So how much are big brake kits going to run for the LegacyGT?

[NewScooby]

NewScooby's top 3 reasons to fix your LGT Brakes All info taken for Car and Driver magazine The Legacy GT stops from 70mph in 196 ft. Reason #1. KIA Spectra in 183ft ($16,000 econobox) Reason #2. Buick Rainier V-8 CXL in 191ft (Your Great Grandpa can out brake you) Reason #3. Ford Expedition in 188ft. ( Holy Shit, have you seen the size of this thing) For all you guys that think the brakes on the LGT are fine, just go get some tires are dead wrong in my opinion. The LGT is not heavy, the tires cant be any worse than the tires on the above mentioned non-performance vehicles, which leads me to believe that larger calipers, better pads are needed more than tires on the LGT, I'm not saying tires wont help, just not that much. Just my .02 Did you all know the Saturn Ion Redline out brakes or beloved WRX STI by 4 ft. The STI must have shitty tires. :lol:

[gtguy]

[quote name='NewScooby']NewScooby's top 3 reasons to fix your LGT Brakes All info taken for Car and Driver magazine The Legacy GT stops from 70mph in 196 ft. Reason #1. KIA Spectra in 183ft ($16,000 econobox) Reason #2. Buick Rainier V-8 CXL in 191ft (Your Great Grandpa can out brake you) Reason #3. Ford Expedition in 188ft. ( Holy Shit, have you seen the size of this thing) For all you guys that think the brakes on the LGT are fine, just go get some tires are dead wrong in my opinion. The LGT is not heavy, the tires cant be any worse than the tires on the above mentioned non-performance vehicles, which leads me to believe that larger calipers, better pads are needed more than tires on the LGT, I'm not saying tires wont help, just not that much. Just my .02 Did you all know the Saturn Ion Redline out brakes or beloved WRX STI by 4 ft. The STI must have shitty tires. :lol:[/QUOTE] Wow. So the STi must need more brakes than its big, giant Brembo kit. What kind of fancy brakes does that Saturn Ion have on it? :lol: Perhaps 8-piston calipers and 15" rotors? Or maybe the STi should have a pair of drag chutes that deploy from the bumper. Further, the Ion Redline coupe is what? 2600 lbs? That's a significant weight difference from the STi. Of course it will stop shorter, as more mass will take more time to slow down. But here's what I know: Hard stop from 60 mph on stock tires, ABS goes off, car seems to take forever to stop. Hard stop from 60 mph, same road, same wheels (stock) Dunlop 9000 tires, no ABS, car stops nice and short, Griot's Garage Speed Shine finds its way to front seat (never attempt with the seats down). I'm fine with tires. :D Kevin

[paul_858]

Hey come on, i'm perfectly sane. :) I live in socal, so driving on R compounds year round isn't that bad.. :lol: [quote name='gtguy']Yes, BBKs look cool. No, people (well, sane ones) don't drive around with R compounds on their car. Kevin[/QUOTE]

[paul_858]

The LegacyGT is heavy compared to the kia btw. Like I said earlier, having a balanced brakes is key to minimizing stopping distance. If one set of wheels lock up before the other you're losing braking capability. I haven't driven the LGT yet so I can't say how it behaves say against my current car (Audi A4, Brembo BBK, Toyo RA1s) but when I do I'll chime back in and let you guys know what I think [quote name='NewScooby']NewScooby's top 3 reasons to fix your LGT Brakes All info taken for Car and Driver magazine The Legacy GT stops from 70mph in 196 ft. Reason #1. KIA Spectra in 183ft ($16,000 econobox) Reason #2. Buick Rainier V-8 CXL in 191ft (Your Great Grandpa can out brake you) Reason #3. Ford Expedition in 188ft. ( Holy Shit, have you seen the size of this thing) For all you guys that think the brakes on the LGT are fine, just go get some tires are dead wrong in my opinion. The LGT is not heavy, the tires cant be any worse than the tires on the above mentioned non-performance vehicles, which leads me to believe that larger calipers, better pads are needed more than tires on the LGT, I'm not saying tires wont help, just not that much. Just my .02 Did you all know the Saturn Ion Redline out brakes or beloved WRX STI by 4 ft. The STI must have shitty tires. :lol:[/QUOTE]

[gtguy]

[quote name='paul_858']Hey come on, i'm perfectly sane. :) I live in socal, so driving on R compounds year round isn't that bad.. :lol:[/QUOTE] YOU might be, but a friend of mine who drove around with Rs on an old-school M3 in the Chicago area...his sanity is still in question. The car was cool, though. Kevin

[NewScooby]

