fatbastard Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 This spring I plan on doing a few things and one of the items on the list are sways. I was also thinking abut lowering the car a little but I think I am OK with the stance and I am afraid if I lower it I will drag the hitch more often and hit the undercarraige when I drive to the trail head. So I think I may just do sway bar/s but I am also concered that sways will tighten the suspension to be a little harsh over expansion cracks and such so I don't necessarily want to go too crazy. I was thinking about the following bars, please let me know what you think. IPD: great price and people have been pleased with the improvement but I don't know if it is big enough to flatten out the rear on a wagon since there is more weight higher up. If I went this route I wouldn't do the front. AVO: a bit more expensive but it adds adjustability for summer/winter setup. I think this would flatten out the rear nicely but it may start to show more of the fronts weakness. Cusco: good value and performance but concerned that rear alone will give too much oversteer and the rear isn't adjustable for summer/winter. Cobb: more than I think I need to do since I am not tracking the car but if I go with the AVO and find the front needs help I am going to spend about the same amount and I would rather have a set designed to work together. I think the IPD is all I'll need to flatten things out a little but I just don't want to waste money on it and end up buying something else in a month. Oh...by the way currently there are no power mods but I will likely go stage 2 this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wukindada Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 As far as springs go, try Swifts....they really do not lower the car that much & they are a great progressive spring. With sways go I'd suggest Cusco & just get the rear to start, see how you like it;) Toyota 6EATS .........SUCK!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lhsa Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 i have jdm spec b bilsteins. i have the jdm rear sway and i've been thinking about upgrading to the AVO solid rsb since it is the same thickness, but a bit stiffer. my only concern is the increased stress on the rsb mount tabs. i know AVO makes the reinforcement brackets, but i haven't seen any reports on it. jdm rsb is good for stock suspension on the wagon, but with spec b's a little more stiffness would be better. i would only change the front if you're going with cobb or cusco rsb or the rear will be too stiff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerseyglock Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I have IPD rear sway bar, AVO reinforce brackets and Perrin endlinks (front and rear) on my wagon. I'm very happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatbastard Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 I have IPD rear sway bar, AVO reinforce brackets and Perrin endlinks (front and rear) on my wagon. I'm very happy. I think I am trying to stay between the IPD and the AVO...if I go bigger I think it will be too rough and I'll need to reinforce the rear mounts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerseyglock Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I think I am trying to stay between the IPD and the AVO...if I go bigger I think it will be too rough and I'll need to reinforce the rear mounts Save your headaches and get reinforce mounts. I've been in this route over a year ago. I kept breaking aftermarket bushing brackets and end up just gave it back to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatbastard Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 Besides keeping the stock mounts from breaking did you notice if the sway felt more effective after upgrading the mounts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I'd stay away from adjustable bars. IMHO they are more or less hacks. That narrows down the list to JDM rsb, Cuscos and Switfs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoDork Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Cusco F&R's + OEM Endlinks.... Like RonCo Said...."Just Set it & forget it!" ~Sucka-Duck~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyd2005 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 How do you plan to lower the car? If you use coilovers with stiff spring rates, then you will need stiff swaybars to go with it. The cusco's are not that stiff when paired up to the MR coilovers (6 kg / 8 kg). I disconnected my front cusco and drove around with just the rear cusco and found the balance (oversteer) surprisingly did not change much. Of course, I did not push it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 How do you plan to lower the car? If you use coilovers with stiff spring rates, then you will need stiff swaybars to go with it. The cusco's are not that stiff when paired up to the MR coilovers (6 kg / 8 kg). I disconnected my front cusco and drove around with just the rear cusco and found the balance (oversteer) surprisingly did not change much. Of course, I did not push it. This is an interesting one. I heard two theories on that. One what you say above, i.e. stiff lowering springs/coilovers require accordingly stiff sway bars to have them do anything. Second theory is the opposite... since the bodyroll is eliminated by lowering/stiff springs, sway bars may be as well less stiff, so to not affect "independence" of the suspension. Which one is correct? I am not an expert on this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoDork Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Under normal driving conditions, all sways will react somewhat the same....you've gotta push it to determine the differences. Also with the wagon, the back end weight has alot to do with the feel and drive of the car. I've got Cusco Coilovers paired with F&R sways...and the setup feels tight and responsive. Two full track events under my belt and the wagon is butter, totally predictable and like a puma...or a bear, a bear with these fangs and claws...you gotta show the bunny you have them... ~Sucka-Duck~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Everything I have ever read, and EXPERIENCED, is the opposite. Stiff springs can use smaller roll bars. The springs reduce the roll, so you can use smaller ones and let your suspension act more independently. I am happy w/ the JDM rear bar w/ my KWs. I will be trying out front and rear adjustable bars, but only to try them out. I think I will be keeping the JDM bar for most occasions. On full stiff with the big bars on stock suspension, I DID notice an increase in NVH... Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickeyd2005 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Sure if you have really stiff coilovers then you will negate body roll. If you have a really stiff coilover setup, you can pretty much take off the swaybars and you won't get body roll. I'm just saying that the effect of the swaybars will be negated with higher spring rates unless you increase the swaybar spring rate as well. Each wheel has two springs. One spring is the coilover and the other spring is the swaybar to the opposite wheel. If you increase the coilover spring rate then the swaybar will not carry as much load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatbastard Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 I am trying to avoid if possible a spring strut change...I am OK with the way it handles minus the body roll. I think a rear bar may be enough but I am not sure since the wagon has more weigh in the rear. Unclemat...why do you say adjustables are hacks? I have already experienced some oversteer in stock for with slick roads, so an adjustable bar would be benefitial I would think???