legacy STI?...

[MtnSub]

Enlight, please Enlight me, what the hell is ^pwned?

[akm3]

He's saying you made a wonderful convincing argument that completely blew your competition out of the water, by being clear, concise, and having the appropriate facts to back up your position. You "owned" him, written pwn3d to disguise it as lamer hacker speech. -Allen

[Enlight]

^hahahah edit: |-|4 |-|4 |-|4 |-|4 |-|4 |-|4

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='gargleblaster']The only thing I called crappy about the GT is the tires. If you go back and read my post again, you'll see this: I think I'm better off buying the car that I really want based on what Subaru currently offers. Say I did it your way and bought the GT, and then Subaru brings a Legacy STi for '06. I would either a) take a huge depreciation hit on the GT to trade for the STi; or b) wait until my GT is paid off and then purchase. In my case, option a isn't going to happen, so there I would be with my GT and all kinds of remorse for not waiting another 12 months to get what I really wanted. No thanks.[/QUOTE] You're missing teh point. You basically aren't satisfied with the current offering so you bolstered sales of another vehicle. How, in fact, did you help the '06 STi make it into production again? By buying an Impreza? How do you think the car you're currently driving made it's way over here? If it weren't for WRX, nay RS owners, you'd never be in driving what you are today. Remorse? Picking between an Impreza and a Legacy has two mindsets behind it, STi version or not, the Legacy is a different car appealing to a different people. If you're happy with your STi, then stick with it. [DM speculation] On a side note, I don't think an STi version will make it here, but with the way recent Subaru trend is going, I am hopeful. If one does decide to make it's way over here, I'd definately won't count on it until '07. [/DM speculation]

[IwannaSportSedan]

I have to respectfully disagree with DM and others. for one reason. Mission. The WRX STi has a very focused mission. World Rally Championship. it is a homologation car, and enough enthusiasts want it to make it worth selling here. The Legacy STi would have a more focused mission than a Legacy GT/3.0R/Outback... but less focused than a WRX STi. The WRX STi is too small (and too un-graceful looking, it is mean, but not graceful) to be a mainstream sport sedan, the same going for the Lancer EVO series. It is a rally-spec race car for the street, with 4 instead of 2 doors. (which I have always wondered about. Why not a coupe?) The Legacy, hower is playing on a different court. It is a midsize/compact sedan (GT is a sport sedan already) that offers practicality with performance. There are entire brands built on this premise, such as BMW, Audi, and the latest re-invention of MG across the pond, to varying degrees of success. Every company has it's "tuner" badge in this market. Ford has SVT, which isn't directly marketed to the old Taurus SHO, or Lincoln LS, with Mercury sport sedans (based on Volvo/Mazda6) coming. GM has had the RWD impala SS before, now has the GXP Bonneville, and CTS (and -V) and Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac have their performance badges, respectively. Chrysler has the 300C and SRT-8 version coming, along with a proposed Dodge muscle sedan based on the Magnum image. That isn't even taking into account the Aussie Holdens and Fords that we don't get here. Acura is arguably Honda's sport sedan arm. Infinity, likewise for Nissan, and Nissan has it's own Maxima, and Altima SE-R "performance oriented" sedans. Toyota has Lexus with the IS and GS lines. Korea hasn't quite nailed down the normal sedan marketshare to specialize into performance branding yet, but don't think they wouldn't if they thought they could. Europe is well documented. Opel, Vauxhall, MG, and Jaguar in GB, Audi, VW, Mercedes, BMW in Germany, Puegeot in France, Alfa in italy, and probably a couple others like Seat thrown into the affordable performance sedan category. After that long list of performance oriented sedan list, I think Subaru needs to have a car in the specialty category. Arguably the Legacy GT might fit there already, but it just doesn't have high enough profile to really be a home run image in the performance sedan category. How many WRXs and Imprezas does the STi sell? Probably quite a few to recent grads, and young people who don't have $30k. The STi might also help bolster the WRX/Impreza used market value, along with a reputation for reliablility. Even if Subaru looses money on every STi they sell in the US, if the image of a WRX STi sells a couple of WRXs to some 20-somethings, then Subaru probably nets cash from the deal. The Legacy STi needs to do the same thing, on the much wider playing feild of the sport sedan market. If a Goliath (S4, M3) killer Legacy STi comes out with a 6mt, twin turbo H6 and kickin' AWD, in a slick appearance package (WR blue with 18"s and gold calipers like a WRX STi would be enough bling for most) would probably get all sorts of press, and all sorts of hype by people like ourselves, and the relatively few on the streets would impress people enough to get them to dealers, and sell some 2.5is, GTs and maybe even a few more OBs. The goal doesn't need to be a Legacy STi that makes money for itself, but a Legacy STi that sells Subarus, like the WRX STi does. The Legacy STi actually has the potential to break bigger than the WRX STi, if the numbers are there. C&D, R&T, Motortrend, British Auto press, etc. would absolutely have to take notice, and couldn't just brush it off like they are doing to the Legacy GT, as great as the GT even is. With between 350-400 hp and torque, which a Twin-turbo H6 would produce (B11S concept already has the prototype engine) would throw Audi and BMW into fits. Comparisons with the S4, M3, CTS-V, C-class AMG would be inevitable, and for $34-36k the Subaru would undercut them all by a significant margin. A Legacy STi is about image. Even if they only sell a comparative handfull, if the press gets ahold of a firecracker like it would, and should be, the elevation of Subaru's brand image would be HUGE, beyond what even commercials with Lance Armstrong could possibly do. As for me, I would beg, borrow, but probably not steal for one. I am not in the new car market right now, but in the next 12-24 months, when I am, I am either going to buy an STi version of the Legacy, or buy a GT, and make my own interpretation of one, if Subaru doesn't.

