Toyota Share Holders Not Happy

[CTlegacy06]

Problem is Subaru has no true entry level "econo-box" anymore that they had in 80s-90s... NOTHING in their line up now adays is EPA rated at 30mpg highway. They need to offer the DOHC 2.0L or 2.5L with modern tech (Variable Valve Timing, Direct Injection) and leave turbos as their top end. I think higher gas prices are the real reason for Subaru's diminishing sales and the saturation of the market with Crossovers and other AWD sedans. Before the contrast between what Subaru offered and say another company's only AWD model SUV was a stark difference now those companies are chipping at Subaru's niche. Sure they don't have boxer engines but with modernized i4s they are making just as much horsepower while my 2006 2.5i is SOHC!!!

Sure the Turbo models are fine, the AWD is great but their entry level 4cylinders are sinking the rest of the company.

 

http://www.subaru.co.uk/Subaru_co_uk/ViewMenu.qed?menuid=M1M4M7

If I were living in the UK, I'd get the 2.0R Legacy anyday over my 2.5i since fuel economy was my focus. IF I was leaning more toward performance I'd get a GT and not even consider the 2.5i

[ViscousSquirrel]

How about they build something pretty, a flashy car to demonstrate that if its good enough for Porsche (boxer engines) it's good enough for Suby.

 

when was the last time you saw an add that depicted what made a Subaru worth the extra coin? How about a real world example of their AWD versus the competition?

 

How about anything that goes beyond the abysmal numbers printed in the car mags? I mean really, has anyone just looked at the price, performance, gas mileage ect. of say an imprezza versus the competition?

 

Joe Blow doesn't know the differences all he sees a price tag and some #'s...when the price tag is higher and the #'s are lower whats he going to do? Buy a Toyota, thats what.

[Ferenczy33]

I think the article hit it well "Nobody cares". Nobody cares that its a boxer engine and nobody cares that its symmetrical AWD. Why? Because they don't know its better. They can get "AWD" from any company now and better fuel economy than the boxer so why will they bother?

Those were their two big gotcha's. Now with everybody at the party Subaru is stuck between a rock and a hard place, spend what little profit there is to develop higher mpg's, create newer engine tech, put more standard equipment into the cars without raising price, and create commercials. Or spend no money and hope they can survive and Toyota will somehow rescue them.

 

Poor bastards

 

Correct. Us auto-enthusiasts are but a very, very small percent of car buyers out there. Most car buyers aren't looking for the specifics or details, they are simply looking at mpg, cost, warranty, looks, and whether they need AWD or 4X4. Once other makers began spitting out AWDs, Subaru lost their niche that gave them the majority of their sales. Instead of having to get the Subaru, people can buy a Toyota AWD, with a tiny little motor that gets 30-35 mpg, with a better warranty. They don't care about what type of AWD, they don't care if the car has no power, they just care that it gets them from point A to B. Plus as I see it, Subaru has a little bit of an identity crisis going on. Do they want to be the little outdoorsy, eco-friendly car, or do they want to be the sports car enthusiasts ride with gobs of horsepower. Kind of like the recent Subway commercials, one minute, freakin Jared is on tv telling me to eat Subway to lose weight, then 10 minutes later its Peter Griffin telling me how I can pork down on one of their gigantic artery clogger sandwiches. You can't really have an eco-friendly image though when your cars can't compare in mpg to others.

[erikvcl]

Correct. Us auto-enthusiasts are but a very, very small percent of car buyers out there. Most car buyers aren't looking for the specifics or details, they are simply looking at mpg, cost, warranty, looks, and whether they need AWD or 4X4.

 

You're exactly right. Most customers don't know or care that non-symmetrical AWD is mostly crap. Most Americans do just want a boring old automatic to get them around.

 

Which is why Subaru needs to focus only on its niche market and stop trying to please everyone else. The reason is there already too many car companies making boring (and often crappy) cars (Toyota, Honda, Chevrolet, Kia, Hyundai, etc.). If they can grow their niche, I think they'll do just fine -- but they'll always be small.

 

I bought my Subaru only because I went to the dealership on a lark because "I heard good things about Subaru". I was unbelievably impressed with what I saw.

 

I think Toyota is a crap company and I wouldn't touch another one -- ever. The 5-speed auto in my wife's Camry is crap. Do the car reviewers tear it apart? No. No car review even mentions it even though it's a known "problem". Then they rail against American cars for only having a 4-speed auto in some cars (which are generally fantastic, buy the way), and what do people do? They follow those morons at Consumer Reports or some car mag and buy the Toyota.

