AWD_Rules3830 Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 I'm really starting to wonder if Subaru is loosing their direction. Subaru in 2004-2005 seem to have everything going for it. The Legacy/Outback resign was amazing and other than the "B9" Tribeca (the first version anyway) the product line was great. Even with that Subaru had a bright future. The Legacy is arguably the best car in its class (other than its transmission and a few quality control issues) as it out handles just about anything in its price range. After all the legacy platform being the future of Subaru it had to be good. Even with a common platform, Subaru does a very good job of making their products different; especially for a small company. With the announcement of the worlds first boxer engine diesel for production car, things could only seem to get better. But then we given the new Impreza . While the interior doesn't offend many and is pretty good IMO; the exterior otherwise left many of us befuddled. Subaru cars have never been easy on the eyes outside but they always at least looked something unique. This one looked like a Toyota Corolla and a Mazda 3 had butt sex and came out with a retard baby. At least the US market gets a sedan, which only looks marginally better. In addition to that, Subaru left the drive train, and transmission all but untouched with only minor adjustments to the engine. I know the age old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but this getting ridiculous. These transmission and drive train parts are getting old. To further confuse us, and to get to the reason i posted this; Subaru has decided to go with a joint venture with Nissan ( ) and develop a CVT. Primary for their new turbodiesel. In something of a desperate move to increase fuel economy, Subaru has also indicated they will put this CVT across the line. Boxer engines have never been know to efficient machines. The problem is I think CAFE standards, and Subaru is worried if they are going to be able to meet them as the rise. Subaru currently doesn't have to pay penalties for being below CAFE but that might change in the near future. I love my car ... basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 So, it bothers you that their transmissions are "getting old." And, it bothers you that they're now investing in technology that would allow the driver (or computer) to choose precisely the ideal transmission ratio for any given circumstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sactojesse Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 I'm excited about the diesel boxer. I'm also not surprised about the CVT. After all, Subaru was a CVT pioneer when it introduced the CVT equipped Subaru Justy in 1989, the first U.S. passenger car application I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOE_1985 Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 NOOOOOOO NOT NISSAN, nissan , electrical failure company sigh...it would have been too much like right for ... a, make there own b, team up with toyota since they own or bought a small part of subaru (supposidly) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speeding_gaijin Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 i dont see anything wrong with new impreza. never saw the sedan though. Modern looks, great comofort, AWD, twin scroll turbo at peak torque coming at 2400 tells me its gonna sell and change the market for hot hatches across the world. I think Subaru should step up to the plate with new tranny. VW and audi use tiptronic for a while now. subaru should at least have it as option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOE_1985 Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 if subaru only had more dealerships instead of 2-5 per state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godwhomismike Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 I'm holding judgement - could be kinda cool - like a 6,7 or even 8 ratio CVT. Paddle Shifters that SOA just added to te ;08 LGT are also very cool. I have reservations about CVY transmissions, and I've noticed automaters moving away from them (i.e Ford). . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerseyglock Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 CVT will not be able to hold high HP.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wukindada Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 Exactly...... If it indeed is a possibility Subaru needs to send test mule cars to AVO & COBB so they can see how the tranny responds to say a AVO420 & supporting mods. But wait........the engineers know what is best for our cars..... Toyota 6EATS .........SUCK!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWD_Rules3830 Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share Posted July 19, 2007 CVT will not be able to hold high HP.... Subaru is a "performance" brand with many high power motors. I really wonder if a CVT will stand up to the torque generated by a diesel engine very well. I would much weather see a new twin clutch paddle shift automatic for the STi and Spec B and a new close ratio 6 speed unit for the WRX and LGT (the 6 speed would obviously still be an option on the spec b and sti). The dual clutch would have a non performance version for the upper end models of the tribeca/outback/forester and a regular 5 speed or 5 speed automatic for lower end units as well as the base impreza and legacy models. Diesel doesn't really need a CVT if you ask me. 3 to 4 extra mpg and getting a boring car in the process? Subaru AWD is still the best in the business but i think its the transmissions that are seriously lacking. I love my car ... basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerseyglock Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 If they really want to see highway MPG goes up. They'll need to lower the final gear ratio or reduce our rpm at highway speed. Just like the vetts, 1000rpm at 65mph (give or take few mph). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBad Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carter Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 I would like to see (even though it wouldnt happen in a million year) team up with Audi or BMW for a DSG transmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 if subaru only had more dealerships instead of 2-5 per state Thats just how it is in the south. My area has 4 in a 20 mile radius. And CVTs aren't bad folks. Its just not what you are used to. And http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65992 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wukindada Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 ^ They are bad when it comes to modding..... Just throw the same 6AT that they use on the IS350 in the LGT & Tribeca . It has nice firm shifts & the additional cost would be minimal Toyota 6EATS .........SUCK!