Toyota Share Holders Not Happy

[Jerboa113]

h4 just about outperforms a v6 tho at least the turbo to n/a v6 but you know.. apples to watermelons.

 

I also looked at the A4 when I was shopping. I found it to be the most expensive 200hp car I'd ever seen. And for the dealer to sit there with a straight face and tell e $40k is as low as he can go.. I know some place else he can go..

 

+1 on A4 interior.. it was less nice than I expected the switches and knobs even tho brand new felt like the 2nd press would break them off. They felt like they were made of cheap thin plastic. The driver seat damn near had to be all the way back for me and I'm just under 6' tall. I could not ATTEMPT to fit an adult sized passenger in the rear in this config. This was NOT EVEN A QUATTRO! this was a FWD CVT model.

 

I think other than the BLATANTLY bad woodgrain trim in the 05 LGT, the interior quality is very nice in the legacy. Rubberized grips airvents and cubbies, a leather lined e-brake boot, the best damn gauge cluster I have ever seen anywhere.. EVAR.. not to mention a layout of controls that are unmatched even by the 08 models clumbsy ford style button pressing cruise control that replaced the elegant and intuative mercedes style switch we have in the 05s. Subaru has an interior that is miles and years beyond everything else on the market (rattles aside, maybe you should pettition local govt to pave more often.) save for top luxury model cars with compromises most are not willing to take. (performance, price, reliability, price, handling, price, gas mileage, price.. oh.. and price.) Even the base model Legacy and outback has a better interior than a top model hyundai or well equipped accord or camry.

 

oh yea.. and the orange box posted above is fail.. windshield WALL=worst idea since leno's turbine motorcycle. Sure it sounds cool. but its just gonna get someone hurt. In this case it would be gas mileage.. that XB combined with a strong wind would not be able to move forward with its crappy underpowered engine.

[NSFW]

Hopefully Toyota will just take over Subaru and build a twin turbo V8 Boxer engine with AWD.

 

Explain me this "V8 Boxer" idea of yours...

[Carter]

V8 Boxer!?! What a feat of engineering!

[SLegacy99]

I drove a 2001 A4 a little while back. The black plastic on the power window switch (actually most switches and knobs that could illuminate) was flaking off revealing the white (illuminated) plastic underneath. That is poor quality.

Sounds like my dad's 3 series.

[Kaycy]

This thread just took on a whole new humor.

 

Toyota Share Holders not happy with Subaru investment return.

 

Yet Toyota just released this abomination under the scion name. This is NOT the RWD Toyota/Scion sport coupe rumored. (I certainly freakin' hope not.)

 

Autoblog: Scion Hako Coupe

 

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/03/hako_coupe_concept_live.jpg

 

 

I wonder what Toyota Shareholders think of this brick of crap.

 

They'll probably make more money out it than they did with Subaru investment, no they won't, just ask Renault. Someone after an awful nightmare thought a "coupe" should look like a VW Kombi. It was axed very quickly months. It's nearly the size of a grand voyager, the doors are bigger than the bonnet.

http://www.parkers.co.uk/imagecache/file/630/archive/Renault/Avantime/R_1357-.jpg

Sorry to get carried away, now where are we? mmmmm:spin:

[Jerboa113]

from what I gathered.. apparently thats a.. van with 2 giant doors? man.. you know sometimes the wheel DOESNT need to be re-invented ya know?

[SLegacy99]

Toyota Motor to raise Fuji Heavy Industries stake to 17 percent

 

Quote:

TOKYO (Thomson Financial) - Japan's largest automaker Toyota Motor Corp. has decided to boost its stake in Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. from 8.7 percent to around 17 percent, the Nikkei reported on Wednesday without citing sources.

 

The Nagoya-based Toyota (nyse: TM - news - people ) will buy 64.25 million shares in the maker of Subaru brand vehicles for some 30 billion yen, the business daily said.

 

These shares, which account for 8.2 percent of Fuji Heavy's outstanding shares, are currently held by the company as treasury stock.

 

The deal is expected to be scrutinized by the Fair Trade Commission, the report said.

 

But Toyota currently has no plans to turn Fuji Heavy into an equity-method subsidiary, keeping its stake under 20 percent, it said.

 

Toyota will also consider subcontracting production of cars, centering on subcompact mass market models, to Fuji Heavy's factory in Ota, Gunma Prefecture.

