FWD Impreza 1.5L

[CTlegacy06]

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/05/rumormill-subaru-considering-fwd-impreza-for-europe-turbocharg/

Autoweek.nl is spreading a rumor that Subaru is considering offering a two-wheel-drive version of the Impreza in Europe in an attempt to offer a budget alternative to the Mazda3 and Toyota Corolla. The entry-level Impreza would make use of the 107 hp, 1.5-liter boxer four-cylinder and possibly the new 150 hp diesel engine, putting fuel economy above all else. There's also talk of a turbocharged version of the 1.5-liter mill that would slot in between the naturally aspirated variant and Subaru's turbocharged 2.5-liter.

 

Although Subaru has offered FWD versions of its models in the past, its recent raison d'être of being the all-wheel-drive automaker would be harmed if a FWD variant was added to its lineup. That's why we doubt it will come to fruition and that we'll never seen a FWD Subaru in the States. A rear-wheel-drive Subaru on the other hand...

Wouldn't Subaru need configurations like this in America to help counter the new upcoming CAFE standards? Times are tough for the auto industry and going against years of AWD-only advertising may be necessary for Subaru to survive. Or else they will probably come with a guzzler tax premium or perhaps merge with Toyota in a way that Corollas and Camrys would balance out Subaru's poorer mpg.

 

Right now I'm averaging 18-19mpg (ofcourse its winter fuel mix's fault and mostly city/traffic driving) but I'm considering picking up a more fuel efficient daily driver for days that are rainy/snowy and AWD isn't "necessary."

[IwannaSportSedan]

Haven't they had the stripped down 1.5 2WD model in europe already?

 

AWD is not THAT much of an efficiency hawg, that it will make or break a car on fuel mileage. The engines can be de-powered, upgraded to DFI, HCCI, Stratified Ignition, Diesel, etc... to make them more efficient, at some great costs... But AWD is not the deal breaker. And some of us still want/demand that feature.

 

And some of it is just MORONIC over-regulation based on false political premises, that seems to operate on the basis that efficiency is just hanging there, ready to be plucked, and these darn capitalists don't take advantage for some reason. If efficiency were to be had, it would be. That is why companies like Porsche have added DFI to their boxers this year, for more power and more efficiency. It could be tuned for even more efficiency at detriment of power. But that is not what people want to pay for.

 

Subaru is surviving, and nigh on thriving, while other companies are nose-diving. AWD is one of the reasons. It adds VALUE.

 

In Connecticut, I would figure you would get snow, and see the real benefit of AWD in slick driving conditions. I sure love it here in Iowa. And my 300hp Stage 2 Legacy GT gets better than 22 combined MPG, with a bit more emphasis on highway than in town. Just fine by me for the performance that I get, which I paid for. Which I traveled to your neck of the woods just to get a hold of...

 

It isn't your 2.5i's fault that the government is stupid enough to mandate higher fuel efficiency standards, and simulaneously attacks fuel grade regulations for 'winter' fuel, which grenades efficiency. They also mandate other things, stupid and not, that add costs, and prevent Subaru from putting their money into truly beneficial R&D.

 

When the gub'ment shows signs of growing a functioning BRAIN between them, I would start maybe thinking a slight bit about considering possibly listening to what they might have to say on the matter. And I will still do what I deem to be best and most responsible for me.

 

If a 2wd efficiency car is what you deem best for you, great! I don't hold that against you one bit, and commend you for evaluating your needs responsibly. I resent the hell out of the government for meddling in either of our choices, through political influence over market forces.

[CTlegacy06]

Well ofcourse I know the benefits of using AWD in the winter especially but I'm saying for the days that are clear I'll probably get a SECOND vehicle (say honda civic for example) for the fuel economy especially when gas spikes up $4.00+/gallon. I'll be keeping the legacy for a while (especially since I have extended warranty).

 

Although Subaru is beating the average automaker by maintaining sales I don't think this will last long if they don't offer more fuel efficient models (that ofcourse will sacrifice performance).

 

While other automakers are boasting about direct injected turbos, cylinder deactivation, adding more gears to transmission and dual-clutch transmissions I hear nothing about what Subaru will be doing with its future model's powertrains. Except for the prospect of a diesel, though I really don't think that will benefit a majority of people looking to buy gasoline engines since diesel's cost negates its efficiency benefits.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Granted, but we haven't even seen much in terms of leakage for the '10 Legacy yet, and it will be shown in a few weeks.

 

Subaru keeps secrets VERY well, amazingly.

 

They did show the B5-TPH a couple of years ago, and the turbo diesel boxer is coming on the scene for production models.

 

But in terms of skunkworks, Subaru/FHI plays it VERY close to the vest.

[Jacks GT]

http://www.subaru.co.uk/Subaru_co_uk/ViewMenu.qed?menuid=M0M0M8 From what i can see they're all AWD but i didnt look very closely, got things to do

[CTlegacy06]

http://www.subaru.co.uk/Subaru_co_uk/ViewMenu.qed?menuid=M0M0M8 From what i can see they're all AWD but i didnt look very closely, got things to do

The 1.5L in UK gets 29urban/45extraurban or 24city/37highway with AWD. Ofcourse the US probably has a different standard of testing mpg than the UK but those seem like decent numbers especially the highway figure.

