Tahoe = 3, LGT = 0

[meythodrider]

I went up to South Lake Tahoe this weekend for a little snowboarding trip and got caught up in some crazy snow in tahoe. I'd love for this story to be ... LGT conquered the snowy roads of Lake Tahoe but unfortunately that's not the case.

 

I drove up HWY 50 Thursday night from the Bay Area with my wife through some heavy rain. As we passed Placerville, the rain turned to snow and chain control was in full effect. On one particular slippery part of 50, I pulled over partially to allow a car to pass me. As I accelerated to get back on the road, my tires started slipping and then I slid across the road and ended up in a slow bank on the other side (Tahoe 1, LGT = 0). I was far enough up the bank that I couldn't get out myself so I had to wait until Caltrans came by. They pulled me out and I was on my way with no damage to the car. The rest of 50 was smooth but slow.

 

When we got into South Tahoe, we turned off 50 onto South Truckee Rd, which was fortunately plowed. The next street we turned onto had about 5" of snow on the ground. There were tire tracks through the snow so I decided to go for it. As I headed up this road, I could tell the LGT was having problems gripping because of the depth of the snow so I ended up turning around and going back to 50 where I put chains on my front 2 tires. I made my way back up and made it through the 5" of snow. The next street I was supposed to turn on had about 7" of snow but no tracks. I tried going through this street but after about 15 ft, I was stuck(Tahoe = 2, LGT = 0). I called my friends who were already at the cabin and they came out with their Xterra and Tacoma to lay tracks in the snow for me to go through. After they made tracks and pushed me out of my stuck position, I was able to make it to the cabin. What an adventure!

 

The next morning we got ready to head to the slopes but there was about 8" of snow on the ground that accumulated overnight. There were tracks but the snow outside of the tracks was deep. I got off the driveway but as soon as I hit the road the LGT got stuck again (Tahoe = 3, LGT=0). I think the snow in the untracked portions of the road was so high, my car was actually getting lifted up and therefore losing traction. With the help of my friends who pushed as I drove, we were able to make it to the main road which was plowed.

 

This was a crazy weekend in which I learned alot about the limitations of the LGT. The AWD is great but as soon as you run into any depth of snow greater than 3-4" then the car can't handle it. I have the stock tires but I think even with better all season tires, I probably would have had the same problem. My friend's 4 runner, tacoma, and Xterra all were able to make it through the parts where I was stuck so I think the clearance was the big factor. They also had some big beefy tires with good traction.

 

Thanks for reading to the end. Hopefully my experience will prevent somebody else from running into the problems I had this weekend.

[Guest]

Hopefully your experience will get you and others to buy decent tires.

 

Get real snows next time, or even all season Nokian WRs and you will be flying thru the snow.

 

FWD with snows >>> AWD with crappy tires. Real simple.

[sactojesse]

I've been through Tahoe when it got hit w/ 8 feet of snow in one weekend (New Year's weekend, December 04/January 05) in my LGT and didn't have problems. However, I didn't have to go through really deep snow. I sailed over about 18-inch deep snow for short periods of time, but I kept the car moving.

 

I actually drove through Tahoe twice this past weekend on my way to and back from Mammoth. Highway 395 was closed on Sunday morning, so I was stuck in Mammoth waiting for the highway to open. The roads opened at around 1 p.m. and I drove through Tahoe around 4:30 p.m. It was plowed by the time I got there, so I had no problems, other than trying to avoid some FWD idiots w/ chains getting sideways on Pioneer Trail and Highway 50.

[SBT]

Echo the comment about tires. If you're going to be driving (a lot) in those type of conditions, it makes sense to get good ASes or better yet, true winter tires. If you're relying on the RE92As to get you through, you're gambling. I routinely drive through 6-8" of heavy, untracked, wet snow, where it's accumulating at the lower bumper level. I always make it through with no issues, but I've got some decent AS tires (Michelin Pilot Sport AS) at the corners. Throttle and gearing are equally as important, but it sounds like you've already figured that out....

SBT

[matt]

+1 about the tires. If you go to Tahoe regularly in the winter get real snow tires. Powering all four wheels doesn't matter if none of them has traction.

 

I've been using Dunlop Wintersport 3Ds for the past two seasons. They're "performance winter" tires - in other words, they intentionally give up the ultimate in snow and ice traction compared to more extreme snow tires in order to perform decently in the dry. They do get pretty mushy when it's really warm out though, so don't use them year round.