 

I'm sick of the pushy, lying assholes that I've encountered at every single Toyota dealership I've ever been to (Goleta, CA; Fremont, CA; Sunnyvale, CA; Cerritos, CA). I've never been to a Toyota service department that wasn't run by morons. I've been overcharged, had my car seriously damaged, had repairs done incorrectly, and been treated like crap. So tell me please how Toyota rates higher than the American cars in quality, reliability, etc.? I haven't seen it. I've had fantastic experiences at every Chevrolet dealership I've been to and the 2000 Chevrolet Silverado I had was of higher quality than my wife's Camry.

 

My point: Toyota will do nothing but screw over FHI. Doesn't FHI do things besides make Subarus? Don't they make forklifts or something? Can't they grow that side of the business so they don't need to generate monster profits from Subaru?

[IwannaSportSedan]

Lotta good points here.

 

but does no one else see that Toyota is complaining because they aren't getting enough OUT of FHI, when they aren't putting much INTO FHI, besides buying the stock on the open market, and filling Isuzu's old spot in the SIA factory?

 

They want FHI's research into batteries, they want Subaru's chassis architecture, and possibly even engines for a new RWD Sporty Toyota coupe (which they have had and ruined in the past, and haven't tried again in almost a decade, while Subaru has a better performance record, reputation, and current lineup of sporty hardware.)

 

But what has Toyota done for FHI to improve their product outlook? I have seen no new tech, no new designs, no new concept cars, no new branching out into other segments... I've seen the Legacy lose it's options and wagon bodystyle, and possibly the forthcoming loss of the Legacy 2.5GT Limited altogether for 2009.

 

What I have seen, is the Tribeca go from badly ugly to somewhat slightly better, and the Impreza go from somewhat ugly to HORRIFIC, and the Outback stagnate without amenity options, just like the Legacy, and the Legacy be further ignored and disregarded. Some of that is SOA, Some is FHI/SOJ, but none of it is Toyota helping them.

 

All I hear is Toyota taking from them.

 

Who buys one of the smallest companies in the Auto industry, and then complains that they don't feel satisfied when sucking them dry?

[Jerboa113]

they put window trim into FHI.. new imprezza.. that's about it.. they also gave them a few bad design ideas.

 

"trees are strong my lord, their roots go deep.." "rip them all down".. the quotes from LOTR comes to mind when I think of what toyota is doing to FHI.

 

i would almost lay money down that the new model legacy and the camry will be nearly identical if nothign else than they are made in the same factory and toyota can minnimize costs that way.

 

they're going to wind up like the Chevy cavalier and pontiac sunfire.. same car, different badge... we very well may wind up going the way of AM general here.. in 30 years you'll see a few subarus at car shows and peoples kids will go "dad what kind of car is that?" and the dad will go "oh thats a subaru legacy, they dont make them anymore but boy were they something."

 

I honestly am afraid that this may be "the one that got away" of sorts. That car that you bought, you loved, it started to break down on you and you sold it for a piece of trash that you hate and can never buy that car new again beacuse they dont make it anymore..

[franklin]

How about they build something pretty, a flashy car to demonstrate that if its good enough for Porsche (boxer engines) it's good enough for Suby.

 

when was the last time you saw an add that depicted what made a Subaru worth the extra coin? How about a real world example of their AWD versus the competition?

 

How about anything that goes beyond the abysmal numbers printed in the car mags? I mean really, has anyone just looked at the price, performance, gas mileage ect. of say an imprezza versus the competition?

 

Joe Blow doesn't know the differences all he sees a price tag and some #'s...when the price tag is higher and the #'s are lower whats he going to do? Buy a Toyota, thats what.

+1 Part of the sales problem could be good product/design and poor marketing.

[highlander]

Legacy GT the best unknown performance car on the road today.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I honestly am afraid that this may be "the one that got away" of sorts. That car that you bought, you loved, it started to break down on you and you sold it for a piece of trash that you hate and can never buy that car new again beacuse they dont make it anymore..

 

I am actually starting to hope that the 2009 Legacy GT Spec B, if that is all that is going to be left, and is actually painted a good shade of red, that I'll be able to find a nice used one when my 2005 is ready for the boneyard.

 

After that, I may be screwed, or I'll have to start amassing a fleet of them, and keep one or two running.

 

I see early 90s Legacys still on the road... hopefully mine has those kind of legs...

[IwannaSportSedan]

If Subaru or the Legacy continue to suffer under this, Toyota can listen to the sounds of silence... as all of the Legacy performance fans buy things like this from other companies.

 

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/03/09_pontiac_g8gxp_reda.jpg

 

G8 GXP, 400+ horsepower V8, 6-speed, and roomier without looking bloated. Plus, the chassis is rumored to be AWD compatible, possibly.

 

I would so buy this car and badge it "Bonneville" as it deserves to be.

