Need advice on suspension

[sactojesse]

I think I may now do some Bilstein HDs with either stock springs or Pinks. What do you guys think of that? Honestly? I searched but couldn't find the difference in rates between the stock springs and Pinks. Anyone know it off-hand?

There's only about an 8-9% increase in spring rate between USDM LGT springs and STi pinks. USDM LGT springs are purported to be around 3.6 kgf/mm (200 lbs./in) F and 5.4 kgf/mm (300 lbs/in) R, whereas pinks are 3.9 kgf/mm F and 5.9 kgf/mm R.

[whobaru]

^^^ Thanks Jesse! That means they are probably the PERFECT amount of increased stiffness I'm looking for. The whole point of my data-mining was to make sure I wasn't spending $1500+ on something I wasn't happy with. I want slightly stiffer than stock, and hopefully someone chimes on on how Bilstein HDs combine with Pinks.

[RaceComp Engineering]

I had HD with Pinks on my Spec -B with Pinks. Its as good feel. Softer than coilovers and works well. I cant see anyone not liking it...but thats based on personal opinion, so throw that out.

 

to the OP...you should find someone in or near you and go for a ride.

 

mw

[sactojesse]

^^^ Thanks Jesse! That means they are probably the PERFECT amount of increased stiffness I'm looking for. The whole point of my data-mining was to make sure I wasn't spending $1500+ on something I wasn't happy with. I want slightly stiffer than stock, and hopefully someone chimes on on how Bilstein HDs combine with Pinks.

I have Bilstein HDs w/ STi pinks in the front and JDM LGT wagon springs in the rear and I love it! Firm ride, but still comfortable for long trips. I used JDM LGT wagon springs in the rear to make the wheel gap equal -- two finger widths -- front and rear. If you have a sedan, you can always order the wagon rear pinks or double up on rear spring seats w/ sedan pinks to balance the rear gap. Although I don't have any specs on it, the JDM LGT springs are supposed to be stiffer than USDM LGT springs, so I would imagine that they are similar to pinks in spring rate, but are longer and don't lower the car.

[Guest]

^^^ Thanks Jesse! That means they are probably the PERFECT amount of increased stiffness I'm looking for. The whole point of my data-mining was to make sure I wasn't spending $1500+ on something I wasn't happy with. I want slightly stiffer than stock, and hopefully someone chimes on on how Bilstein HDs combine with Pinks.

 

It's not all about stiffness. It's also about lowering. Pinks on JDM SpecB Rev.B Bilsteins ride far stiffer than KW coilovers, which are rather soft.

 

I don't have experience with Bilstein HDs but I could imagine them being harsher overall with Pinks than KWs.

 

You really better get ride in a car. Reading about suspension is like reading about sex. Not nearly as informative as experiencing it.

[whobaru]

I truly wish there were anyone within a few hours of me, but *sigh* there is not. There is one other guy here in Idaho that mods his LGT and he's pretty non-communicative. Plus, he has Whiteline springs anyway. I must say I'm a little bummed to hear I may not have this pegged. I wonder if anyone has personal experience comparing the Rev.B to the HDs...and maybe even to KWs. (I wish)

 

Unclemat- You really think some Pinks with HDs might ride rougher than V2s?

Funny comment about reading about suspension btw

 

Thanks for the input Jesse and Matt.

[whobaru]

I WOULD like to make the car even, so if I went the Pinks route, what effect would wagon rear pinks have on the car level and stiffness?

[whobaru]

Because Xenonk spent so much time imparting some wisdom through the use of PMs, I felt the need to share such great information. Thanks Xenonk!

 

PM #1:

"In all honesty, I dont know how much of a performance you really want, because there's two main thoughts you can go with the shocks: long travel (such as the stock suspension) or more like short travel suspension (like the coilovers I have).. it's not so much about how much squat you are getting, but how much time your tires are staying on the ground to keep your car from squating.. you need equal and opposing forces for the shocks to work effectively. Squat is a good indication letting you know that you are getting grip because the road is actually "pushing back" on your suspension. If the car isn't diving, you will end up putting a lot of emphasis on the tires to cushion the harsh driving which will give you a false sense of grip (I'm not sure how good you are with knowing when the car looses traction when the car isn't squatting).

 

but if you are driving that hard, you may want to check up on how hard your inputs are.. you can probably out-perform a lot of the medicore suspensions out there if your driving is good. In the 8 years of racing that I have done, you buy the suspension to fit the road, not for yourself or the style of driving you do, especially on a daily basis.

 

The V2s is a good starting point, but to me, i still feel that they are soft and doesnt cover the range that I would need for daily driving (since it's better to get a longer travel suspension for public roads). But if you really dont care for that, you can move up to Cusco Zero 2s or Zeal (Endless) coilovers for the race feel and use short traveling suspension for your daily drive."

