So how much are big brake kits going to run for the LegacyGT?

[bemani]

[quote name='liquidiq']SS lines, ... would make a world of difference [/QUOTE] Am I the only one that thinks SS lines are up there with silicon radiator hoses? I sure as hell don't see any noticible differences with SS lines for brake and clutch on my WRX.

[emlevins]

[quote name='RobY'][B] Braking distances in magazines are SOLEY dictated by the TIRES... [/B] If you can lock up the tires your brakes are big enough. BBK are for bling, feel, and perhaps better cooling during track days. The LGT brakes are leaps and bounds better than the WRX. Ill leave it at that. Not only are the rear rotors the same size as the WRX front rotors, the LGT brakes are vented all around. For linear acceleration and deceleration softer sloppy sidewall tires brake better than stiff sidewall tires of the same design, thats why the WRX brakes shorter with an inferior brake system. Thats why some sloppy SUV's have better braking distances than some sports sedans with all seasons. Just like a drag radial sidewall flex tends to provide a better linear tractive surface. It just becomes sloppy when you corner. You want shorter braking... upgrade your tires not your brakes. You can spend $50,000 on a carbon F1 brake kit and you will brake the same distance as stock system with the same tires. Locking up your tires= locking up your tires no matter what you do it with wether it is a multi thousand dollar brake kit, the stock brakes, or simply throwing a stick between the spokes of the wheels. Only when your tires overwhelm your brake system does a BBK become advantagous as far as braking distances go. This is not the case in the Legacy... The brakes overwhelm the tire's tractive capabilty so easily that it boggles my mind why anybody would EVER mate such a crappy tire with this car.[/QUOTE] OK - help me understand why the WRX brakes shorter than the LGT when both have RE-92s. Is it that the WRX has 16" and the LGT 17" tires? Are stopping distances shorter on 16" vs. 17" tires? Do the 16" tires on the WRX have a "softer sloppier sidewall" than the LGT's 17"? If the WRX has an "inferior brake system" but the same "type" tire as the LGT, I do not understand the roughly 15' difference in 60-0 braking between the two cars in favor of the WRX. I will confess to being ignorant about the mechanical aspects of braking and what the equipment is on the respective cars. I'll take your word that the LGT has "superior" equipment. All I know is what I read in the tests (and the two cars have the SAME tire, though different sizes, and the WRX brakes shorter) and my subjective feel, having driven both cars (and my experience "feels" like the WRX stops quicker than the LGT). There HAVE to be alot of other variables that affect braking besides the rotors, pads, tires, etc. What other differences between the cars would account for the WRX advantage?

[RaceComp Engineering]

[quote name='bemani']Am I the only one that thinks SS lines are up there with silicon radiator hoses? I sure as hell don't see any noticible differences with SS lines for brake and clutch on my WRX.[/QUOTE] drive faster and stop more often ,.you'll have a better appreciation for the lines,.... better yet anyone who thinks that the car wont fade without them, ride with me on a back road, or do some clover leafs for 5 minutes. 944 turbo guy

[gtguy]

[quote name='bemani']Am I the only one that thinks SS lines are up there with silicon radiator hoses? I sure as hell don't see any noticible differences with SS lines for brake and clutch on my WRX.[/QUOTE] SS lines are a feel mod. They won't stop you any shorter. So, SS lines will make a difference in pedal feel, in tandem with uprated fluid. But the real SS lines question is this: If you can press the brake pedal sufficiently hard to make the stock rubber lines bulge, are the tires not locked up and ABS going off? Now, brake feel is not to be underestimated as a component of overall braking, but SS lines will not, in and of themselves, stop you shorter. You can run uprated fluid with the stock lines and get about the same fade resistance as SS lines and that same fluid. Kevin

[Deer Killer]

You guys do know that regular brake lines have stainless steel on the inside :)

[apexjapan]

It takes me approx. 20-30 minutes to stretch the standard brakes lines like the single condom at a late night footballer party. Give me a good road in the mountains or a stint at the track, and after that point, SS lines will definitely have me stopping in a shorter difference than those lines. After one of our track sessions at twin ring motegi, one driver basically had no brakes left, and after trying to drive home with them like that, ended up peeling a front fender off on a pole because of a wanker that forced him to do overtime with the brakes - and they were not there. We all learned from that, and one of our first additions is SS lines when we get a new car. But that is because we track the cars. Does that affect you if you have a pure street car? No. Standard lines are the way to go - they provide a bit more modulation than SS lines do. It's hard to notice until you back to back test, but it's there. There is only two problem areas with the current USDM Legacy GT brakes. It's the pad material and the tires. Nothing else - the rotors are huge, the calipers are huge, and the amount of pad on the rotors is huge. The entire system is actually very, very good. I've done time with it at Fuji Speedway at speeds that few people have done in a Legacy yet, and I was nothing but impressed with the brakes. But I was driving Legacies with better rubber and better pad material. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url]

