Which GM Brand Will Go?

[Jerboa113]

they dont need our help they're about to take our money by gunpoint.

 

they deserve nothing.. not my respect, not my purchase nothing.

[Whitestar Pilot]

Discussion on LS1.com says Pontiac is first on the list.

 

They have completely lost their brand, the Solstice/Saturn Sky, the best car in the line-up (the G8) is a Holden, and that G5/Cobalt--yuck.

 

With the Firebird gone and the GTO failed, it wouldn't be a stretch to phase it out.

 

Its a pitiful situation, but I think GM laid the groundwork for Pontiac's demise in '82 when they went with strictly corporate Chevy powerplants and killed Pontiac's last motor, the 301. They were going to put the 301 Turbo in the 3rd gen (Knight Rider style) Trans Am, and that would have been a hot ticket.

 

Terrible craftsmanship killed the Fiero... then in the 90's the AssTek... the horribly styled GTO (another Holden), the death of the F-body and ALL of its tradition and cult following... I can't understand why GM screwed Pontiac so bad, but I fear their time is about up.

[05GT Guru]

GM cut the f-body because noone was buying them. The mustang was out selling them by a shit ton. The whole 80s-1992 was just a waste for GM, there cars sucked, there trucks sucked, everything those years sucked hell the Grand National GNX was there fastest car, you know its bad when buick makes your fastest car, lol.

[Jerboa113]

i personally kind oflike the chevy truck from 86-87. I dont trust the 88-93 tho.

 

and 94s have paint problems.

 

so whats thsi mean for the g8 and the g8 gxp? gone? kinda sucks.. its a pretty nice car..

[CTlegacy06]

I can't believe why Saab's catch phrase now adays is still "Born from Jets", as if making jets some how translates into building superior cars... especially when these jet-cars are using GM platforms and engines..

[SLegacy99]

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif GM's European distributor of Cadillac, Corvette, and Hummer quits, slow sales

http://www.autonews.com/article/2008...812099988/1193

 

http://km77.com/00/cadillac/bls/wagon/gra/006.jpg

 

Kroymans to stop European Cadillac sales

 

Wim Oude Weernink

Automotive News Europe

December 9, 2008 14:27 CET

 

Kroymans Corporation will stop distributing General Motors' Cadillac, Corvette and Hummer brands in Europe next year, a Dutch newspaper reported today.

 

The Dutch dealer group has distributed the U.S. brands in EU markets for the past five years. But sales have been slow and Kroymans has revised downward ambitious its sales targets.

 

Frits Kroymans, the dealer group's owner, told the Dutch daily newspaper De Telegraaf that his company will stop Cadillac, Corvette and Hummer distribution at the end of 2009.

 

He said GM Europe will take over distribution of the brands.

 

Kroymans and Cadillac Europe were not available for comment today.

 

When it became GM's European distributor for the brands in 2003, Kroymans targeted 20,000 Cadillac sales in Europe by 2010. It later reduced the target to 10,000. In the first 10 months, Cadillac sold 2,173 cars in Europe.

 

Kroymans is restructuring its business to reduce costs.

 

The group likely will make a loss in 2008, new CEO Peter Cornelis told Automotive News Europe last week.

 

Last year, Kroymans had a net profit of 14.5 million euros on revenues of 2.08 billion euros. Kroymans is Europe's 12th largest independent retail group, according to the 2008 Automotive News Europe Guide to Europe's Biggest Dealers.

[Jerboa113]

huh.. cts wagon.. thats kinda cool.

[IwannaSportSedan]

That is actually a BTS wagon. Euro-only, IIRC. Smaller than CTS.

 

The CTS wagon is different.

http://photos.leftlanenews.com/photos/imageresizeronfly/phpThumb.php?src=/photos/content/may2008/cadillac-cts-sport-wagon-10.jpg&w=1024

[ehsnils]

Which makes it not much different from an Opel Vectra wagon:

http://www.opel.se/content_data/GME/019/common/080/vehicleimages/0JJ/03/gallery_800_01.jpg

[Jerboa113]

is there less of a wagon market over here in the states? I cant say I'd ride that but they look pretty nice.

[IwannaSportSedan]

WAY less of a wagon market, unfortunately.

 

hence the cancellation of the Legacy Wagon, and the lack of import of many other wagons.

 

Seems completely irrational to me, but evidently rational people are fewer and farther between than I thought.

[Jerboa113]

well.. the camry is one of the biggest selling cars in the country.... so maybe you're right.

[05GT Guru]

well.. the camry is one of the biggest selling cars in the country.... so maybe you're right.