 

PM #2:

"The difference between long travel and short travel depends on the roads you drive on. There's no way a World Rally Car will use short travel suspension on uneven roads, especially the kind that are really filled with potholes and dips along each side of the car. You want to keep your tires touching the ground at all times. The smoother and less height difference from one side of the car to the other, the shorter traveling suspension you can use. You want to have your tires always touching the ground for the best traction. What happens when your car gets air-borne? The shocks are fully stretched out and the tires aren't touching the ground? Basically you are spinning the tires in mid-air and it's a waste of effort. I can go on and on into detail, but that will be too much info to get into to explain what you really need. In all, not everything has to be "harsh".. "harshness" is about how well your shocks handle the impact the moment the tires come into contact back with the road.. if the shocks are too soft and they end up using all the travel of the shock, you end up bottoming out. That alone is where most people feel the harshness is when the shocks are bottoming out or experience sprin binding. Of course slammed cars ride rough IF they are using up all the travel of the shock.. a good shock design along with good engineering can cushion all of the force without needing to use the entire length of the shock.. you'll be surprised at how many coilovers out there that are designed poorly and are mostly slapped together.

 

Anti-roll bars take away the independent suspension of the car. So when the car does lean, the outsides shocks and springs are holding up the car while the inside shocks are not doing anything. If the car leans a lot (and the shocks are either too hard or too soft) and you have a very stiff sway bar, it will lift the inside tire (see some of my racing pics that i posted up with my inside rear tire off the ground cuz my rear sway bar is big, thick and set to full stiff) The roll bar ties the two shocks together. Think of it as doing bench presses while the barbell you lifting is the sway bar.. each of your arms are the shocks. During the winter time, i disconnect my sway bars completely. If I'm racing in the rain, I disconnect my front sway bar to get more rear rotation through a turn.. really there's a whole lot of things and combinations you can do to make the car perform.. it's a matter of what you want the car to do. Even an alignment can go a long way.

 

The problem is that people are just too general about 'performance' and they really dont know what they want other than having "better".. it's just too much of a general term to use. I can easily just pick out a few things for you that can make your front end of your car grip like crazy and have the rear of your car totally unstable, making the car very hard to drive if it starts to rain. I could recommend a set up that can make your car feel so stable that it doesnt even want to turn at all based on the higher speeds.. bottom line is that unless you know your driving habits or skills, i can't recommend you anything. I can give you my setup, but it doesnt mean that you will be able to make use of it. You should taylor the car to your needs. i'm the kind of driver that goes into the corner fairly 'hot' or fast with little or not brakes. I'm only looking for enough front end squat from a tap of the brake to make the rear end get off the ground, thus making the car pivot from the front tires.. I only have to turn the wheel just a few degrees to get the car to start to "spin out".. this is how I turn my car. People that drive my car think my car is totally out of control, but when i drive it, it's fine.

 

For my car, i dont use roll center adjusters even though I dropped my car more than 2" (closer to 2.5"). But I also have a lot more other mods that I put on my car that I dont' really need them. The benefit for me to get it is to help save some tire life at the race track since I'm driving down the straights with excessive camber which eats up my tires in the braking zones. i just trail brake into the turn really heavy to get the car to pitch to one side and just use the outside tires for the majority of the grip.. my inside tires will lift off the ground and end being dragged across, which will eat up more tires.. having a corrected roll center will lessen tire wear and possibly shave off a little bit of lap time because I will trail brake less and get on the throttle sooner out of the corner.

 

just read up my old posts, it explains everything you need to know."

[whobaru]

bump

[goneskiian]

I want slightly stiffer than stock, and hopefully someone chimes on on how Bilstein HDs combine with Pinks.

There's a whole entire thread about this set up. In case you haven't read it...

 

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54289

 

Damn! It was way back on page 12! :lol:

 

Guess somebody better bump it back to the first page!

[whobaru]

Thanks! ^^^

[OhSoTuRbO6]

get a Spec B,lol, F ing with u

[whobaru]

[whobaru]

So I've decided what I'm going to do if anyone cares to know.

 

I'm going with the JDM Sti "Pinks" springs and Bilstein HD combo for a few reasons (let me know if I'm off).

They are from here: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73818&highlight=pinks

 

1.) I want to lower the car because I can't stand the current wheel gap (terrible for cosmetics). It should sit a little more even as well because of the Pinks. I like the fact that with Pinks, the rate increases more in the back than it does in the front to even out the car in addition to what I assume is a difference in spring height.

 

2.) I don't want to put the car so low that I sacrifice too much ride quality, at least not any more than it appears the stiffness of the Pinks/HDs will. I've read they are even borderline too stiff for some people when in combination with the HDs. However, I think they are just enough increased stiffness to be a worthwhile sacrifice to get rid of the terrible squat I despise so much when speed shifting.

 

3.) It seems the V2s, although a great quality ride in general, will be even stiffer than the Pinks, and I really don't want to beat up my neck enough to regret deciding on the KWs.

 

4.) It doesn't hurt that these are a bit less expensive than the V2s.

 

What do you guys think? Any advice?

 

I'll be purchasing these through RCE (good about answering my questions) and plan to obtain the Pinks, HDs, JDM front top hats, and hopefully dust seals from them. If I understand correctly, I can then re-use the rear top hats, and the f/r rubber spring seats. Do I have this pegged? Anything else I may need?

 

Any input greatly appreciated!

[goneskiian]

Let us know how you like the ride when you get them on!

