joedirt1 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Can I just upgrade my fuel pump without doing the injectors. I have a stage II turbo, but have been told fuel and my stock TMIC are holding me back. I really do not want to spend the $$ on injectors and was wondering of the EVO pump would be a good upgrade to get more boost. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Do you mean you are Stage II with the stock turbo ? If so, the stock fuel pump and injectors will be fine. Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joedirt1 Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 No, I have the Legacy Stage 2 Upgrade - Monster Ported, Black Xtreme coated turbine housing, 18G compressor wheel, grey ceramic coated compressor housing, 8cm turbine housing. I am at 245hp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsme Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 We have tried it the EVO pump is not a good upgrade. It's about the same as the stock pump so don't waste your money. You should run bigger injectors. Infamous1 max out his injector(95%+ IDC) with just a Vf-39. I have the walbro 255 High pressure fuel pump with my 20g 2.4inlet 7cm /EWG setup and 830 modd stock injectors. I'm getting about 70%IDC. I'm hitting 20.5 psi target boost @3300 rpms and holding 19.5 psi at 7000rpms and getting about 340hp on 91 cali pump gas at 10.8 afr. The top end is where the injector and the pump really help. I hit as high as 4.84 volt in datalogs. That is alot of air moving and you need to supply enough fuel because we all know. If you go lean you can damage your engine. Racer X FMIC for '05-'09 LGTs, '08+ WRX and '10+ LGT,'14+ FXT, and '15+ WRX TMIC Racerxengineering.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I read on this very board lots of times that it is OK to run your injectors well over 100%, that the IDC is just a number Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsme Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I read on this very board lots of times that it is OK to run your injectors well over 100%, that the IDC is just a number It's always better to be safe then sorry. Plus I still have room to run e85;) Racer X FMIC for '05-'09 LGTs, '08+ WRX and '10+ LGT,'14+ FXT, and '15+ WRX TMIC Racerxengineering.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 You will run out of Stock Injector before Stock Fuel pump... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joedirt1 Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Itsme, not to be pushy but how much $$ do you have in your fuel system. It sounds like you got a very nice set up. I feel I am at the stage where I have to put in a lot of money for any gains. Fuel/TMIC are the only next step for increased hp; and doing them alone seems like there is not the max benefit from both and would require two tunes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Go with the Walbro or AVO, it might give you a bit more fuel up top. A boost-a-pump will help as well, then you will be left with the decision to change out the injectors or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I read on this very board lots of times that it is OK to run your injectors well over 100%, that the IDC is just a number Yeah been there done that, strange enough it didn't work for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsme Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I got my injectors for $275 cleaned and flow tested on nasioc.com and I modd my fuel pump and added a 255lph high pressure walbro pump. The price for the walbro is from $80 to $100 shipped. I may have a extra modd LGT fuel pump. Racer X FMIC for '05-'09 LGTs, '08+ WRX and '10+ LGT,'14+ FXT, and '15+ WRX TMIC Racerxengineering.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caramall2 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Not to hijack, but while you're on the topic....if I run out of time to install my AVO fuel pump before my AVO380 goes in, can I just install and tune my DW740 injectors without it, and then later install the pump? (I realize that at some point (maybe not with that turbo) the pump would run out of juice for the DW injectors.) Joe, I've heard that too...injectors will run out of steam before stock fuel pump will. Some good explainations if you search as to why you can run injectors over 100% (basically it's something like they never quite close once they're over 100%...I can't quite remember). Still, once you start playing, it gives me a bit of a warm fuzzy to be under the 100% level, but I'm certainly not smart on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsme Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 yes, you can. We found with vf39 modd 820 injectors and stock fuel pump the engine would start to run lean at about 5500 to 6000 rpms. So we had to start tapering boost from there to redline. With my setup I run a pretty steady 10.8 (no higher the 11.01) all the way to 7k running 19.5psi. At that point I'm at 4.84 v maf reading with a k&n typhoon (our maf max out at 5v) that's alot of air moving. We do alot of datalogging and we ran ur own test because we didn't want to install the walbro. We tried ever combo. QUOTE=caramall2;2235562]Not to hijack, but while you're on the topic....if I run out of time to install my AVO fuel pump before my AVO380 goes in, can I just install and tune my DW740 injectors without it, and then later install the pump? (I realize that at some point (maybe not with that turbo) the pump would run out of juice for the DW injectors.) Joe, I've heard that too...injectors will run out of steam before stock fuel pump will. Some good explainations if you search as to why you can run injectors over 100% (basically it's something like they never quite close once they're over 100%...I can't quite remember). Still, once you start playing, it gives me a bit of a warm fuzzy to be under the 100% level, but I'm certainly not smart on it. Racer X FMIC for '05-'09 LGTs, '08+ WRX and '10+ LGT,'14+ FXT, and '15+ WRX TMIC Racerxengineering.