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabydanimal Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 if subaru only had more dealerships instead of 2-5 per state Umm, I can name 5 in Eastern Mass alone. You live in the wrong state for Subarus dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabydanimal Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 FWIW a rental Dodge Caliber I drove had a CVT. It was the weirdest most disconnected driving experience I've had. You mash the pedal, the revs go up and it just feels like the clutch is slipping yet you start moving a little faster. Based on my one negative experience I would never consider buying a car with a CVT. Unproven tech = reliability problems, inefficiency, and unhappy drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wukindada Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 My sister in-law has a Murano with CVT, she has about 40k on the odo & has had no issues. Reliability wise I think they are ok, they just cannot handle mods:( Toyota 6EATS .........SUCK!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 CVT will not be able to hold high HP.... 1) Ever? No matter how much they invest in developing the technology? I thought Williams had it working OK in Formula 1 before it was banned. 2) Neither can the LGT automatics today. But people work around it with add-on coolers and upgraded valve bodies and solenoids. The aftermarket won't support CVTs right away, but what is there reason to think it will never happen? 3) As pointed out in another CVT thread (on NASIOC I think), the Murano is heavier and more powerful than the LGT, and CVT seems to working there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 1) Ever? No matter how much they invest in developing the technology? I thought Williams had it working OK in Formula 1 before it was banned. This is correct, banned because they were beating the pants off the other teams with manual gearboxes, hmmmm......... Having driven a Nissan Micra with a CVT though, I would never ever buy one, like mentioned above it is the worst driving experience ever. Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWD_Rules3830 Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share Posted July 19, 2007 FWIW a rental Dodge Caliber I drove had a CVT. It was the weirdest most disconnected driving experience I've had. You mash the pedal, the revs go up and it just feels like the clutch is slipping yet you start moving a little faster. Based on my one negative experience I would never consider buying a car with a CVT. Unproven tech = reliability problems, inefficiency, and unhappy drivers. I drove an escape hybrid with one. I was driving it and looking at the RPM gauge going ... wtf is going on?? I know how the work and all but it as just ... odd. The CVT is a move by Subaru to try and meet the new possibility that CAFE laws will go up since the 80's and are worried that the might not be able to meet them. Subaru is not one of the few companies that have to pay penalties currently; that of course might change. On a side note here, this is what i don't like about cafe laws. Essentially, small companies like Subaru get punished for having mostly 20-25 mpg performance cars and not having economy boxes. A company like Toyota or GM doesn't really have to worry to much about it. They can keep their halo vehicles that get 20 mpg while making many 30 mpg + cars to keep them from having to pay penalties. This is IMO very unfair and just another one of the failures of the CAFE law. American's don't realize it yet but it will prevent larger engines or premium cars from getting sold here because of the penalties. The Chrysler Imperial and a few others like it have already gotten canceled because of the revised CAFE standard. We should just raise gas taxes and not punish automakers. That way Americans have a choice at least to drive something that isn't as efficient perhaps but are willing to pay for it. Auto firms get to make what they want too. I love my car ... basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 Why are you so sure that all CVTs in the future will suck like the Micra? CVT has the potential to keep the engine just at the right RPM for any sort of conditions. And Cobb/Enginuity have the potential to let drivers tweak the way the CVT behaves. Sure it will probably suck for a year or three until they get it right, but technology marches on. What's the advantage to letting the factory decide on 5/6 gear ratios that you have to manually select with hand-operated pedals and levers, with brief periods of power less every time you change ratios? Are CVTs destined to forever suck for the same reasons autos do, just with continuously variable ratios? Or are those problems solvable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 Why are you so sure that all CVTs in the future will suck like the Micra? CVT has the potential to keep the engine just at the right RPM for any sort of conditions. And Cobb/Enginuity have the potential to let drivers tweak the way the CVT behaves. Sure it will probably suck for a year or three until they get it right, but technology marches on. What's the advantage to letting the factory decide on 5/6 gear ratios that you have to manually select with hand-operated pedals and levers, with brief periods of power less every time you change ratios? Are CVTs destined to forever suck for the same reasons autos do, just with continuously variable ratios? Or are those problems solvable? Because they all work on the same principle, holding the rpms at the peak of the torque curve for accelerating and then reducing them for cruising. I want to drive my car, choose what gear I am in and when to change. Next thing will be a car you don't need to steer either, then you can just get in the back seat all together I agree that CVT's have the potential to make a car accelerate faster, and more economical on long journeys, but if it does that with no driver inputs required, then it's not what I want in a car. Now a DSG is more what I call an improvement Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 Yes, CVT's suck. Snowmobiles are so boring since they have CVT's. CVT's are great since you have infinitely variable gearing. However even the current generation of CVT are still mechanically inefficient than conventional gears. DSG's have it's issues too. Currently they are not designed to handle higher output engines. Even the rumored new Audi S6 with a possible turbo V10 engine will still get a slushbox instead of the DSG. DSG is still more complicated than the ZeroShift gearbox which some of the F1 teams are using. ZeroShift system is extremely simple mechanically and currently only require some electronic tweaking with the engine to make the shifts smoother for a seamless shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWD_Rules3830 Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share Posted July 19, 2007 http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g127/Chwisch87/this%20cool%20thing/n32507369_31083248_2725.jpg I love my car ... basically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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