 

So how big a difference do the 3Ds make? Well, despite being "performance winters," the difference in snow traction between them and the RE92s is night and day. I took my LGT up to Tahoe the night I bought it (used w/ 17k miles) and had it in whiteout conditions the next day, still with the RE92s. It was awful. (The stock wipers were shit too, but that's another story.) That was near the end of the season so I didn't bother buying snow tires then, but I did for the next season and I will never go back to using all seasons in the winter.

 

With the 3Ds, if ground clearance isn't a problem, then neither is traction. You can plow through snow deeper than what you have clearance for too, but how much and how far you can make it depends on a couple things:

 

1) How high is the snow? This is obvious, but worth listing. Plowing through door sill height is one thing, plowing through half a foot more than that is another.

 

2) How wet/heavy is the snow? This can make a HUGE difference. Wet snow is a double whammy: it takes much more force to plow through, so you need more speed/traction to keep moving, and it compacts into a solid mass easier, so you're more likely to get high sided. Tahoe tends to get fairly wet snow. Generally speaking, colder temperatures == drier snow, and Tahoe doesn't get very cold for a place that gets as much snow as it does.

 

3) How much room do you have to build up speed before entering the deep section?

 

4) How far do you have to go in the deep section?

 

5) Is the deep section downhill, flat, or uphill?

 

6) Do you have to make any sharp turns in the deep section?

 

Whatever you do, DO NOT STOP! I've only gotten stuck twice, and the first time it was because I instictively stopped for a stop sign. Yes, I knew better, I just wasn't thinking. I was only a couple feet from the plowed road and could easily have made it, but I was high sided so I didn't have enough traction to get going again from a dead stop. Digging out the bottom of the car at night in a storm is not fun.

 

That reminds me - always keep a snow shovel or two in the car. Hopefully you won't need one, but if you do you will be very glad you have it.

 

If you do get stuck try rocking the car back and forth. Throw it in first, stomp on the gas, throw it in reverse, stomp on the gas, and keep repeating as quickly as you can. Sometimes that will get you free entirely on its own, and even if you do have to shovel it won't be as much until that gets you free. Remember that our reverse gear doesn't have a synchro, or you'll probably grind it by mistake.

 

The 3Ds are the first snow tire I've used (in any car), so I can't compare them to other snows. I might try another kind when these wear out just to have a point of comparison. Then again, I'm pretty happy with the 3Ds and they're priced right, so I might just get them again. If you do get the 3Ds and put them on the stock rims, as I did, I recommend the 205/50/R17 over the 225/45/R17. The latter are cheaper and their narrower width should help on ice, at least in theory. (They don't come in our stock tire size, 215/45/R17.)

[meythodrider]

Thanks for the advice, unfortunately economically speaking its not justified for me to buy snowtires. I go up to Tahoe 4-5 times a season. Of those 4-5 times there will be deep snow on the ground at most 2 times? So its not worth it for me to get the snowtires.

 

This is just a lesson learned about the current capabilities of my car with the current tire setup. Hopefully somebody will earn from my experiences and understand that with the current stock setup, you won't be able to make it through the type of snow I experienced.

 

Now if I had unlimited resources... I'd be all over snow tires on my big, raised Tundra =)

[NewLegGT67]

Sorry to hear about your adventure. Hopefully, you were easy on the clutch when you got stuck.

[mbcracken]

What chains did you put on the tires? The chains topic has been much debated here but i was curious about the brand and performance. Regardless of what SOA says, here in Washington State AWD/4WD still have to carry chains at all times. I recently bought a set of the SC Z's more as an anti-ticket then to actually have to use them.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[f1anatic]

I had very few problems getting through 10" of snow on the road behind my home with the Outback. Nokian WRs...

 

 

Well isn't your car sitting a few inches higher than the GT ? And you got tires. So why wonder.

 

With the Legacy, you can easily get stuck - ground clearance and the somewhat flat bottom means you will often glide over the snow, not drive thru the snow.

[matt]

Chains? I bought my LGT precisely so I never have to use chains. Do they actually insist on seeing a bag of chains up in WA?

[SBT]

Chains - same here is SoCal. Can't get up to the mountains without them in snow conditions. Only exception is if you have true winter tires, i.e., Nokian WRs, Bridgestone BLIZZAKs, etc. with the winter M&S logo on the sidewall. Then the CHP won't ask you to chain-up, but, they'll still ask to see your tire chain kit.

SBT

[mbcracken]

Chains? I bought my LGT precisely so I never have to use chains. Do they actually insist on seeing a bag of chains up in WA?

 

They have but not me. There can also be a ticket handed out if you don't have them. There has also been times where they have required chains on AWD/4WD vehicles going up to Mt. Baker & Mt. Rainier.