[SBT]

[quote name='Deer Killer']You guys do know that regular brake lines have stainless steel on the inside :)[/QUOTE]Are you serious? No way that I'd want any kind of woven metal inside my brake lines. You're funning us right? Outside, Yes! Inside, NO! Paul, All good points, particularly if you're going to push these cars to the edge of their design envelope. For the 80% (maybe less) of the Legacy community that won't track their cars, tires, and then possibly pads, would probably be more than enough. SBT

[Xenonk]

[quote name='Deer Killer']You guys do know that regular brake lines have stainless steel on the inside :)[/QUOTE] Yea, but PSI capacity rating from stock stainless lines are different than PSI capacity rating on aftermarket lines I believe. Pedal feel is very important when you need to feel the modulation. For daily driving, yea, it's not needed.. but for some people who drive like me (aka left foot braking through autocrosses or making a quick U-turn), modulating the brake pedal is important. Keefe

[Xenonk]

[quote name='liquidiq']Wouldn't that be dependant on the master cylinder? It can only pump so much fluid to the brake system, and with bigger calipers I would think more fluid would be needed, and more pressure would have to be applied. I could be mistaken though.[/QUOTE] That's where the internal design and pistons of the caliper matters. From valves, diameter of piping, routing, etc. If the research is ample and the development of the calipers are done correctly, then you'll have one awesome caliper. Think of it as being as effiecient as possible with the pressure of the master cylinder you get when the brakes are applied. It's that wonderful world of math of amount of the area of clamping force vs. amount of the clamping force in the allowed brake pad area. For example: If your brake pads are 8 square inches of area and your calipers produce 500 PSI, you would get 4,000 PSI of clamping force If you happen to get a big brake kit that goes with brakes pads sized at 10 square inches of brake pad area, and your calipers are now bigger but only produces 450 PSI, you still get 4500 PSI of clamping force. See how it works? Of course, it's a LOT more complicated than what I explained, but you get the idea. But the whole reason behind BBKs is that you need enough brake power to lock up the brakes.. which means you have so much brake power that you can overcome the force (mass x [de]acceleration) of the car and the grip of the tires. Well, you get the idea guys. I also say the GT does need some pads at least (even after a tire upgrade) due to the mass of the car. Until Racecomp Engineering or ApexJapan have something in terms of NON-Brembo brake pad upgrades, BBKs are the next step up for upgrading the car in terms of brakes. I think even the Brembo STi Legacy brakes only run street pads (IMO, "whoop-de-do"). If the brake rotors, brake calipers, and the cooling design isnt that much of an upgrade, the pads are just going to cook anyways. Keefe

[apexjapan]

[quote name='Xenonk']Until Racecomp Engineering or AApexJapan have something in terms of NON-Brembo brake pad upgrades, BBKs are the next step up for upgrading the car in terms of brakes. I think even the Brembo STi Legacy brakes only run street pads (IMO, "whoop-de-do"). If the brake rotors, brake calipers, and the cooling design isnt that much of an upgrade, the pads are just going to cook anyways.[/QUOTE] BTW, there is STi pads for the standard brakes. Definitely street pads, though, but a minor upgrade. The price isn't minor, though. :o Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url]

[gtguy]

[quote name='apexjapan']It takes me approx. 20-30 minutes to stretch the standard brakes lines like the single condom at a late night footballer party. Give me a good road in the mountains or a stint at the track, and after that point, SS lines will definitely have me stopping in a shorter difference than those lines. After one of our track sessions at twin ring motegi, one driver basically had no brakes left, and after trying to drive home with them like that, ended up peeling a front fender off on a pole because of a wanker that forced him to do overtime with the brakes - and they were not there. We all learned from that, and one of our first additions is SS lines when we get a new car. But that is because we track the cars. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url][/QUOTE] Are the lines stretched or is the fluid fried? Kevin

[apexjapan]

It was a bit of both, I think. Hard to really measure, and to be honest, for the peace of mind while doing track racing, I'll just do both. A set of brake pads can cost more than the SS lines and fluid. :| Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url]

[highwaydrifter]

i love the BBK haters on this forum, that and the horsepower haters.. make me want to laugh at them. here is a test for you guys.... who do you think will stop faster Both cars driving on the street and some asshole infront of you slams on his brakes (he drives a lotus elise so he stops before you do) so in order to avoid a fatal crash (your car is loaded to the brim with 100 year old sticks of dynamite so if you even tap his car boom you and half the block is dead) Stock brake system with r compound tires Stop tech 4 pot BBK all the way around with SS lines, and pads Nuff said... I drove the later on my WRX and even with some POS tires on the car it would damn near outbrake any car on the road... How many of you BBK haters have actually driven a car with a BBK on it? just curious...