Subaru has some smaller engines in other markets that may become viable soon in the US when (probably 1-2yrs) gas jumps back up following the economic recovery.

[Jacks GT]

 

Subaru keeps secrets VERY well, .

 

 

Can you explain how? Ferrari can't do it, neither can BMW or porsche, audi, mercedes, toyota, ford, dodge, chevy, lamborghini i can keep going! How are subaru so good at this???

[naimouasta]

^^^ because no one cares really about subaru? lol jk.

[Jacks GT]

Vinny cares

 

<<would you mess with that? I think not!!

[f1anatic]

H

AWD is not THAT much of an efficiency hawg, that it will make or break a car on fuel mileage.

 

You've gotta be joking. Just the thought that we have 20-25% driveline loss compared to something like 10-12% for RWD Bimmers should make you think. Let alone the added weight.

[IwannaSportSedan]

50% more of a little drivetrain loss that still leaves at least 75% available for propulsion.... or at least 50% more motive traction surface, from 25-50% to at least 75-100% with two or three limited slip differentials. Gee, I wonder...

 

I suppose you hate big brakes, too, for the unsprung weight penalty. Wouldn't we just get rid of rear brakes, and save that unsprung weight? We don't need it for better deceleration or better control, or anything like that... the car will stop eventually on just fronts, or undersized brakes all around.

 

Sometimes you make an overall systematic compromise for the better of the whole package, but still maintain a good balance. And I am not saying that every car needs AWD, but I did say above, that there are ways to improve efficiency without giving up AWD traction and capability if you do want it.

 

A FWD impreza with a weak engine is just going to be another ugly version of something like a base ugly toyota matrix, or Mazda 3. Why would subaru want to do what everyone else has already done? AWD is what makes Impreza stand out in that way. Efficiency can be had elsewhere, and the traction capability maintained.

 

The question is, is the expense for reaping that other efficiency more or less than the lost sales due to removing the AWD selling point, and having customers just buy the other brands that already do FWD, and diluting a somewhat hard-earned brand identity for AWD vehicles.

 

Oh... and how many Bimmers OUTWEIGH the Legacy, let alone Impreza? Almost all of them above the 1 series and the Mini, and 1 series might also.

 

You don't see BMW worried about X-drive AWD, or any other reason that the X6, and other cars they make look as big as a house, and twice as ugly.

[f1anatic]

A FWD impreza with a weak engine is just going to be another ugly version of something like a base ugly toyota matrix, or Mazda 3. Why would subaru want to do what everyone else has already done?

 

You get lost into details here. My friend, Subaru wants to make available an FWD car simply because with (minimum) retooling, they think can turn a profit by fighting with other cars in their niche. Just as others have invaded the AUDI/Subaru niche by offering AWD on their sedans.

[IwannaSportSedan]

It isn't an even game.

 

Subaru has 1% marketshare. Others encroaching with AWD cars is going to happen if anyone else offers it.

 

But Subaru is competing with EVERYONE out there if they ditch it.

 

They are complaining about possibly having to market a RWD 2+2 Joint-venture toyota coupe, that isn't AWD. And that is a market segment that is almost completely wide open.

 

Sorry, but why on earth would someone buy an ugly impreza FWD model, over a much more attractive, established Mazda3? Let alone the Yaris, Fit, Corrolla, Civic, Matrix/Vibe, Sentra, Focus, Cobalt/HHR, Kia, Hyundai, Suzuki, VW, Mini, and all the rest?

 

Subaru giving up their ace in hand in the econobox market is foolish at best, after working so hard to get that ace.

 

The economy car market is hardly a "niche". Offering AWD in that market, is. And Suzuki and others are starting to catch on, not the other way around.

 

Subaru is not going to make money with that, they will only lose sales.

 

People buy Subarus despite their looks, for their value. If that value diminishes compared to the competition, looks or price become more of a motivator. And other companies are less expensive, and/or better looking. How's that for details?

[CTlegacy06]

WE agree that subaru would be "diluting" its awd image if it made true econo-box imprezas but what else will Subaru do when the new CAFE comes into effect? If Subaru doesn't raise its overall mpg by offering econo-boxes then it will probably have to partner closer with Toyota to share r&d for hybrids/transmissions to improve mpg, meaning that in the future your Legacy will be just a AWD Camry under its sheet metal.

 

But what if Subaru gets it right, like Mini did and still is. Make a small car that is pseudo-luxury, handles great, gets great gas mileage out of a small boosted engine with a 6speed. It could be like a "baby" wrx/sti.

[SLegacy99]

You've gotta be joking. Just the thought that we have 20-25% driveline loss compared to something like 10-12% for RWD Bimmers should make you think. Let alone the added weight.

 

20-25%? I thought it was more like 18-20%, depending on transmission.

 

 

Anywho, I still think there is room in the American market for a 2.2L Impreza.