 

They make 2WD chain up all the time here as a way to reduce the non-initiated snow drivers getting themselves into to much trouble. In the last 25 years of snow driving in Washington (both eastern & western), Idaho, Montana & BC, I have never chained up going up to skiing or mtn passes. One of the many reasons for me getting the AWD was so I would not be hassled by the WSP to have to chain up.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[soyboy004]

i was in south lake tahoe last weekend and had an interest experience. There were two situations where i slid when coming to a stop. The first time i was slowing down from about 20mph and had to swerve into a bank to avoid hitting a 4runner. I then continued down South Lake Tahoe blvd and the light turned red at my turn and i had to roll through the light because my re92s were sliding.

 

If you were there saturday night, you'll know how the conditions were. that night, our cars (ms6, honda civic with chains, my lgt with re92) were covered in over 12 inches of snow. i was able to get out of the drive way, drive through (plow) about 8-9 inches of snow on the ground with tracks with no problems.

 

i made it home to the bay area with no problems going along 50 with pretty bad conditions. i did see a few other lgts, one of them getting chained up.

 

my buddy has an ms6 with the all season nitto neo gens and he said the cars had no sliding issues.

[Gmoe]

The AWD is great but as soon as you run into any depth of snow greater than 3-4" then the car can't handle it. I have the stock tires but I think even with better all season tires, I probably would have had the same problem.

 

First, sorry you had such a shitty experience. That sucks and couldn't have been any fun.

 

Second, the car CAN handle it, and then some. Don't judge the cars snow capabilities with stock tires!!! Just don't. I've been through MUCH more than 3-4" with NO problems. Get yourself some good all seasons at least, then let us know what you think. The first day I had my car (in March w/RE92s) it snowed about 2". I went out for a spin and OMG was it bad. I was seriously considering returning the car through the dealers 20 day/2000 mile guarantee. It's snows a lot in western NY and I need a car that can handle it. Good weather followed and turbo envy set in so I "forgot" all about it.

 

Just before this winter I put a set of Conti Extreme Contacts on and it's literally a night and day difference. I cannot stress enough how much better the car is in all conditions. The stock tires are garbage once you have some miles on them. I don't know if a little wear exposes a harder compound or what, but there is no mistaking that ANY all season will be a huge improvement over stock with some miles on them, let alone a good set of dedicated winters.

[Guest]

I can go thru a foot of loose snow with Nokian WR on a mildly lowered LGT. It just plows thru the snow.

 

RE92 are crap. Never tried them in snow, they were crap enough in dry for me.

[matt]

They have but not me. There can also be a ticket handed out if you don't have them. There has also been times where they have required chains on AWD/4WD vehicles going up to Mt. Baker & Mt. Rainier.

 

They make 2WD chain up all the time here as a way to reduce the non-initiated snow drivers getting themselves into to much trouble. In the last 25 years of snow driving in Washington (both eastern & western), Idaho, Montana & BC, I have never chained up going up to skiing or mtn passes. One of the many reasons for me getting the AWD was so I would not be hassled by the WSP to have to chain up.

 

Cheers,

Mike

 

Caltrans never asks to see chains if you have AWD with snow tires. Technically you are supposed to carry them, but nobody does and AFAICT Caltrans really doesn't care. If the road is open they're actively plowing it, so you'll never encounter more than a couple inches of unpacked snow on the ground, which in turn means no traction problems.

 

In case this wasn't clear, the two times I've gotten stuck weren't on roads subject to chain control. The first time was in a parking lot (my stop sign story above), and the second was on a neighborhood street that hadn't been plowed all day.

 

Also, technically they can require chains on AWD w/ snow tires, but again, they never do. Hell, they don't even have signs for it. (There are permanent signs along the side of the road for chains or snow tires required and for chains or AWD + snow tires required.)

 

All of the above applies to the Tahoe area, i.e. 50, 80, 88, and 89 around and on the way to the lake. I can't speak for the rest of California.

[SBT]

Caltrans never asks to see chains if you have AWD with snow tires. Technically you are supposed to carry them, but nobody does and AFAICT Caltrans really doesn't care. If the road is open they're actively plowing it, so you'll never encounter more than a couple inches of unpacked snow on the ground, which in turn means no traction problems.

 

It's the CHP that we deal with here in the SoCal mountains, not CALTRANS. CALTRANS is out taking care of the roads, the CHP is monitoring who transits the roads. They actually have pull-over areas and they do make you chain up, and/or do sight "check" your chain set if you have dedicated Winter tires.