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='highwaydrifter']i love the BBK haters on this forum, that and the horsepower haters.. make me want to laugh at them. here is a test for you guys.... who do you think will stop faster Both cars driving on the street and some asshole infront of you slams on his brakes (he drives a lotus elise so he stops before you do) so in order to avoid a fatal crash (your car is loaded to the brim with 100 year old sticks of dynamite so if you even tap his car boom you and half the block is dead) Stock brake system with r compound tires Stop tech 4 pot BBK all the way around with SS lines, and pads Nuff said... I drove the later on my WRX and even with some POS tires on the car it would damn near outbrake any car on the road... How many of you BBK haters have actually driven a car with a BBK on it? just curious...[/QUOTE] Stock brake system with r compound tires Almost any factory braking system is capable of ONE balls-out stop from 65 mph. Yes I've driven a car with a BBK, until you do a lot of repeated braking it's not going to make any difference. Most people are going to panic stop with ABS anyway, forget pedal feel. If you want to understand a complex condition like this it helps to look at the limits of the function. One being a car with stock brakes vs BBK driving on sheet ice at 0 F. How much difference do you think they will make here?

[paul_858]

Very true. Most stock brake systems are very capable of stopping the car in an emergency situation, resulting in good stopping distances. The only problem is that all stock brake systems minus high end sport cars will fade with repeated use, say canyon run, or track day. Tires won't fix that. [quote name='gtguy']The. Legacy. Doesn't. Need. A. Big. Brake. Kit. A Hyundai Sonata running R compounds will easily outbrake a GT with stock rubber, and a BBK. But the GT will look cooler, that's for sure. :D Kevin[/QUOTE]

[paul_858]

I would bet good money that a stock brake with warmed up R compound will outbrake your brembo 4pot BBK car any day of the week. Reason? you'll be at the braking limits of the tires well before the stock brake system on r compound. How do I know? I've done plenty of research when looking for brake systems on my A4. At the european car s4 challenge last year, the car with the shortest stopping distance is a stock brake(upgraded pads) on r rubber. Why? Because with a full 4 wheel bbk, you end up losing the braking balance needed to minimize stopping distances. Manufacturers design their brake systems to be as balanced while minimizing brake distances, not the best brakes for track day. Btw I have BBK and I do run R compounds, BBK + R rubber > any setup with street tires PERIOD. [quote name='highwaydrifter'] Stock brake system with r compound tires Stop tech 4 pot BBK all the way around with SS lines, and pads Nuff said... I drove the later on my WRX and even with some POS tires on the car it would damn near outbrake any car on the road... How many of you BBK haters have actually driven a car with a BBK on it? just curious...[/QUOTE]

[highwaydrifter]

riiighhhhtttttt one stop doesnt get you far in real life buddy the second you boil the fluid or warp a rotor due to over heating (hope to god it isnt just one stop that does the latter) your entire braking system just degraded in over all capacity. Take the above scenario and repeat it a few times. On a sheet of ice the tires with the most traction will win hands down, but when you are looking at surfaces where traction isnt the largest issue such things as clamping force surface area vs pad and the works come into play more so then the tires. I could lock my tires up with 17's and my es100's, but with the stop techs and es100's i shaved off shit loads of space when stoping from 80. Wasnt the tires that were the issue as i was using the same set, i just had MORE clamping force with the BBK vs the stockers. Does that make sense? Plus i didnt have to use as much pedal to stop her (again leverage comes into play as well as surface area for the pad to meet the rotor which increases the actual fricition, which as i am sure you know the more fricition area you have the faster you will stop so long as you dont glaze the pads over and reduce the friction co effiecent). Anyways my points is this, a BBK will give you MORE bite with and better OVER ALL STOPPING PERFORMANCE then a STOCK braking SYSTEM with the SAME tires. I dont see how you can debate that.. As for r compounds on stock brakes vs a BBK on stock (read decent) tires under normal conditions (no ice or oil slick bullshit) i feel that the bbk will produce the better braking numbers and feel over all. Have i run scientific tests to prove my theories? Nope all i have done is drive my car with stock brakes and 17's then slap on the stop techs. (actually i took them off and then went back to stock) Night and day... same tires same car same rims, hell even after the stockers got properly bedded i could still feel the difference...