 

I love my Legacy, but this is a compelling reason to consider a change next time I go looking for a car.

 

What is SUBARU DOING TO KEEP MY BUSINESS, or TOYOTA doing to help them?

[john_knoxville]

G8 GXP, 400+ horsepower V8, 6-speed, and roomier without looking bloated.

they do a good job of hiding the bloat then, as that thing is reportedly about 700lbs heavier than the LGT

 

i don't understand all this blame directed at toyota's control over subaru. doesn't the article indicate toyota owns less than 9% of subaru? wouldn't that mean subaru still retains the other 91%? i have a mortgage on my home, but that doesn't mean the bank controls what color i can paint my walls

[SLegacy99]

Rebadged Yaris sub compact? Mmmmmm, the paint quality.

[Gasaraki]

That Pontiac is junk.

[ViscousSquirrel]

That Pontiac is junk.

 

and you are high.

[Carter]

G8 is nice. AWD and I would be sold.

[IwannaSportSedan]

they do a good job of hiding the bloat then, as that thing is reportedly about 700lbs heavier than the LGT

 

i don't understand all this blame directed at toyota's control over subaru. doesn't the article indicate toyota owns less than 9% of subaru? wouldn't that mean subaru still retains the other 91%? i have a mortgage on my home, but that doesn't mean the bank controls what color i can paint my walls

 

The G8 is a bigger car, no doubt. But it isn't as flabby-looking as the Charger, and other cars in that size class. It looks more tailored for it's size.

 

Not to mention a 6-speed stick, that not even the SRT-8 cars have.

 

4000lbs/400hp is still 10lbs per hp. Legacy GT would have to weigh ~2500lbs, not ~3500lbs, to match that. I really do wish the G8 were lighter, but the numbers aren't anything to sneeze at.

 

--------

 

back on the topic...

 

This whole thread is about Toyota complaining about lack of return from FHI/Subaru.

 

All Toyota has done is take from Subaru/FHI, they so far haven't provided anything, and they have the unmitigated gall to complain.

 

THAT is why I think it is insulting.

 

Most of Subaru's current position is Subaru's own doing, but it is completely insane to come in, take what you want, and then complain about it, as Toyota is doing.

[Guest]

I have a great suggestion for Toyota - GTFO out of FHI!

[Jerboa113]

^ +1

[HAMMER DOWN]

I think you're living in 1970s with your irrational American anti-diesel bias.

 

Good luck with 7500 oil change intervals if you intend to keep the car long.

 

And Subaru diesel does not have belt.

 

Now, now I'm running on avg.12k OCI. Over 88k & my motor & turbo is still running like new.

 

Mike

[SLegacy99]

I do my oil changes every 5000 miles. I have almost 100k on the car and no problems to speak of.

[legandrex]

While Toyota may be able to use the engines to enhance its

offerings, Fuji Heavy remains locked in shrinking niches because

consumers are unwilling to pay extra for the technology,

according to UBS's Yoshida.

 

``The sad fact is that most consumers can't tell the

difference,'' he said.

 

The statement above is so true in this country. Those of us on this forum are in the minority when it comes to the appreciation of the design and engineering our our cars. It's true...most consumers wouldn't be able to tell or appreciate the difference between and inline 4 and a boxer 4. They want a car to be cheap, get good mileage, and be reliable.

 

 

[gianspi]

I have to highly disagree. The average consumer won't care if diesel is 25% more than gasoline if they are getting double the mileage per gallon. Although I agree that the public will take this into consideration, once they see 40+mpg, it becomes irrelevant up to a certain point.

 

I would gladly pay $6 a gallon for 40mpg. I'm getting 20mpg from $3.40 a gallon as it is.

 

Diesel fuel is now over $4.00/gallon where I live. If it continues to be more expensive than premium gasoline, that's gonna put a dent in the auto companies' plans to give us Diesel passenger cars (finally). People will look at the increased maintenance cost, plus the higher fuel cost, and Diesel will get a big "FAIL" again in the US.

 

Hello, VW? Where is your Diesel? Where is your Jetta wagon? Where is your Jetta wagon Diesel?

 

-- Steve

[ViscousSquirrel]

that, and how much did I pay for this massive dash rattle? ...quality control anyone?

[NSFW]

What is it about the boxer design that makes it more expensive an a V- design?

 

Or are they just saying that a boxer-4 is more expensive than an inline-4? That kinda does make sense, at least in terms of # of camshafts.

[ViscousSquirrel]

What is it about the boxer design that makes it more expensive an a V- design?

 

Or are they just saying that a boxer-4 is more expensive than an inline-4? That kinda does make sense, at least in terms of # of camshafts.

 

 

Two heads = more cost in raw material, labor, machine work, camshafts, gaskets ect.