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 yes, you can. We found with vf39 modd 820 injectors and stock fuel pump the engine would start to run lean at about 5500 to 6000 rpms. Actually it wasn't any particular rpm just the upper range (+5k). It never ran lean it was just horribly inconsistant (now enough pressure), it would hit target at times while fluctuating at others. On the larger 20g it pretty much leaned out at everything above 4K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caramall2 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Thanks guys. What was the airflow (g/s) that you were leaning out at? (Sorry, I know you can convert from volts, I'd just need to dig it up.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad023 Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 itsme where did you get a fuel pump for $80 shipped i need one was just about to pay 299 for an avo 245lph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infamous1 Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 itsme where did you get a fuel pump for $80 shipped i need one was just about to pay 299 for an avo 245lph I have a pre-installed unit for $200+ core charge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
testes1010 Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 itsme where did you get a fuel pump for $80 shipped Most Walbro's are ~$80 shipped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underpowerd Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 you can find complete housings on ebay every now & then, as well. picked up a pristene one out of a front-end wreck for $80 that, with the above would put you at >$200 and near zero downtime for a 255lph unit, and your unmolested stocker resting comfy on the shelf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad023 Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 talked to mike from tuning alliance going to get it from him when i have the car tuned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caramall2 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Another quick question on an old thread...will my settings (latency, scalar, etc.) be way off if I tune with a stock pump & DW 740cc, then put in the AVO pump later? I'm thinking yes. Does the AVO change both flow and delivery pressure? (E.g. if pressure is more, than I'm sure I'll be off a good bit when I switch to the AVO pump.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
testes1010 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Another quick question on an old thread...will my settings (latency, scalar, etc.) be way off if I tune with a stock pump & DW 740cc, then put in the AVO pump later? I'm thinking yes. Does the AVO change both flow and delivery pressure? (E.g. if pressure is more, than I'm sure I'll be off a good bit when I switch to the AVO pump.) the AVO supplied fuel pressure will only change at the point to stock fuel pump wasn't supplying the 'regulated' pressure of the fuel pressure regulator which is typically only at the very topend of the RPM range. The ECU will adjust the fuel corrections to hit target AFR. If you changed the base fuel pressure via aftermarket FPR, you would have to change latencies, possibly scalar as well as the Tip-in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caramall2 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Thanks much. Didn't realize that was the way it worked (pressure regulator). So basically, stock and AVO will be the same until the stock maxes out it's flow capacity (if you have a setup that pushes beyond the stock fuel pump capacity) and starts dropping off. I think I'd probably be ok with my 740cc injectors and AVO 380, but I'll probably change out the pump to be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleBlueGT Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Thanks much. Didn't realize that was the way it worked (pressure regulator). So basically, stock and AVO will be the same until the stock maxes out it's flow capacity (if you have a setup that pushes beyond the stock fuel pump capacity) and starts dropping off. I think I'd probably be ok with my 740cc injectors and AVO 380, but I'll probably change out the pump to be safe. On your AVO380 in the cold months you will likely be flowing 600 cc/min / injector, or 2400 cc/min total, maybe 625 (2500 ccmin), but I doubt it 2400 cc/min = 144 lph 2500 cc/min = 150 lph Stock pump (according to Rao's post) 155 lph at 12v at 43.5 psi. Since you are never gonna be less then 12v unless you do WOT runs w/ no alternator. According to the numbers you should probably be OK with the OEM pump, I not 100% sure though, so I would personally log AFR (WBO2) and fuel pressure as you start turning up the boost. Full tune of 68HTA, KSTech 73 MAF, Racer X FMIC and ID1000s................by the DataLog Mafia!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
testes1010 Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 600 cc/min / injector, or 2400 cc/min total, maybe 625 (2500 ccmin), but I doubt it 2400 cc/min = 144 lph 2500 cc/min = 150 lph Stock pump (according to Rao's post) 155 lph at 12v at 43.5 psi. Something I'm not sure if you or Rao are taking into account is 'lets say' at max IDC%(which should occur near peak hp/engine flow) the AVO380 is running 20psi. The stock FPR is attempting to regulate a fuel pressure of 63.5psi(base+boost psi 1:1 regulator) which the stock fuel pump(w/ large flowing injectors) could not maintain at peak hp which would cause the the fuel to lean out until the fuel trims corrected the lean condition. By that time it may be too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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