[paul_858]

no argument that on repeated braking sessions BBK will outperform stock brakes. It's the reason why we get them for motorsports. For day to day driving, the stock brakes with good pads and tires are plenty. Having too much braking force can cause one axle to lock up prior to the other one. One reason race cars run with adjustable brake bias. Look at it this way, does a stock car have any issues with a person panic braking and locking up the tires? Do you think your BBK does it that much quicker that your brake distance is that much better? Again look at it from a 1 stop scenario not a track scenario. I'm not arguing a race situation. both brake systems will easily lock up the wheels, which means you're now at the limit of your tires to slow you down. Like i said, stock brakes, R compound warmed up will outbrake bbk with your now "decent" tires.

[highwaydrifter]

i would love to read some technical data to support both sides (im baseing my view off my own described experiences)...

[Xenonk]

[quote name='apexjapan']BTW, there is STi pads for the standard brakes. Definitely street pads, though, but a minor upgrade. The price isn't minor, though. :o Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url][/QUOTE] Do you know if it's preferable to Gymkhana events? I am looking for something that is has a high operating temps but require no warm up time. I could care less if it dusts a lot or squeals a lot. I am looking for something that can handle high performance street driving up to very light track pads. Do you have specs of what those pads operating temperatures are? Do they require bedding? Keefe

[RobY]

[quote name='emlevins']OK - help me understand why the WRX brakes shorter than the LGT when both have RE-92s. Is it that the WRX has 16" and the LGT 17" tires? Are stopping distances shorter on 16" vs. 17" tires? Do the 16" tires on the WRX have a "softer sloppier sidewall" than the LGT's 17"? If the WRX has an "inferior brake system" but the same "type" tire as the LGT, I do not understand the roughly 15' difference in 60-0 braking between the two cars in favor of the WRX. I will confess to being ignorant about the mechanical aspects of braking and what the equipment is on the respective cars. I'll take your word that the LGT has "superior" equipment. All I know is what I read in the tests (and the two cars have the SAME tire, though different sizes, and the WRX brakes shorter) and my subjective feel, having driven both cars (and my experience "feels" like the WRX stops quicker than the LGT). There HAVE to be alot of other variables that affect braking besides the rotors, pads, tires, etc. What other differences between the cars would account for the WRX advantage?[/QUOTE] First off the stock tire pressure is lower in the WRX and the aspect ratio higher. Also the RE-92's on the WRX run a diffrent compound than the RE-92's on the LGT. The compound on the LGT is Z rated whereas the WRX compund is not. I also beleive it has been stated in the past that that there are dozens of diffrent compunds for the supposedly same tire. In LINEAR tractive situations more traction tends to be favored towards a tire that will flex to conform to its surface. This is the principle behind drag radials. Why do they run small rims and low pressures? For more LINEAR traction. The sidewall flex is able to conform to the track surface and absorb the energy of linear acceleration. Drag radials have HUGE contact patches witht he ground for this very reason. Compare this to a low aspect street tire. If you pump up a 45 aspect street tire to 40 psi it is going to flex a heck of less and offer LESS linear traction. However you will get better lateral traction (AKA. cornering ability). The contact patch going in the anterior posterior plane is small becuse it has no give and thus is unable to conform to the asphalt. Need a visual... The contact patch of a tire is rectangular. We wil view 2 planes the left right plane and the anterior posterior plane. Try to visualize this... Pretend the car is parked on a peice of glass and you are under it watching from below. If you downpressure a tire (or the sidewalls are sloppy) the contact patch anteriorly posteriorly becomes larger. Visualize yourself deflating the tire and watching the contact patch grow from front to back.. Now visualize a lower aspect tire that is completely deflated and start pumping it up to 40 psi. Do you see by the time you are done the contact patch in the anterior posterior plane becomes smaller? Now the reason why sports cars use low aspect tires... When you were doing all your pumping did the right/ left plane of the contact patch change much? No... draw your own conclusions. Its really a simple physycal concept... if both brake systems are able of locking up the tires which almost all cars are... This means the force against the rotors is GREATER than the force that can be absorbed at the road tire interface.... By default because issac newton wouldent have it any other way... The surface interface between the road and the tire automaticly becomes the limiting factor. Thats it folks... friction is simple don't complicate it.