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I am trying to avoid if possible a spring strut change...I am OK with the way it handles minus the body roll. I think a rear bar may be enough but I am not sure since the wagon has more weigh in the rear. Unclemat...why do you say adjustables are hacks? I have already experienced some oversteer in stock for with slick roads, so an adjustable bar would be benefitial I would think???? I read some opinions on that. Swift claims that non-adjustable bars are better/safer. Cusco went from adjustable to non-adjustable. Besides there aren't any adjustable I'd want to own... Cobb... hacks with fitment problems (look how the fsb stresses endlinks), Whitelines... had issues, besides they look really kinda primitive (straight), which does not inspire confidence, IPD... don't know, but I doubt enough R&D went into them. AVO is rear only. I'd just buy JDM rsb in that case. Tohatsu (Swift) and Cusco actually design and manufacture suspensions, so I'd favor them, assuming they know what they are doing. That being said I have JDM OEM rsb on my car and a set of Swifts in storage Take the above FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waxiboy Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 JDM should be fine for street use. All others if you track the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsme Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I have a 5mt LTD wagon. Right now I have: Whiteline F&R adj. swaybar for about a year with no problem. I have them both set on soft and the work great no noise or clunks and really too out the body roll with stock endlinks. It look primitive? How hi-tech do the other bars look? Unclemat have you used whitelines sway on your LGT before? After adding the lat. locks I have heard of no problems. I don't feel really any more harshness then stock and I'm running on 19"s with 225/35/19. You can get both for about $320. Racer X FMIC for '05-'09 LGTs, '08+ WRX and '10+ LGT,'14+ FXT, and '15+ WRX TMIC Racerxengineering.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 I have a 5mt LTD wagon. Right now I have: Whiteline F&R adj. swaybar for about a year with no problem. I have them both set on soft and the work great no noise or clunks and really too out the body roll with stock endlinks. It look primitive? How hi-tech do the other bars look? Unclemat have you used whitelines sway on your LGT before? After adding the lat. locks I have heard of no problems. I don't feel really any more harshness then stock and I'm running on 19"s with 225/35/19. You can get both for about $320. No, no experiences with them. But the fact they require the kludgey lateral locks plus they are simple straight bars do not indicate they did much Legacy specific R&D. Other bars, Cuscos and Swifts seem to mimic the stock bends (well, one may argue no much R&D here either... ). I said "FWIW" so I might be completely wrong on the subject.... I just prefer simplicity of non-adjustable bars and bars that have no issues. I understand there were isolated clunking problems with Cuscos, but never with Swifts or JDM OEM bar.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerseyglock Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Besides keeping the stock mounts from breaking did you notice if the sway felt more effective after upgrading the mounts? Yes, I can take the entrance and exit ramps much faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-lo Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 As far as springs go, try Swifts....they really do not lower the car that much & they are a great progressive spring. With sways go I'd suggest Cusco & just get the rear to start, see how you like it;) fatb, minus the springs, this is what I did. I love the handeling. also recently added an upper strut tower bar in and I really like it. I'd like to add one in the front eventually. 258k miles - Stock engine/minor suspension upgrades/original shocks/rear struts replaced at 222k/4 passenger side wheel bearings/3 clutches/1 radiator/3 turbos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinlsb Posted March 22, 2007 Share Posted March 22, 2007 Everything I have ever read, and EXPERIENCED, is the opposite. Stiff springs can use smaller roll bars. The springs reduce the roll, so you can use smaller ones and let your suspension act more independently. I am happy w/ the JDM rear bar w/ my KWs. I will be trying out front and rear adjustable bars, but only to try them out. I think I will be keeping the JDM bar for most occasions. On full stiff with the big bars on stock suspension, I DID notice an increase in NVH... Ted +1 for TED. I have both F&R Cobbs on my wagon and am very pleased with them. I also have stock springs. You NEED reinforcement brackets. The stock brackets are BS. The Cobb setup allows throttle steer and also has grease fittings on the rear bar which eliminates the common squeaking problem. They also weigh less than solid bars. "Belief does not make truth. Evidence makes truth. And belief does not make evidence." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caramall2 Posted March 24, 2007 Share Posted March 24, 2007 I drive on some real crappy roads, and in a long, cold winter, so I think I can vouch for ride comfort and oversteer. I have Cusco F&R (stock springs). I started with rear, liked that, but a bit better balanced with F&R (though not a biggie in my opinion). Ride comfort is fine. Can't remember, but why don't you want a FSB? Oversteer isn't bad (I wanted a little) but in snow or ice you have to pay attention (as does anyone). To try them out, I'm putting on GPMoto coilovers this spring. I have all sorts of spring rates (I bought some extras to play around with) but think I'll go 5k front, 6 or 7k rear. Can't go too stiff as the roads can be really rough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatbastard Posted March 25, 2007 Author Share Posted March 25, 2007 Can't remember, but why don't you want a FSB? It isn't that I don't want a front per say in fact I wasn't sure just a rear bar would be enough. My concern was that due to the extra weight in the rear that a wagon may actually need a stiffer rear bar to get the same results as a sedan and by doing so it may put too much oversteer into teh car without a front. I would just buy a rear to try but I think I will stick with a manufacturer that also makes a front. I just prefer the idea of a matched set, hoping that the manufacturer actually did some testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 25, 2007 Share Posted March 25, 2007 due to the extra weight in the rear It's ONLY 55 lbs more (unlimited wagon over unlimited sedan). The wagon is not like a ton heavier than sedan!!!! Btw, unlimited wagon is LIGHTER than limited sedan. EDIT: you have limited, bulk of the extra weight is just above your head.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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