So why does the Expidition out brake the LGT? My dad drives a VW Toureg with I believe 6 piston front brakes, this 2 ton beast will outbreak my LGT, please dont tell me the dunlop AT tires are the key to good braking. :confused: [quote name='paul_858']The LegacyGT is heavy compared to the kia btw. Like I said earlier, having a balanced brakes is key to minimizing stopping distance. If one set of wheels lock up before the other you're losing braking capability. I haven't driven the LGT yet so I can't say how it behaves say against my current car (Audi A4, Brembo BBK, Toyo RA1s) but when I do I'll chime back in and let you guys know what I think[/QUOTE]

[RobY]

simple physycal concept guys... if your tires lock up your brakes ARENT a problem... Its very easy to understand you will only stop as fast as your least tractive surface. Yes all terrain tires especially siped ones are VERY tractive linerally. I used to be into some real hardcore offroading. Some offorad tires will climb you straight up a vertical wall. They just suck if you decide to take some turns. So does sombody wanna tell me the diffrence between a BBK with 20 inch rotors that lock up the stock tires to the point of ABS acivation vs a Brake with 9 inch rotors that lock up the tires to the point of ABS activation... ??? Absolutely nothing... Now dont get me wrong Im not saying that a 9inch rotor is better than a 20inch bbk. If you decide to brake more than once in rapid sucession, or use tires that exceed the frictional force of a 9 inch system the 20inch BBK wil shine. The point is that they are both providing enough force to arrest roational movement to the point that it exceeds the capability of the tire. The only reason why you SHOULD get a BBK is if you are running slicks or R compund tires with race pads and are a track nut who needs better cooling and fade resistance. In this case the tractive force exceeds of the tire the capability of the stock brake system. Take my word on this one the RE-92's especially in a harder compound is REALLY REALLY bad. Please read my post above on WHY cars with higher profile tires and sloppy sidewalls brake better. It will all make sense at the end.

[praedet]

Man this discussion just goes on and on, and the people who don't understand, just don't seem to truly get it. Time for analogies. I even color-coded it for you... So, let’s assume you are running at a full sprint. (roughly 12-18 mph for the average person) The maximum force you can apply with your legs to stop is F. Now, with running shoes on, on wet grass, it takes say 20 ft to stop without sliding or falling. During that 20ft you can only apply X amount of force using your legs, because if you apply greater force, you slide and fall. X < F So, [B][COLOR=Red]Stock[/COLOR][/B], [B][COLOR=Blue]Stopping Distance: 20 ft [/COLOR][/B] Now here come the variables. [COLOR=Red][B]Set-up 1 (Better Tires):[/B][/COLOR] If you take the exact same case and put cleats on those same running shoes, you could actually apply > X force, Y, using your legs due to the higher coefficient of friction. But lets assume that the force that is Y is still less than the maximum force you can create with your legs, so X < Y < F. [B][COLOR=Blue]Stopping Distance: 12 ft[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=Red][B]Set-up 2 (A BBK):[/B][/COLOR] Take the same original set-up and let’s say you have been working out for 3 months. You can now exert force G with your legs where G > F. You sprint and stop, but sadly, you can only apply X without slipping, so even though you can apply more force than before, you are limited to X again, the same as with your puny legs. [B][COLOR=Blue]Stopping Distance: 20ft[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR=Red][B]Set-up 3 (Larger/softer sidewalls):[/B][/COLOR] Original set-up, but this time you have running shoes that deform and go from a size 10 during normal use to a size 12 under high force. (stopping, starting) Now, ignoring hydroplaning possibilities, the size 12 contact area reduces the force applied to the ground through your shoe, so if you exert X force, the ground see < X. But, because we can apply up to X force to the ground, we can now apply > X with our legs, but e\we are still under our maximum force F. [B][COLOR=Blue]Stopping Distance: 17 ft[/COLOR][/B] So, now applying this to the good ole’ Legacy, ABS matches our mentioned characteristics above by creating a braking situation with no slip at the limit of the surface. With the same tires, unless you ARE NOT ABLE TO ACTIVATE ABS, the stopping distance is the same. It doesn’t matter much force your BBK can create. The car can’t use it past the traction levels of the tires and conditions. I don’t think anyone applying the brakes from 60 (unless on R compounds) will have any problem hitting ABS with the stock brakes. Applying this to the other mentioned vehicles. The taller the sidewall, (and the softer) the more it can deform to make a larger contact patch. The WRX has a taller sidewall. I would put a good bit of money that during high braking and acceleration loads, the contact patch on the WRX is LARGER than that of the Legacy. Now imagine the sidewall flex on that SUV of yours. Does this mean the SUV or the WRX have better brakes? NO. If you still believe that, look at the specs for the braking system of the R32 and its weight. Compare its stopping distances with the STI and EVO. The R32’s system is almost identical to the Legacy, the only difference being the tires. Oh yeah, and if you say that your BBK changes the bias for the better, I simply ask whether it is set-up for stock suspension or a modified suspension. Every time you stiffen up the suspension, you bias the brakes to the rear. If a BBK is more rear biased with stock suspension than the stock Legacy brakes, it is almost guaranteed to lock up the rears when you upgrade the suspension. The stock braking system is set-up on the slightly safe side of F/R bias, (in other words, your fronts would probably lock up before the rears so you wouldn’t change directions) but it is set-up real close to perfect for the stock suspension. Subaru included ABS and the brake distribution algorithms to allow the brakes to be proportioned for maximum stopping force at each tire. These algorithms were developed for the stock system. A BBK has the possibility of screwing up the algorithms, creating a braking system that doesn’t perform optimally. Any other things? I drive a car with a completely upgraded calipers and rotors right now, but, it is the exact system put on this car elsewhere in the world. The only non-oem parts are the pads, lines, and brake fluid. Is the stopping better that before? Depends on what tires I have on. I don’t have ABS, so I can certainly lock up all 4 tires at 100+ if I want to which I couldn’t do with the stock car, but with my Nokian WRs at 70, I could lock up front and rear with the original brakes too. So stopping distance is the same from 70 on those for sure. I can modulate the force better, but unless I have my good tires on, the only difference is feel and heat dissipation. And of course the [B]BLING[/B], which is why most people do it anyway… Ted