[apexjapan]

[quote name='Xenonk']Do you know if it's preferable to Gymkhana events? I am looking for something that is has a high operating temps but require no warm up time. [/QUOTE] I don't feel so. In all the STi brake pads I've sampled in the past, they have mainly been a more aggressive than stock compound, but not by much. And they tend towards more of a circuit pad than a gymkhana pad - took a while to warm up. Definitely need to be bedded in. You'll need a rather soft pad compound for gymkhana, short life/high grip pads like the Titan Kai's we were using on the older legacies. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url]

[Xenonk]

[quote name='highwaydrifter']Anyways my points is this, a BBK will give you MORE bite with and better OVER ALL STOPPING PERFORMANCE then a STOCK braking SYSTEM with the SAME tires. I dont see how you can debate that.. [/QUOTE] But we are not debating about that, we are debating about the cost-effectiveness of upgraded tires and pads vs BBKs on their own with RE92s. $600 to $800 in tires and pads vs $1500 on just the front set of BBKs with stock tires... the point is that for a lot less, you can gain just that much out of the already good brakes of the GT.. when you DO drive the GT at the track with stock pads, they will glaze, and well, it's cuz the the pads are meant for street use. And BBKs with street compounds dont gain anymore performance than stock brakes with street compounds.. the real COST-EFFECTIVENESS from BBKs is when you go with TRACK PADS and BIG ROTORS AND LOTS OF COOLING SURFACE which a stock brake setup will not allow you have. Ever try braking using BBKs with track pads? Or track pads at all for daily driving? It'll slide a bit more alright in the first few minutes if you dont get them up to operating temps.. every car part mod has their purpose.. From what I see, if you are track-whore, BBKs are no doubt a way to go. If you dont see yourself on the track, stock brakes with a few minor pads and tire upgrades and fluids are all you need (just buy a lot of pads and replace them if you are going to jump on them now and then). There is NO JUSTIFICATION TO SPEND TWICE THE AMOUNT FOR A BBK if you can't stop HALF THE DISTANCE from stock brakes. That's how I see fit. From Kevin's point of view, none of us should be tailgating, flying ridiculously fast on public roads to jam on the brakes hard enough to get the ABS to kick in on a daily basis.. and I agree with Kevin on this, if you can't stop your car, you shouldnt be on the road to begin with.. brakes are worthless if the driver doesnt know how to use them to their advantage. Don't change the debate around ;) :p Keefe

[Xenonk]

[quote name='apexjapan']You'll need a rather soft pad compound for gymkhana, short life/high grip pads like the Titan Kai's we were using on the older legacies. Cheers, Paul Hansen [url]www.avoturboworld.com[/url] [url]www.apexjapan.com[/url][/QUOTE] Sounds like the right compound Paul.. do you know if the Titan Kai's will continue their pads onto the BL/BP brakes? Keefe

[gtguy]

[quote name='highwaydrifter']i love the BBK haters on this forum, that and the horsepower haters.. make me want to laugh at them. here is a test for you guys.... who do you think will stop faster Both cars driving on the street and some asshole infront of you slams on his brakes (he drives a lotus elise so he stops before you do) so in order to avoid a fatal crash (your car is loaded to the brim with 100 year old sticks of dynamite so if you even tap his car boom you and half the block is dead) Stock brake system with r compound tires Stop tech 4 pot BBK all the way around with SS lines, and pads Nuff said... I drove the later on my WRX and even with some POS tires on the car it would damn near outbrake any car on the road... How many of you BBK haters have actually driven a car with a BBK on it? just curious...[/QUOTE] Stock brakes with R compounds, by a long shot. Your stock car with the fancy BBK and RE-92s will ABS its way right into the rear of the Elise, and... KA-BOOM! My contention is to own up to mods. If you want a BBK because it looks cool, that's fine. No worries. But people come up with all sorts of "scientific" explanations to justify something they want. Yes, BBKs look cool. No, people (well, sane ones) don't drive around with R compounds on their car. Yes, BBKs don't make a significant difference in the stopping power of a car. They will make a difference in repeated, high-speed stops, such as the kind you encounter on the track. And don't forget that braking technique counts a lot for how well a car slows down. Some people know how to threshold brake, some don't. We learned threshold braking, as well as the most effective way to brake, at Skippy School. What a difference it makes when the proper technique is used, and it is something that requires practice. Kevin