 

In addition, the two companies will jointly develop a sports car and other new models as well as environmental technologies.

 

http://www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/...fx4842041.html

[iyalla]

More Info.....

 

http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-to-nearly-double-investment-in-subaru-maker-fuji.html

 

 

Wednesday's unconfirmed reports have Toyota nearly doubling its stake in Fuji Heavy Industries, which owns and manufactures Subaru vehicles. In 2005, Toyota acquired 8.7 percent of FHI, and it is expected to increase that stake to 17 percent shortly. The move would infuse FHI with about $275 million in cash that would be partly spent on developing new models. "Nothing has been decided," said Shinichi Murata, FHI's spokesperson in Japan, while Toyota declined to comment.

 

The news comes at a good time for Subaru, with analysts calling it a saving move by Toyota, according to Bloomberg. Subaru sales in the U.S. dropped by 4.9 percent in the first quarter of 2008, along with a 5 percent fall in Japan.

 

Subaru assembles Toyota's Camry sedan in its Lafayette, IN plant, and the two companies have been reported to work together on developing Subaru hybrid and diesel vehicles, as well as a new Toyota sports car.

 

The Tokyo Stock Exchange saw FHI shares increase by 6.6 percent after the news broke.

[Jerboa113]

to rip off a starwars quote "so this is how" FHI "falls.. with resounding applause..."

[vet]

With FHI share prices continuing to slide it becomes cheaper for Toyota to increase it's share of FHI. Toyota certainly doesn't like to give up easily so if they really believe in FHI this is a smart move on their part.

 

Back to the first page of this thread; I'm questioning the ascertion that the boxer is twice as expensive as a conventional engine. As the largest component of a vehicle, I don't see how any company could survive using a component that costs twice what it's competition uses.

[IwannaSportSedan]

But, it is more robust, and probably requires less warranty repair than some economical I4 engines, though, too.

 

I doubt an H4 costs a third more to create or assemble. there are only so many parts, and where the boxer has more, they are smaller. (thus less volume of material, like heads and cams. the block may be a bit bigger overall, but it has it's benefits, too, like hood clearance, low CG, easy packaging of exhaust and intake manifolds, and other things.

 

I didn't realize that the base impreza had such trouble competing against Corolla or Mazda3. (if we aren't talking WRX to MS3) I thought someone said that the non-turbo Impreza was selling well...

 

The boxer is not that detrimentally different from a regular engine, just layed out differently. Otherwise Subaru, Porsche, and BMW Motorrad, and small aircraft companies would have abandoned it long ago.

[CTlegacy06]

The real issue is that the N/A Impreza CAN'T be positioned against a Civic/Corolla due to the actual size of the engine. Sure engine output and torque is great but in the economy car realm consumers are looking at MPG not HP, especially with the gas prices rising. A smaller modernized engine (2.0-2.2L) would be plenty to get Impreza along with improved MPG, reduced weight and reduced cost (assuming that a smaller engine is cheaper than build on large scale). The models with 2.5i's are more in competition with the i4 Accords/Camrys than the econo-segment. What I'm trying to say is: Subaru has no economy cars in its line.

[chenc544]

But, it is more robust, and probably requires less warranty repair than some economical I4 engines, though, too.

 

Standard drive train warranty is 60k miles. I doubt the robustness of the H4 vs I4 would play much of a role in warranty repair within 60k.

[chenc544]

Subaru sells well north of snow belt because of AWD, but elsewhere it's not very competitive against the FWD offerings from Honda, Toyota or Mazda. Bottom line is that if you are not looking for AWD, Subaru is probably not high on your shopping list.

[The B4]

The Impreza might be selling well for Subaru, but not when compared to other cars in it's class.

 

I rarely see the new Imprezas here yet the Mazda 3 is a really popular car, especially with younger women and young families.

 

You just can't look at the new Impreza and say "Yeh, that's a cool little car"

 

JD Power stated that the Impreza is the fastest turning car in its class and that it was making the highest profit (it was less than $100 over the next closest Mazda 3)

[The B4]

If shareholders were so unhappy then why would Toyota buy more? and more telling than anything BOTH stock prices went up.

[Jerboa113]

assimilation.. borg style.