[paul_858]

Hehe this is refreshing to see an actual discussion without people going nuts.

[NewScooby]

Thanks PRAEDET, I cant say I agree with you completely, but my thick skull is absorbing some of this. I like the feel of good brakes, my dad has 2 vehicles with much better brake feel than my LGT, and these definately add to my confusion of brakes. Car #1) 2400lb 427 Cobra replica with C4 Corvette brakes. No ABS, this light car stops in a hurry. BF Goodrich Radial TA's with approx. 400 tread wear. Not performance tires, std passanger car tires. Car #2) 2004 VW Toureg 6 piston front brakes, Heavy, over 4000 lbs. It stops as good as a LGT and has a much more confident feel to me. I'm not in it for the Bling aspect, my car will see many autocrosses and after it is paid for some track time. I am interested in bang for the buck, pads are going to be my first after winter project. I am curious if the factory ABS system will work better with the addition of the STI pink springs (reduced front end dive) which I plan on adding. I have thick skin as well as a think skull, so dont hold back!:lol:

[RobY]

NewScooby... I think what you are looking for is better inital bite... Subaru passenger car brake compounds tend to be more on the mild side for reduced noise and wear. I beleive COBB has some sport compounds available now Some SS lines will stiffen up the system as well. Dont underestimate know how much a a diffrence a new set of tires make on this car. I think the problem is that the stock rubber screeches, complains or plain locks up when you push the pedal 1/4 the way down. Its not very confidence inspiring. It tends to program your mind to be light on the brakes and thus the perceived notion of ineffective brakes. Once you get some real tires on the car you will tend to be more agressive with the pedal.

[Xenonk]

[quote name='NewScooby']NewScooby's top 3 reasons to fix your LGT Brakes All info taken for Car and Driver magazine The Legacy GT stops from 70mph in 196 ft. Reason #1. KIA Spectra in 183ft ($16,000 econobox) Reason #2. Buick Rainier V-8 CXL in 191ft (Your Great Grandpa can out brake you) Reason #3. Ford Expedition in 188ft. ( Holy Shit, have you seen the size of this thing) For all you guys that think the brakes on the LGT are fine, just go get some tires are dead wrong in my opinion. The LGT is not heavy, the tires cant be any worse than the tires on the above mentioned non-performance vehicles, which leads me to believe that larger calipers, better pads are needed more than tires on the LGT, I'm not saying tires wont help, just not that much. Just my .02 Did you all know the Saturn Ion Redline out brakes or beloved WRX STI by 4 ft. The STI must have shitty tires. :lol:[/QUOTE] Turn off the ABS or do threshold braking.. then we'll see who stops faster.. Keefe

[Xenonk]

[quote name='NewScooby']So why does the Expidition out brake the LGT? My dad drives a VW Toureg with I believe 6 piston front brakes, this 2 ton beast will outbreak my LGT, please dont tell me the dunlop AT tires are the key to good braking. :confused:[/QUOTE] Contact patch of rubber and type of compound to mass ratio.. Think of it as throwing out a tiny anchor out to stop a little boat vs. throwing out a HUGE massed anchor (surface area) for a larger boat.. eventually you'll see that there's a ratio to deal with here. There's a big math portion to figuring out what makes it stop. Keefe