 

SBT

[sactojesse]

While dedicated snow tires are better, the requirement of "4WD with snow tires" when chain controls are in effect means 4WD or AWD w/ M&S rated tires. I've been inspected and waved on every time w/ just M&S tires during chain controls.

[matt]

It's the CHP that we deal with here in the SoCal mountains, not CALTRANS. CALTRANS is out taking care of the roads, the CHP is monitoring who transits the roads. They actually have pull-over areas and they do make you chain up, and/or do sight "check" your chain set if you have dedicated Winter tires.

 

SBT

 

We have the same inspection and pull-over areas, but they're staffed by Caltrans here. If you were to blow through one I assume they'd send CHP after you, but CHP are not the ones doing the initial checking. They do hang around the inspection points sometimes, but not always.

 

How zealous is CHP about chains in socal? Will they compare the tire sizes on the bag with your actual tires, or will they wave you through with any bag of chains that looks appropriate? I still have chains from my old (2WD) car. They won't fit over my LGT's tires, but would they be enough to get through an inspection point in socal?

 

Edit: Nevermind, the bag doesn't have tire sizes on it, just an attached tag which I can take off. And of course I could put them in a different, unmarked bag if need be.

[SBT]

How zealous is CHP about chains in socal? Will they compare the tire sizes on the bag with your actual tires, or will they wave you through with any bag of chains that looks appropriate??

 

 

 

They do do a sidewall check for the M&S rating. If that's not there and you're AWD/4WD, they want to see the chain kit. Don't typically do a compare to the tires, just a visual to make sure that you have a set. That said, I would not want to be stuck out in these mountains with a set that doesn't fit.... Interesting enough, the chains off my old Jeep 16" wheels fit the Leggy wheels perfectly. Must have gotten luck.

 

SBT

[matt]

They do do a sidewall check for the M&S rating. If that's not there and you're AWD/4WD, they want to see the chain kit. Don't typically do a compare to the tires, just a visual to make sure that you have a set.

 

Have I been misunderstanding you this whole time? I thought you said they ask to see chains even if you have AWD with snow tires. Caltrans usually checks your sidewalls too of course, and I'm pretty sure they'd tell you to chain up right there if you had summer tires.

 

That said, I would not want to be stuck out in these mountains with a set that doesn't fit....

 

That's a little silly. Sure, if you're driving around up there with summer tires you'd have a use for chains, but then why'd you buy an AWD car in the first place? You really don't need chains with AWD and decent snow tires. Caltrans is aware of that, which is why they won't even ask to see chains in those cases.

 

And if you don't need chains, why would you possibly want to use them? Chains SUCK. They're noisy, rough, annoying to put on (usually done in crap weather too), and they force you to go slow when conditions otherwise would not. They also tear up the road and hardpacked snow, and they can mess up your car to boot.

 

Cable chains are somewhat nicer, but they still suck.

 

End rant

[RockyMtnGT]

Yes, but I was able to get through snow deeper than the ground clearance is.

 

+1 My GT is lowered and I "plow" through snow significantly deeper than my ground clearance. It helps that the snow out here is mostly powder of course.

 

The RE92's were the 1st thing to go on my car (Well, okay- I got rid of the idotic seatbelt chime first )

 

I have yet to have trouble getting where I'm going whether I am running my Hankook Ice Bear's or my Kuhmo ASX's...Good rubber makes all the difference!

[Gator GT]

whew... your story was actually quite amsusingly written and when I first saw the title, I thought you got hit by a Chevy Tahoe....3 times!

 

Imagine my relief and laughing state as I found out otherwise.

 

Even with REAL snow tires, ground clearnace is still key for getting over serious accumulation. I've got Nokian RSi's and I've got to watch the depth of snow (esp since I've also got Pinks on). You just have to be smart about where you're going and what is there.

[sactojesse]

It's snows a lot in western NY and I need a car that can handle it.

Yeah, it may snow an average of 92 inches a year in Rochester, but the Tahoe area averages around 200 to 250 inches a year, depending on location. Also, the ski resorts range from 250 to 500 inches average, with the western slope resorts (Sugar Bowl and Sierra at Tahoe) and Kirkwood getting the most snow. The difference is that we drive up to visit the snow on weekends and holidays, while you have to live with it on a day to day basis.

[meythodrider]

Sorry to hear about your adventure. Hopefully, you were easy on the clutch when you got stuck.

 

 

Unfotunately my clutch burned pretty badly each time I was stuck. Currently the car is in the shop getting inspected. Hopefully I didn't damage the clutch. Its still under warranty but the dealer said that if there's evidence of abuse, then it won't be covered under the warranty. Does my situation count as abuse? I hope not.... Anybody have this happen to them?