bluechipbmw Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 This is my first new Subaru I have over owned. It's '05 Legacy GT Limited. I have previously owned an Audi A4 3.0 Quattro. My lease was expiring so I had to decide on my next car and I fell in love with the new Legacy. I have a few questions regarding the AWD and traction control. I apologize in advance for my stupid questions. Last night out in Suffolk County there was about 2-4 inches on the ground so I decided to test the AWD. Obviously not on streets so I found an empty parking lot. Let me start off by saying this car has amazing power dry or wet! The Legacy has a 45/55 split distribution....which made me notice even more around making turns and in a straight run. I hate to compare to the Audi but my Audi had a Electronic Stabilization Program. This prevented my rear kicking out or my front from skidding. When I disabled the ESP thats when all the power came out and I was able to cut through the snow. This is how I feel the Subaru is all the time....as I made my turns not going really fast but I would feel the front tires skid and the same happened with the rear as well when I would punch the gas. With the ESP on the Audi...I always had traction. So can someone tell me why I dont feel any traction control when I feel the wheels slipping? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechipbmw Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 Check out this site: http://www.audi.com.sg/glossary/e/esp.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Because you don't have traction control Better tires would make the car have much better traction in the snow. Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser0929 Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Because you don't have traction control Sure he does; his right foot. bluechip -- what rao said is right; if you want more traction (and therefore more control), a full set of snows is the only way to go. Other than that, a light touch with your right foot (and staying at least one gear higher than you'd normally drive in the dry) should prevent you from breaking the rear loose in snow too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechipbmw Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 I actually did buy set of snows: 17 Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2 Much better than the RE92's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 That was quick! Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechipbmw Posted December 28, 2004 Author Share Posted December 28, 2004 After reading the message board and experiencing the RE92's first hand...I didn't want to waste anytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 I see that you are also driving an auto.. the manuals come with 50/50 split on the GTs... Keefe Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NonovUrbizniz Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 I don't really get why they didn't include a traction control program... I guess it's supposed to be a "driver's car". Either way with an on/off button it still can be... It may be a feature of an aftermarket computer system... I know hondata has a rudementary traction control program in it's ecu's for honda. As mentioned moderate throttle. It's not a luxury car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 This car has so much integration I bet traction control would be a matter of a firmware update. Stability control - steering angle sensor and accelerometers + firmware. Unless we already have all of the sensors, which is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinddog Posted December 28, 2004 Share Posted December 28, 2004 Easy Answer: There IS no traction control on the 05 Subaru Legacy GT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c_hunter Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 The only Subaru with stability control is the Outback VDC. I hope they offer it on the other models someday -- almost every other carmaker makes stability control available throughout the model line. Subaru is lagging here. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExRex Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 Why wouldn't Subaru install traction control on all of the limited models? If they already have it for the VDC, what is the additional expense in adding it to the GT/XT? My Audis and BMWs always had traction control, and I never viewed it as taking away from the "driver's car" experience, especially if you can turn it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theJrod Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 In BMWs, you can't really turn it off (unless you knew the cheat, which pretty much everyone does, but it's not listed anywhere). In AWD BMWs, it can't ever be turned off, just turned down... In everyday street driving, of course stability control doesn't take away from the "driver's car" experience - you're not using it! If you were to take any BMW out on the track, you'd quickly realize how much of a pain in the ass it is. For me personally, stability control is a waste of money. I realize however that if/when my girlfriend drives my car that it would be a benefit, but I just don't let her drive in the snow . I grew up driving in the snow, and found that while stability control often is helpful, it can also make mistakes, and prevent the driver from doing what they are trying to do (i.e. intentionally entering a skid to avoid collision, etc). So having it is fine, but being able to turn it off is even better. Just don't add it to the Legacy and then raise the price - I kinda like the price where it's at... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluechipbmw Posted December 29, 2004 Author Share Posted December 29, 2004 I didn't care much for it in a rear wheel drive car (previous 5 series I owned) but after owning an Audi A4 3.0 with Quattro I realized how essential it was. I totally different driving experience with and without. I personally like the option of turning off the ESP in certain situations but when driving in the snow I kept it on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limeydriver Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 The manual is very nicely balanced in the snow it is very predictable. I would think the Auto is a bit more tricky with the rear bias. I can see it causing front wheel plough in as the rear is pushing the car. I don't know if the bias on the auto changes if the drivetrain senses the front starting to lose traction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobY Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 The reason why there is no dynamic stability control is because the car uses real Limited slip differentials. Engagement of stability control say to the right rear wheel would couple the left rear wheel which would couple the rest of the drivetrain. Any car that you see using stability control isnt a pure AWD vehicle in the sense that it either uses brake force "psudo-differentials" or part time AWD. Real differentals are MUCH better than psudo-differentals when it comes to performance and traction. Unless we implement somthing along the lines of WRC computer controled Pneumatic differentials... even that would be extremely tricky... using real differentials with stability control would be a very difficult undertaking if not impossible. Even the later generation Audi quattro's crappified themselves by removing 2 of the 3 Torsens differentals and implemented brake force "psudo-differentals" to implement stability control. When it came to performance the old school quattro system spanks the new quattro system. However the new system keeps inexperienced drivers on the road. Just like engineering in massive understeer in most road cars today. I can literally EMBARRASS my friends A4 in the snow with my subie. Electronicly controled AWD sounds good on paper but in real life real differentals reign king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 RobY, I was trying to track down the differences between Quattro II, III and IV... When did they switch to electronic differentials front and rear? What does a 1996 A4 Quattro have? -B -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theJrod Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 RobY - very good points. My X5 4.4i had that type of AWD - essentially just a viscous coupling center diff, and open diffs front and rear. The computer uses the brakes to slow down a spinning wheel, thereby allowing a transfer of torque to the non-moving wheel. In extreme situations, it can actually halt forward movement. If 2 of the wheels have absolutely zero traction, the system can't transfer the torque to the non-moving wheels, and you're stuck. Now, about the WRC computer controled Pneumatic differentials - see the new Acura RL. The computer in that car can actually control the amount of power going to each wheel from the differential (side to side), not by using the brakes at all. Very nice system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 RobY, I was trying to track down the differences between Quattro II, III and IV... When did they switch to electronic differentials front and rear? What does a 1996 A4 Quattro have? -B http://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/audi/usmodels.html#qgen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 I can literally EMBARRASS my friends A4 in the snow with my subie. Electronicly controled AWD sounds good on paper but in real life real differentals reign king. It's not electronically controlled because it's better, it's electronically controlled because with modern ABS all you need to do is write a couple lines of code instead of putting two more LSD's in every car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rao Posted December 29, 2004 Share Posted December 29, 2004 That's right, those damn cheap european cars Rob IF YOU CARE ABOUT YOUR CAR YOU SHOULD NEVER DRIVE IT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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