STG Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Even race engineers get it wrong at times, remember the flying Mercs at Le Mans a few years back ? Anyone know if the Legacy actually generates downforce at speed ? Ask Underdog. He's not only identified all the Legacy's weak points, but has fixed them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STG Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 PM me if you want some help with logic skills Somehow I don't think you have as much knowledge of the subject as the professors who taught logic at the Jesuit university where I earned two degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STG Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 ^^ jesuit unversity? Now everything is becoming clear Trust me, my logic skills are quite above par I'll have to trust you. They are not apparant in your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.T.Subie Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 STG you make good points but your attitude that you are the only one that knows anything on the subject makes you so confrontational. Denial is your best friend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWDBat Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Let's keep it civil gentlemen (?) - or maybe you should take it to your private messages. I thought the thread was focusing on crosswinds not hot air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/CLR_Flip.jpg http://www.motorpride.com/VideoGallery/Default.asp?SiteID=340 Double Award Winning Legacy GT Wagon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWDBat Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Damn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STG Posted December 30, 2006 Share Posted December 30, 2006 Don't worry. Your Stage 3.7689 Legacy won't come anywhere near V1. (The best part was his landing in a tree.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted December 31, 2006 Share Posted December 31, 2006 Well. I was just driving home in the snow... (just a dusting so far...) and the car did not lose grip. but it definitely was being blown a bit. It isn't a matter of drastic problem. it isn't a matter of poor driving or lack of control. It isn't even a lack of grip. It is the fact that the car's profile gets pushed by the wind, the same as any other... but the suspension doesn't resist it as well as other cars. (neither my miata nor my Ranger pickup do this to the same degree, and they are smaller/lighter and bigger/heavier respectively.) The suspension and steering allow the car to be moved a degree or two off of the intended course, and with gusts, it tends to be very intermittent. Camber, caster, and toe. Alignment. Those, I am fairly sure, are the keys. Not to mention that the car has no high-speed damping, and sharp bumps (even small ones) hit through the suspension into the chassis too much. a simple pavement surface change can sound and feel like a major event. Camber plates. LCA Caster bushings. Rear sway bar, possibly. other suspension bushings, wheels with a more complimentary offset to the scrub radius, and struts with some high speed damping capability, and springs that will keep the car level would be nice. suspension braces to maintain geometry... all seem like good ideas to me. but some of that should have been dialed in from the factory, like enough caster to self-center the steering, and reduce this wind-inuced wandering, enough high-speed damping, and sturdy enough springs and anti-roll bars... Cost cutting at it's finest. Thanks again, SOA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 Well. I was just driving home in the snow... (just a dusting so far...) and the car did not lose grip. but it definitely was being blown a bit. It isn't a matter of drastic problem. it isn't a matter of poor driving or lack of control. It isn't even a lack of grip. It is the fact that the car's profile gets pushed by the wind, the same as any other... but the suspension doesn't resist it as well as other cars. (neither my miata nor my Ranger pickup do this to the same degree, and they are smaller/lighter and bigger/heavier respectively.) The suspension and steering allow the car to be moved a degree or two off of the intended course, and with gusts, it tends to be very intermittent. Camber, caster, and toe. Alignment. Those, I am fairly sure, are the keys. You are lucky if you get the car with balance wheels from the dealership, who knows about alignment, or any other adjustables (i.e. headlights, the list goes on) When I got my car: -bad alignment -head lights aimed too high by probably 20-30 degrees -fog lights hit the ground < 6 feet (the whole beam) -no washer fluid -wheels > 1oz off balance -oil overfilled -power steering fluid low What am I trying to say? Get an alignment, and report back. Not to mention that the car has no high-speed damping, and sharp bumps (even small ones) hit through the suspension into the chassis too much. a simple pavement surface change can sound and feel like a major event. This is exactly the opposite of what you describe. Lots of high-speed damping, therefore you feel everything that is high-speed. but some of that should have been dialed in from the factory, Indiana? meh.. Most of this stuff is supposed to be checked by the dealership.. there's a copy of the dealership check list floating around here somewhere. They do none of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinasu Posted January 1, 2007 Share Posted January 1, 2007 I've noticed the LGT gets pushed around a bit as well. I was thinking soft subframe and control arm bushings? The LGT is setup pretty plush. Not to mention the strut tower bushings.. lots of ways to flex with a bit of wind force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 On the comment about high speed damping... I am under the impression that dampers dampened suspension action. As in slowed and absorbed action and minimized impact. High speed damping is where the dampers (and complimentary spring rates) let the suspension absorb sharp motions, by contracting and rebounding quickly. High shock compression and extension speeds, regardless of vehicle ground speed. When the strut/shock resists quick movements, it stays more rigid when sharp, quick bumps are encountered, and they don't dampen the shock much at all... (think of a radio flyer wagon, or something with no suspension at all... everything gets transmitted into the structure/chassis, high or low speed damping is non existant.) The thing is, that is at odds with low-speed damping, where the shock wants to be somewhat resistant to slower oscillating movements of the shock or strut, instead of floating and loose. Old cadillacs and luxury cars that "float" have no low-speed damping, and are often SO loose that they have great high-speed damping. You could drive over concrete K-rails and not notice. Most budget sport suspension setups err toward the initial low speed damping and stiffer spring rates to minimize roll, and provide that "tight" sporting feel. Meanwile