[IwannaSportSedan]

WE agree that subaru would be "diluting" its awd image if it made true econo-box imprezas but what else will Subaru do when the new CAFE comes into effect? If Subaru doesn't raise its overall mpg by offering econo-boxes then it will probably have to partner closer with Toyota to share r&d for hybrids/transmissions to improve mpg, meaning that in the future your Legacy will be just a AWD Camry under its sheet metal.

 

But what if Subaru gets it right, like Mini did and still is. Make a small car that is pseudo-luxury, handles great, gets great gas mileage out of a small boosted engine with a 6speed. It could be like a "baby" wrx/sti.

 

If they do something right, it will have to be somewhat unique. If they do cookie-cutter, they will lose to commodity automobile manufacturers.

 

That goes for Legacy != Camry, and Impreza != Matrix. If they lose their cool, they lose everything.

 

That is why maintstreaming Subaru offerings is a hard thing to do. Mainstream is already established, and the people who have bought subaru have bought something that isn't mainstream, and for a reason.

[ehsnils]

You've gotta be joking. Just the thought that we have 20-25% driveline loss compared to something like 10-12% for RWD Bimmers should make you think. Let alone the added weight.

 

Then it's interesting that if you compare the Legacy to the Toyota Avensis with 2WD makes it about even. So the driveline loss can't be too bad.

 

Or is the Toyota that bad?

[Opie]

Subaru FWD since 1968...

 

Subaru AWD only since 1996...

 

It's not a real stretch, not everybody needs/wants AWD. As long as it's still available what's the problem.

 

Bring it now.

[Guest]

Subaru FWD since 1968...

 

Subaru AWD only since 1996...

 

It's not a real stretch, not everybody needs/wants AWD. As long as it's still available what's the problem.

 

Bring it now.

 

I agree AWD-only is a shortsighted strategy. But then I agree with IWSS that Subaru is foolish to attempt to become "mainstream" brand. FWD is mainstream crap, with a couple notable exceptions (Mini is probably the only fwd car I'd consider owning).

 

If they do they may fail, and go under. Unless they are absorbed by Toyota, but the question is what Toyota is gonna make of them. Sporty/niche division would make sense, but who knows what makes to Toyota's beancounters.

 

So cool/niche RWD Subaru? Hell yes.

 

FWD economy Subaru shitbox? Hell no!

[ehsnils]

And there is an AWD 1.5l Impreza already today. So the step to a FWD is short and essentially just a question of dropping the AWD components and skip the center diff.

 

It sure isn't a rocket. 107hp and 0 to 60 in 14.5 seconds.

 

If it's really worth it to gut out the AWD is a different question because it will make the car lose some identity. Even old grandma can benefit from AWD.

 

And Subaru AWD technology - well, it was present even earlier, and I think the permanent 4WD was provided already in 1987, and manual 4WD a lot earlier, so they have a long legacy when it comes to 4WD/AWD - a lot longer than since 1996.

[CTlegacy06]

But eventually the question will come down to:

What is worth more, the AWD image or the CAFE penalties (that will cut into profit margins or get passed down to the consumer)?

Other car makers have FWD-econoboxes to bring up their average mpgs but Subaru right now at best has 20/27. I wonder what its current average is today compared with the other companies?

[ehsnils]

The Impreza 1.5 AWD has 9.6l/100km / 6.3l/100km which translates to 24/37 mpg for city/highway (by the Euro driving scheme), and maybe you can improve that a bit by having it FWD only, but I suspect that it's not that much better.

 

And these figures means that it's better than a Ford Focus (which is closest comparable), but not as good as a Ford Fiesta. And they are both FWD.

 

Comparing it to a Toyota Corolla Verso it's about the same, and that's also FWD.

 

So I think that it does really good in the competition - even with AWD.

[CTlegacy06]

The Impreza 1.5 AWD has 9.6l/100km / 6.3l/100km which translates to 24/37 mpg for city/highway (by the Euro driving scheme), and maybe you can improve that a bit by having it FWD only, but I suspect that it's not that much better.

 

And these figures means that it's better than a Ford Focus (which is closest comparable), but not as good as a Ford Fiesta. And they are both FWD.

 

Comparing it to a Toyota Corolla Verso it's about the same, and that's also FWD.

 

So I think that it does really good in the competition IN EUROPE - even with AWD.

Fixed.

 

Now if Subaru would actually offer this overseas to us.

[ehsnils]

They have it in Japan too, so it's only the US that lacks it.

 

Time to kick SOA?

 

They also have an Impreza Anesis, which is a sedan: http://www.subaru.jp/impreza/anesis/

 

And they have both 2WD and AWD of the Impreza 1.5 in Japan:

http://www.bedug.com/pics/impreza.jpg

 

So if you want one - just bash SOA.

[CTlegacy06]

Personally I think in a 1.5L AWD configuration would be the only way i would consider an Impreza, its styling isnt that great and the 2.5i Legacy (maybe alittle heavier) gets the same gas mileage. A 2.5i Impreza and 2.5i Legacy is a powertrain overlap that cannibalizes eachother imo.