 

A friend of mine in highschool who i hadnt seen in 4 years was at the grocery store. He used to be a big car guy like me, so i ask what you riding in now, his reply camry. A 21 year old with a 50k a year job(more than enough to live here) and no kids or girlfriend even, driving a camry. In highschool he had a 600hp 1974 chevy C-10. What a tool i thought

[CTlegacy06]

Ya the Hatch/Wagon market is MUCH larger in Europe. Due to the higher gas prices the people that would have probably opted for SUV's if they were born Americans instead go for the more fuel efficient Wagon. BMW/Mercedes/Ford wagons are a common sight on every road when I visit Italy.

[Jerboa113]

A friend of mine in highschool who i hadnt seen in 4 years was at the grocery store. He used to be a big car guy like me, so i ask what you riding in now, his reply camry. A 21 year old with a 50k a year job(more than enough to live here) and no kids or girlfriend even, driving a camry. In highschool he had a 600hp 1974 chevy C-10. What a tool i thought

 

where do you live? i thought that was good money but it turns out money doesn't go very far these days..

 

a 74 c10? if it were a 67 I'd be all :drool: or even a 71 or 72.

 

CT I think the american market is still suffering from a hangover caused by hideous failure station wagons from the 70s 80s and even the 90s caprice classic wagon.

 

that and the wagons we get are few and far between.

[05GT Guru]

I know a couple of guys who have some badass caprice classic wagons. We fit 9 people in one on the way up north and everyone had 1 bag aswell. Alot of space lol

[ehsnils]

Ya the Hatch/Wagon market is MUCH larger in Europe. Due to the higher gas prices the people that would have probably opted for SUV's if they were born Americans instead go for the more fuel efficient Wagon. BMW/Mercedes/Ford wagons are a common sight on every road when I visit Italy.

 

Not to mention that a wagon handles a lot better than a SUV while offering almost the same cargo volume. There are also vehicle taxes involved, which varies from country to country. In Italy it at least has been based on cylinder volume, which explains the amount of cars with relatively small engines.

[05GT Guru]

America has gas guzzler taxes aswell but it looks like soccer moms dont care. I have to say SUVs are useful for soem people but for most who own them, they are just a waste. I work with alot of older women here in the bank industry and a majority of them drive midsize or full SUVs all with V8s. I asked joanne ( she has a v8 mountaineer) the otherday if she offroads, or tows with it and she said no, i just like being high up. WTF, thank you for getting 10mpg city because you like being high up

[Jerboa113]

I have no problem with suvs personally.. I do have a problem with gas taxes but thats a political discussion.

 

I know theres a LOT of antipathy towards suvs and I understand it, but I do not judge the auto maker for making what people want.. I judge the people who get in these things and either haul ass or poke along... either way they're inmy way and need to get over.

[IwannaSportSedan]

It is more complex than just giving the consumer what they want.

 

The average consumer is also easily led by marketing.

 

There were tax advantages, and profit advantages to making SUVs on top of pickup truck bases, and charging more money for it.

 

At first, you could get a nicer equipped SUV than a car for that money, and once the public were sold on them, the SUVs got more expensive, and the cars fell behind, under stricter regulations, and lower profit margins.

 

The higher SUV profit margins also helped feed the UAW gluttony, and the Big 3's lazy product development and narrow business plans.

 

And they marketed SUVs. Easier to use, higher to sit in, more practical to haul things and people, roomier, more powerful, and safer.

 

And people bought the marketing, then bought the trucks, and liked it. Now they have gone to building SUVs on unibody chassis, more than ladder frames, but people are somewhat still sold on them, except for the gas mileage, which has come to the fore more recently, at least ten years after the surge in popularity of SUVs.

 

Ten years of marketing, and selling SUVs to the consumer. Ten years of somewhat too narrow a focus for the big 3, and destruction of most of the non-sedan, and non-econobox car market. Coupes and wagons have been largely decimated compared to the past, and sedans have gotten BORING, for the most part. Camry, Accord, Taurus, Impala. Bland as hell.

 

So customers do want SUVs. Just like the companies wanted them to want SUVs, and pay more margins for. The UAW wanted the companies to keep making SUVs, and making enough margins to pay exorbitant wages, benefits and pensions.

 

And 4$ gas, and a glut of credit that turned out to be TOO easy after all, have kicked the legs out from under the whole market. And we find ourself here.

[CTlegacy06]

So in other words with the case of Subaru when it started the Tribeca, they were trying to start up the same high profit margins as the others had established but by the time they started the gas was already on the rise. Thus the rest of Subaru's name sake and line up was somewhat saved by the decline of the SUV market and its Tribeca.