 

I'll do this eventually. I'm very interested in sactojesse's use of JDM LGT rear springs though to give the wagon a more even stance.

[whobaru]

^^^ I've read that's a good idea on the wagon. I'll post pics and review when they're installed. Thanks for everyone's help!

[praedet]

So I've decided what I'm going to do if anyone cares to know.

 

I'm going with the JDM Sti "Pinks" springs and Bilstein HD combo for a few reasons (let me know if I'm off).

They are from here: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73818&highlight=pinks

 

1.) I want to lower the car because I can't stand the current wheel gap (terrible for cosmetics). It should sit a little more even as well because of the Pinks. I like the fact that with Pinks, the rate increases more in the back than it does in the front to even out the car in addition to what I assume is a difference in spring height.

My KW V2 set-up is lower than stock, but slightly taller than Pinks on Bilsteins. It can go lower...

2.) I don't want to put the car so low that I sacrifice too much ride quality, at least not any more than it appears the stiffness of the Pinks/HDs will. I've read they are even borderline too stiff for some people when in combination with the HDs. However, I think they are just enough increased stiffness to be a worthwhile sacrifice to get rid of the terrible squat I despise so much when speed shifting.

See above for height and below for stiffness

3.) It seems the V2s, although a great quality ride in general, will be even stiffer than the Pinks, and I really don't want to beat up my neck enough to regret deciding on the KWs.

The K2s ride more compliantly than JDM Spec-B Rev A or B with Pinks. I have ridden in all three. They also handle better. The Bilsteins just do not have good low-speed high frequency dampening (sharp bumps). The HDs are the equivalent of Rev B from what I have read. The most compliant spring/dampener set-up would be Konis with JDM GT Springs. And pink set-up will be more harsh, and ANY bilstein set-up will be more harsh than the Konis with the same springs. The KWs are truly better handling, and riding, than almost EVERY spring/dampener combo avaiable for the LGT. There are better handling coil-overs, but not a better cobination...

4.) It doesn't hurt that these are a bit less expensive than the V2s.

That is true, but it will be very close in the end.

What do you guys think? Any advice?

I have, you just didn't take it

[Guest]

My KW V2 set-up is lower than stock, but slightly taller than Pinks on Bilsteins. It can go lower...See above for height and below for stiffnessThe K2s ride more compliantly than JDM Spec-B Rev A or B with Pinks. I have ridden in all three. They also handle better. The Bilsteins just do not have good low-speed high frequency dampening (sharp bumps). The HDs are the equivalent of Rev B from what I have read. The most compliant spring/dampener set-up would be Konis with JDM GT Springs. And pink set-up will be more harsh, and ANY bilstein set-up will be more harsh than the Konis with the same springs. The KWs are truly better handling, and riding, than almost EVERY spring/dampener combo avaiable for the LGT. There are better handling coil-overs, but not a better cobination...That is true, but it will be very close in the end.I have, you just didn't take it

 

KW v2 ride definitely softer than JDM SpecB Rev.B with Pinks I had.

[praedet]

^^^The crazy part is I have driven Rev A/Pinks, Rev B/Pinks and the KWs in a VERY handling oriented test and the KWs also handled better. Both with only a JDM rear bar

[whobaru]

Wow. I guess where I am mistaken is listening to those who suggest coilovers will generally be stiffer either way, and perform better because of a lower stance and increased stiffness. It sounds like this assumption excludes a better-built, more comfortable coilover like the V2s. I'm glad you guys chimed in when you did... I was about to put my card down on the Pinks/HDs. You know how it is trying to assimilate varying opinions when there are so many out there. If the V2s truly are more comfortable (most important) AND happen to handle better than something like Pinks with HDs, then this is what I will go with. I'm tired of researching, so this is my final decision!

 

V2s! ...bishes!

 

DON'T TRY TO CHANGE MY MIND!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...or should I save the difference and get T1s?

 

[Guest]

^^^The crazy part is I have driven Rev A/Pinks, Rev B/Pinks and the KWs in a VERY handling oriented test and the KWs also handled better. Both with only a JDM rear bar

 

So I did.... both with JDM rear bar as well.

[praedet]

T1 w/ the 400/400 set-up SHOULD have a setting simlar to the KW V2s...

 

But, since they are valved to also match w/ a stiffer spring at the upper end of the spectrum, they might be stiffer. I just haven't ridden on them yet. You could ask Crazy Ken as he has had a Bilstein/Pink set-up and the new T1s...

[whobaru]

^^^ nice, thanks for the heads up! PM sent to CK.

[RaceComp Engineering]

T1 w/ the 400/400 set-up SHOULD have a setting simlar to the KW V2s...

 

But, since they are valved to also match w/ a stiffer spring at the upper end of the spectrum, they might be stiffer. I just haven't ridden on them yet. You could ask Crazy Ken as he has had a Bilstein/Pink set-up and the new T1s...

 

I'll also be posting a little back to back write-up after driving Myles Bilstein HD/Pink spec b and riding in Crazy Ken's RCE Tarmac 1 car. As soon as the weather starts cooperating.....

 

- Andrew

[whobaru]

Sounds good!