 

I agree, the base imprezza does not compete well with the civic and corolla, if nothing else because the AWD powertrain makes the car take a fuel economy hit, albeit a tiny one. Average owners dont even know what they're looking at when they open the hood. They dont know what an alternator is, what it does or how it works. They dont understand power brakes or power steering. The idea of "vaccume" is something they use to clean their floors.

 

The type of people looking at a base model imprezza are non-car people. They want to get to work and back, and they want to do it safe, and cheap. So whats important to those people is that it LOOKS sporty, and gets good safety ratings and fuel economy. Thats most likely why Subaru's commercials always tout safety and awards. They're kind of like saying "see?? see where a good brand too!"

 

Its certainly not that they arent a good brand so much as with all things in a society, the less specific you are to one group, the more you please. I've called it "brown bag" many times. I've also heard "white bag" and "white bread" whatevers the plain generic solution is what all industries are working towards.

 

Toyota thinks if they can take over enough of FHI, they can probably learn what they can and get into their markets. I'm not sure, but perhaps they're also interested in their small engine and aircraft engine markets as well? I remember seeing subaru powered generators and pressure washers a few years ago at the hardware store.

[CTlegacy06]

Gotta be careful with those Spec B pressure washers, I heard even on the lowest settings they can cut a man in half clean!

[IwannaSportSedan]

The Impreza might be selling well for Subaru, but not when compared to other cars in it's class.

 

I rarely see the new Imprezas here yet the Mazda 3 is a really popular car, especially with younger women and young families.

 

You just can't look at the new Impreza and say "Yeh, that's a cool little car"

 

That is true. Can't say it is a cool little car.

 

None of Subaru's cars sell as many units as their more mainstream japanese comparisons. Yet Subaru still exists.

 

Standard drive train warranty is 60k miles. I doubt the robustness of the H4 vs I4 would play much of a role in warranty repair within 60k.

 

But warranty labor is expensive, and even a few more claims under 60k miles, even for smaller issues, still costs money. probably as much as the miniscule cost increase of producing a boxer engine over an inline or V-engine. Just trying to illustrate that variety is affordable to produce.

[LongHiway]

I don't know about the "variable" cost of building a boxer engine versus a straight or slant (though where did 90% of the market go for a design), but, with low volume FHI has the probably the same RnD costs to maintain / upgrade the engine as someone with high volume.

 

Then, there's the "fixed" costs of the factory to build the engines. Even if they sub out the build of the engines to a third party, all of the tooling, fixtures and so on to build a unique engine have to be passed on with lower volume.

 

Wait and see. Any benefit of a Toyota partnership (or more) won't be seen for what, a year maybe 2 - aside from absorbing capacity in Indiana building Camrys & Tacomas.

[chenc544]

Short block MSRP:

Subaru Legacy 2.5L = $1993.79

Nissan Altima 2.5L = $2278.18

Mitsubishi Lancer 2.4L = $2864.80

Mitsubishi Lancer 2.0L DOHC = $2824.67 (4G63?)

Toyota Camry 2.4L = $2,618.32

Mazda 6/Ford Focus 2.3L DOHC = $2,844.35

 

It looks like the EJ25 is pretty cheap to make compare to the other Japanese 2.xL I4. That or Subaru is selling the short block at a very steep discount.

[LongHiway]

I dunno. Camrys outsell Legacys what, 10 - 1. Even with that volume, a Boxer is 30% cheaper?

[chenc544]

Most of MSRP came from the OEM catalog on KoP's website. I checked the EJ25 price on another website and it gave the same number. I guess it's possible Subaru's definition of short block is different than the other manufacturers'...

[LongHiway]

Part of the difference maybe the pricing policy.

 

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled program...

[pdw]

What is it about the boxer design that makes it more expensive an a V- design?

 

Or are they just saying that a boxer-4 is more expensive than an inline-4? That kinda does make sense, at least in terms of # of camshafts.

 

It's not just the number of camshafts. A boxer means two more camshafts, another belt/chain, another whole cylinder head, a more complicated block casting, a second exhaust header and a more complicated exhaust. Finally, assembly will take more steps which means more $.

 

As for Subaru vs. Toyota, I think Subaru has dug their own hole. If they were doing things right on their own, they wouldn't need outside investment. The first step is to make cars that look good and give good value. The next step is to market them better.