 

Honda and Toyota for example, although they make many sedans/econoboxes fell into the same SUV/Truck mindset as the Big 3, now that those markets are down they are suffering aswell.

 

Thus Subaru is one of the few makers to show an increase this year because they had less of a stack in the truck/suv market.

 

And so today apparently all those "high profit margins" from trucks and suvs have already been spent on who knows what and the Big 3 are begging to Congress and the American people after they are the ones to worsen are energy dependency crisis.

[IwannaSportSedan]

yep, you are correct.

 

Subaru was late to the party, and not so invested, and Subaru is benefiting from it's value image, and the inverse of the old phrase "the bigger they are, the harder they fall."

 

Honda, Toyota, Nissan (now canning the big trucks and SUVs, reportedly, and going to a Ram-based Titan, if chrysler tanks, they might just buy the Ram unit, or the whole company, who knows)

 

...All got in on the SUV game, but didn't abandon their car programs as much, and their car programs were brought over from other markets, where cars were still primary. The big three did neither. They kept their cars up overseas, and let their US cars languish, for the most part, but have been turning it around a bit lately. It is harder to rebuild, than to maintain, and they are late in the game now.

 

The imports are suffering, but they are not bleeding money, and insolvent, the way the Big 3 are. The asian imports will likely be able to weather this storm, rather than succumb to it, and small nimble companies, and companies that stick to their basic strengths, rather than panicking, will stay more stable.

 

That is no guarantee, though. If this economic problem is sustained, small companies have less of a resource cushion to sustain in lean times. Thin people starve to death faster, is a quite morbid analogy.

 

BTW, it seems that the big boys have spent their money on union benefits, more SUV development, bureaucratic game playing, and buying and selling other brands, or being bought and sold by other brands, like chrysler.

 

Daimler carried a lot of cash out of Chrysler, and left them with a whole lot of not much on the plate for new models, a few old models, and a few turkeys, like compass/patriot/caliber, commander, sebring/avenger, and no replacement for the actually somewhat popular Pacifica, and 300. Charger is half-hearted, and Challenger was their hail mary pass. Ram is good, Wrangler is good, but what else do they have to run with into the future?

 

Ford has been working on a turn around, and is probably in the more responsible position of the three, but hardly worth bragging rights, in that motley group. GM is trying, but still is mired by bureaucratic red tape, and big corporate culture, and is too heavy to be nimble enough to react when the market changes by the week. But if they shed brands and products, they are bound to alienate some people. And cutting things loose costs money too.

[CTlegacy06]

Well i hope they first alienate the people that decide it was actually reasonable to drive a Hummer/Yukon or big truck as their daily driver.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I suppose that is a matter of circumstance. A family of six or seven in the midwest, in a rural setting, might actually use a truck like that, daily. There are probably circumstances that make sense. But not everyone's circumstance makes sense that way.

 

But for one person commuting, yeah, it is a bit much, but that ultimately is a personal decision. I hope responsibility is taught, but by economic forces, not by government regulation, and artificial constraint.

 

The thing is, I wish I had a fun coupe that I could commute in, year round (AWD in the snow belt), with a hard roof (no convertibles to get knifed, cloth tops are cold in the winter, degrade in the summer heat, and hard top convertibles are needlessly heavy mechanisms for what I need.) and a manual transmission, with good power, so that I can enjoy my driving after a long day, and on the weekend.

 

Right now the Legacy does that pretty well. But a three door fastback has better aero, lighter weight, and better performance and efficiency for being lighter and sleeker. I don't need four doors to schlep myself to work. I do use four doors when relatives or friends come by... but that is pretty rare.

 

But who makes that car? The G37X is probably the closest, except for the fact that it is heavier than the Legacy, precludes all of the sport equipment of the G37S, and is expensive to use as a commuter.

 

The AWD Eclipse/Talon is long gone, as is the 2.5RS coupe. Even the SVX and 3000GT/Stealth are gone. Do I really want to use a 10+ year old car for a reliability-crucial commuter? I might get lucky and have a reliable one, but I could just as easily get a parts-horse, that requires all sorts of fiddling, and downtime.

 

What fits for some, doesn't fit for others, and that is why I rail when the prospect of Subaru losing even more of it's niche appeal, because it leaves more of the non-mainstream people like me out in the cold. Appliances sell, and there are lots of people who buy them, but there are also already a plethora of appliances available. Niche appealing cars like Legacy are getting quite scarce.

[CTlegacy06]

Probably a recent VW R32 would fit your wish list best. But its sad how in America there are so many sizes and variants of SUV's but only a handful of wagons or hatches with decent luxury and features at an affordable price to choose from.