://public.fotki.com/blackfang/"]Pics[/URL] [B]08 KawasakiZZR 600- exhaust and other mods 98 Camaro Z/28 HT- some mods......street/strip car 07 Legacy 2.5i- SPT exhaust...daily driver[/B][/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLS Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 I'd be more worried that the flywheel was resurface when they are not supposed to be. No? Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oog61 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Can't they look at the old clutch and get an idea of why it failed? Isn't it possible to trash a clutch with one really hard launch, even accidentally? As touchy as these clutches are, it's not hard to stress one on a steep hill, for example. Is it possible that one of you inflicted some abuse and didn't fess up? Wives are famous for this. Maybe she let her boyfriend drive it. Just kidding. Maybe if that dealership manager is in a mood to work something out, perhaps he could find a way for you to purchase an extended warranty retroactively, one that would cover the clutch. That would probably cost you about the same as the clutch replacement but at least you would have the added protection if something else goes wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Are the above part numbers for a new and improved clutch? This cars' clutch NEVER felt like it does now. I can't tell if it was a new improved clutch, but if it wasn't then there must have been some problem with the old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLS Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 I can't tell if it was a new improved clutch, but if it wasn't then there must have been some problem with the old. Absolutely. If this is the same clutch as the original, there was something wrong from the day of delivery with the original one. Totally different pedal effort. (way lighter) Totally different grab point. (way deeper toward the firewall) Totally different grab feel. (Very grabby, but this could soften with break-in) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSeraphim Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 This is a little off topic but I noticed last night that if I put the pedal to the floor when I'm in 5th gear at 3k rpms the clutch slips. This doesn't happen in 1-4 that I'm aware of. My car is only at Stage I right now, so I doubt that would be enough power to prompt any slippage on a stock clutch. So I would guess that much clutch is nearing the end of it's life around 41k miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackfang Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Can't they look at the old clutch and get an idea of why it failed? Isn't it possible to trash a clutch with one really hard launch, even accidentally? It all depends. You can look at the clutch components and the signs show the story. However, there has to be honesty on the owners end. I have seen 2 destroyed clutches that failed under 8,000 miles. Both had signs of abuse(flywheel was grooved badly, clutch disc shredded and the center portion dark blue due to the heat, and SOA covered them. Granted the owners had a different story. It is possibly to destroy a clutch with less than 1 mile on it. [SIZE=1][URL="http://public.fotki.com/blackfang/"]Pics[/URL] [B]08 KawasakiZZR 600- exhaust and other mods 98 Camaro Z/28 HT- some mods......street/strip car 07 Legacy 2.5i- SPT exhaust...daily driver[/B][/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehsnils Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Only obvious thing would be if there was bad riveting, broken springs or maybe some other obviously incorrectness with the clutch that caused it to behave incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeFromPA Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 TLS - To answer an earlier question: Your flywheel SHOULD NOT have been re-surfaced. The stock Legacy GT has a dual-mass flywheel. This design should not be re-surfaced like a single-mass flywheel would be. Dual-mass flywheels should be replaced. I do not know the engineering reasons why...I have heard one or two people get them lightly re-surfaced without a problem. But 99% of the time, I've read/been told that dual-mass flywheels are replacement-only parts. Might want to look into that. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingray1967 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 You got off easy, the labor on your repair was only $89. Labor here in the Twin Cities at Subaru dealers is $110. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackfang Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 TLS - To answer an earlier question: Your flywheel SHOULD NOT have been re-surfaced. The stock Legacy GT has a dual-mass flywheel. This design should not be re-surfaced like a single-mass flywheel would be. Dual-mass flywheels should be replaced. I do not know the engineering reasons why...I have heard one or two people get them lightly re-surfaced without a problem. But 99% of the time, I've read/been told that dual-mass flywheels are replacement-only parts. Might want to look into that. Joe Yep. There are reasons why they don't recommend it. [SIZE=1][URL="http://public.fotki.com/blackfang/"]Pics[/URL] [B]08 KawasakiZZR 600- exhaust and other mods 98 Camaro Z/28 HT- some mods......street/strip car 07 Legacy 2.5i- SPT exhaust...daily driver[/B][/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLS Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 This is a little off topic but I noticed last night that if I put the pedal to the floor when I'm in 5th gear at 3k rpms the clutch slips. This doesn't happen in 1-4 that I'm aware of. My car is only at Stage I right now, so I doubt that would be enough power to prompt any slippage on a stock clutch. So I would guess that much clutch is nearing the end of it's life around 41k miles. Exactly what we experienced, only ours may have been a bit further along and just didn't know it. I tried to merge onto the turnpike in 4th and I have been real busy with plowing/salting our little snows here, haven't had a chance to sit down with the wife and draft up a decent letter yet. Still have a burning gear oil smell. By the smell of it it must have been all over the exhaust. I don't see any drips, and with the snow, haven't driven it enough to check if it's still doing it. Would there have been any reason for gear oil to be spilled in this operation? Didn't see it listed as a charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansGT Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 just some quick google searches. resurface seems to be a no-no. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080307232249AANWmWe http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/bf100372.htm http://www.autocarepronews.com/default.aspx?type=art&id=83015& Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenc544 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Would there have been any reason for gear oil to be spilled in this operation? Didn't see it listed as a charge. They probably dripped some fluid on the exhaust when they were bleeding the clutch. The smell should go away after it burns off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackfang Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 IIRC, Subaru doesn't recommend any of their flywheels be resurfaced. [SIZE=1][URL="http://public.fotki.com/blackfang/"]Pics[/URL] [B]08 KawasakiZZR 600- exhaust and other mods 98 Camaro Z/28 HT- some mods......street/strip car 07 Legacy 2.5i- SPT exhaust...daily driver[/B][/SIZE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitestar Pilot Posted January 20, 2009 Share Posted January 20, 2009 This thread makes me sad. My Legacy has just been sold. It had 40,000 plus miles on it, and the clutch engaged way at the top, very unusual, but never slipped on me. I'm also sad to say, I'm glad its sold. Mixed emotions about it. $1300 for a clutch would have really ticked me off. Back in the summer of '04, when I bought her, this Legacy GT 5MT was one of the hottest sedans on the market for the cash. Not so much now, with the G37's and Pontiac G8's running around. The 6-speed Accord V6's have also seen performance increases since this time. Build something cutting edge again Subaru, and I will be back... someday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansGT Posted January 22, 2009 Share Posted January 22, 2009 Back in the summer of '04, when I bought her, this Legacy GT 5MT was one of the hottest sedans on the market for the cash. Not so much now, with the G37's and Pontiac G8's running around. The 6-speed Accord V6's have also seen performance increases since this time. Build something cutting edge again Subaru, and I will be back... someday! ^ They are in their minds (Subaru). Car designs usually are not updated for 4-6 years. The current LGT is going on 6 years (counting JDM release) now and 2010 brings the new model. I believe the prior Accord came out in '03? And recently refreshed in '07? So you are seeing overlap. I think the new LGT will bring many features and performance that we see in the mainstream today. But what it will still offer over Honda, the G35/37 and the Pontiac is AWD. Yes you can get it in a G, but look at the price difference in vehicles. Lets wait and see what hits the show room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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