[praedet]

And surprisingly, something I, and the rest of those in the "know" have forgotten to mention... Unless all the vehicles mentioned are stopped at the same place, at the same time, the "stopping distances" from magazines etc. are invalid. The surface (place where the test takes place) has to be the same for the distances to be even slightly comparable. (gravel vs asphalt, asphalt vs concrete, etc.) AND, even with the same surface, the ambient conditions must be the same. An extremely hot day makes rubber softer, (stickier) a humid day can make a surface slightly slick, a cool day can make high performance tires hard, (slippery) etc. Obviously rain or snow, or recent rain or snow can make a difference. Even with the identical surface and ambient conditions, the temperature of the surface or the “condition” of the surface (light coating of oil, gas, rubber, etc.) can make a difference. So, the bench-racing we always do gets even more invalid if we look at different tests for our comparisons. And, I really think most of you are talking about feel. Do what Keefe said, try some pads with more initial bite, and change the tires. Guaranteed you will be run over by that VW SUV when you hit the brakes. (The Cobra is about 1Klb lighter with probably better or equivalent brakes, and larger sidewalls/tire diameter, there is not much you can do about that) Ted

[NewScooby]

OK, OK, OK On my drive home through the country today I did three back to back 80mph-10 mph slowdowns by mashing the brakes. I stand corrected, I left tire marks the whole way with the ABS on the entire time. My previous Camaro with 275/35/18 Kumhos I dont think would set off the ABS at 80, I never really needed to though. I will be buying a set of 225/45/17's gumballs in the spring. I'm still going to autocross my bone stock LGT in 3 weeks against my friends STI and S2000. Nice and smooth, I'm dumb enough to think I have a chance!

[gtguy]

[quote name='praedet']And surprisingly, something I, and the rest of those in the "know" have forgotten to mention... Unless all the vehicles mentioned are stopped at the same place, at the same time, the "stopping distances" from magazines etc. are invalid.Ted[/QUOTE] That's why I use the same stretches of road for things like testing mods, acceleration, braking, etc. It's also how I know (as posted above) that the GT stops a lot better on the Dunlops than the Bridgestones. The other thing is who knows if a magazine got a hammered tester or not? Too many variables, really. Kevin

[RobY]

[quote name='NewScooby']OK, OK, OK On my drive home through the country today I did three back to back 80mph-10 mph slowdowns by mashing the brakes. I stand corrected, I left tire marks the whole way with the ABS on the entire time. My previous Camaro with 275/35/18 Kumhos I dont think would set off the ABS at 80, I never really needed to though. I will be buying a set of 225/45/17's gumballs in the spring. I'm still going to autocross my bone stock LGT in 3 weeks against my friends STI and S2000. Nice and smooth, I'm dumb enough to think I have a chance![/QUOTE] Lockup at 80... Scary isnt it :D I remember the first time doing that I was like WTF??!?! Did I hit a patch of sand or somthing... Looked back... nothing but perfectly smooth 80 degree asphalt on a sunny day. Thats when I concluded that YEP the RE-92's in the new Z rating suck too... This is what you have when you put a decade old tire usually used for cars with half the horsepower and half the brake on a car with 12+ inch rotors up front and 11+ inch rotors rear vented all around.

[apexjapan2]

[quote name='NewScooby']OK, OK, OK On my drive home through the country today I did three back to back 80mph-10 mph slowdowns by mashing the brakes. I stand corrected, I left tire marks the whole way with the ABS on the entire time. My previous Camaro with 275/35/18 Kumhos I dont think would set off the ABS at 80, I never really needed to though. I will be buying a set of 225/45/17's gumballs in the spring. I'm still going to autocross my bone stock LGT in 3 weeks against my friends STI and S2000. Nice and smooth, I'm dumb enough to think I have a chance![/QUOTE] There are a few people who drive around on std sized stuff and get BBK performance too :D A whole bucket load of cash less than a BBK too;) <shh - don't tell the sellers on this site I told ya> ;););) <- off to pick up a new set of gumballs. Cheers :)

[apexjapan2]

[quote name='paul_858']Hehe this is refreshing to see an actual discussion without people going nuts.[/QUOTE] I hope it stays like that! We tried, and mostly were succesful in maintaining that on the Yahoo legacyb4 group. It certainly makes for a nicer and more productive atmosphere. Let's hope it continues :)