sacrificing some smoothness for harsh bump-control, and a bit of a jarring ride. The "nice" thing about the legacy, is that even without high-speed damping, and slightly vauge on-center steering that can be manipulated by road or wind forces, they didn't even really stiffen the roll control with spring rates or anti-roll bars. A compromize with little upside. Unfortunately, most cars go beyond this with weight. The cars weigh so much that stiff springs must be used to hold the car up, and give it any kind of sporty feel. With heavy cars, and stiff springs, dampers are usually unable to cope under that kind of tension. Light weight cars need less spring rate, and leave the dampers to do their jobs. It isn't all that bad, really, and is this car is pretty respectable, but the power level this car has deserves a bit more, as well as better brake feedback. Then it would really be great. Luckily those parts can be added, although I am really kind of dissappointed to hear that the Bilstein Spec B struts and shocks still aren't really good with high-speed damping, either. I had higher hopes for that solution, rather than coil-overs, which are usually also focused more on low-speed damping, just at a higher level, with spring pre-load and height adjustments, and some damping adjustment. I would hope the Ohlins products for the Legacy GT would be good for that. They are known for having good high and low speed damping characteristics with their motorcycle forks and shocks. Coil-overs that are for racing usually don't need to focus on high-speed damping, as sharp bump absorption isn't all that important on smooth tracks, it tends to go with rough pavement on the street. That is the big thing with these new magento-reactive ferrous-fluid filled dampers. Electronic sensors determine compression rate, and vary the viscosity of the magnetic fluid, thick or thin, by varying electric current through the fluid. That is less complex than developing and testing two valving systems for slow movements and fast movements with static-viscosity hydraulic oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 It's actually the opposite of what you are saying. More damping is more force transmitted. damping is a scientific term (i.e. college physics 103) that refers to the amount of reactionary force that is put on an oscillating system. The more damped the system is, the more force the damper will exert, and thus in a car suspension the more force it will transmit from one side of the spring to the other (the road to you). For any specific amount of damping, the force exerted will be proportionate to the force put on it. Thus a specific amount of damping of the suspension system will transmit more force as the speed of the part increases, because the force increases with speed. This can be overcome with a valving system that relieves damping after a certain pressure threshold is reached, so at very high speed the suspension is compliant, but then damps oscillations from the spring caused by energizing it from a bump in the road, which are low-speed. I don't believe we have this, not judging by my gluteus maximus. So soft springs and lots of damping = lots of damping force applied at high speed - especially in relation to the weak spring force - therefore you feel "fast" bumps more.. If the spring were slightly stronger with the same dampers you should actually feel high-speed actions less (as the damper speed is reduced) but the nominal ride will deteriorate. If an aftermarket shock is providing lots of low-speed damping it's just designed poorly.. You don't want to keep the suspension from doing it's job - you want to effectively dissipate the energy put into the spring by the road so the car doesn't bounce. What active damping systems allow you to do is to have virtually no damping on the bound and rebound then tons of damping immediately afterward. The suspension moves with the road absorbing all the force keeping the tire on the road and the car flat - then the damper removes the energy from the spring. This is way offtopic.. but heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 2, 2007 Share Posted January 2, 2007 STG... I have been away for a week while you have e-trashed me. I have an associates degree in automotive tech. and a bachelors degree in mechanical engineering. I never claimed to have actually fixed the issues of the OP myself or to be more technically competent than the Subaru eningeers. However, I am not burdened with their need to make certain decisions with comprimise in mind. Any of the things I recommended will help the OP if he does his own legwork and doesn't just slap parts on the car. Rzar, if you are interested in more information I'll be happy to help via PM. *Edited for delicate sensibilities* The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rzar Posted January 2, 2007 Author Share Posted January 2, 2007 STG... I have been away for a week while you have e-trashed me. I have an associates degree in automotive tech. and a bachelors degree in mechanical engineering. I never claimed to have actually fixed the issues of the OP myself or to be more technically competent than the Subaru eningeers. However, I am not burdened with their need to make certain decisions with comprimise in mind. Any of the things I recommended will help the OP if he does his own legwork and doesn't just slap parts on the car. Rzar, if you are interested in more information I'll be happy to help via PM. *Edited for delicate sensibilities* PM away bro, I dont want to go crazy on the suspension. I'm just looking for a lower stance and a little better handling and stability as i only have a 2.5i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawkins20 Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Sorry to bump an old thread that drifted slightly OT, but I just recently got a 2008 LGT and noticed tonight that it was really wind buffeted more than any similar car this size I have driven before. As the OP stated, it wasn't really difficult to drive, but the car was shimmying and wanted to shift in about 30 mph gusts. Unlike some of the other posters, I am not moving to a lower performance car with the LGT and therefore have unrealistic expectations, but rather coming from a 2001 Honda Accord (similar weight) with tons of body roll. Even so, the Accord didn't have this tendancy to drift and shimmy in the wind. Anyone find out anything about this, as I was surprised by this behavior. Forgot to add: Bone stock setup, and in non-windy situations so far teh car tracks perfectly and handles great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imstillatwork Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 Sometimes this place really blows. Every other post turns in to a pissing match or a crapfest. Everyone one seems to know everything here, yet most of the posts are just. plain. wrong. I don't get it? Owell, just thought I'd add my turd to the pile. Everyone else is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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