[MtnSub]

Hope my use of the word "PUNK" was seen as humor and it was not my intent to own or tromp on Gargleblaster. I disagreed with his motivation concept for pushing Suby into an Sti for NoAm, but thought his activist consumer letters/emails would absolutely be part of important critical mass that would influence Suby, once there mind and marketing ears were open to the subject. Regarding a 350-400HP Leg/Sti, I would not be interested for some of the same reasons I do not want a M5/V8/V10 or S4/V8. Too exposed on the insurance radar translate into $$$$$ and just too much overkill. I like the lower profile, sleeper yet performance Leg GT. Given that most agree this car is for marketing and not profit, the biggest, badest beast for $36k is probably the right call for getting attention and establishing market position, but not for me. I bet the existing LegGT will get a few more HP in MY07 and more power at lower rpm. That combined with a sport suspension will take care of me and alot of other everyday, wagon street drivers just fine.

[gargleblaster]

No offense taken here, MtnSub. I was acutally more taken aback by your referring to me as a consumer activist, only because I immediately think of Ralph Nader whenever the term "consumer activist" comes up in an automotive context. :D I couldn't agree more with what IwannaSportSedan said a few posts back. I think the main problem in comparing Subaru and the Leg STi with the other companies and their hi-po offerings is purely a function of size and/or market share. Honda, Chrysler, BMW, Toyota and most of the rest have either seemingly infinite coffers, or a comparatively huge portion of market share versus that of Subaru, or in some cases, both. In this case, they have lots of minivans and SUVs that help soak up any costs incurred by their performance models, whereas SoA is trying now to make up for losses from the Baja. Hopefully the 7-seater will be a large enough success that Subaru will be able to offer marginally-profitable STi versions of their cars - let's not forget about the Forester STi that we've seen in Japan recently... Obviously, lots of GT sales will be good for the cause, which is a point that Kevin and DM made that I never completely disagreed with. My only point is that for everyone lusting for a Leg STi, buying the GT might not be the [i]only[/i] way to get Subaru to bring the Legacy version over here. FWIW, my wife's Passat comes off lease Real Soon Now, so there will be a Legacy purchase from my household forthcoming... which also weighed heavily on my choice to get the WRX. As good as the GT is, I just couldn't see having twinkie cars in the garage. And yes, I tried the old "I'll get the Legacy now, and you can have it when the Passat goes back, and I'll get something new then..." trick. :evil: She would have nothing to do with that idea... :( So what I want to see now is for wunderkind to name his/her sources and to let us know whether the Leg STi will come as a [b]wagon[/b]

[agctr]

Q1. Does the WRX STi come in wagon form at the moment? Q2. How many WRX STi Sedan units does STi currently sell? Q3. How many variants of the WRX STi wagon have STi sold? A1. No A2. Per year in the States, Japan, Australia, UK and NZ THOUSANDS. A3. 1 or 2 come to mind. SO based on this little questionaire, if STi have sold thousands of STi WRX sedan units and not many wagons, what does that tell you? Well it tells me that I dont think Fuji will be rushing to throw another hot wagon at STi to tart up anytime soon. Adam.

[EyeFlyIsTheEye]

We need a Legacy STi forum- stat! Let's keep all the speculation in one place.

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='EyeFlyIsTheEye']We need a Legacy STi forum- stat! Let's keep all the speculation in one place.[/QUOTE] No.

[EyeFlyIsTheEye]

And your reason being??? I give my post +1 so it still stands. [quote name='Drift Monkey']No.[/QUOTE]

[agctr]

Tis all good, wait till it happens and then maybe. Adam.

[ricochet]

A few points relevant to issues brought up in this thread: 1) For the past several years Subaru's >$30k models have been its highest volume sellers. So to stretch from low- to high- $30k on even limited-edition models doesn't seem such a stretch to me. 2) I have driven a Stage 3 modified 05 Legacy GT Sedan. The builder estimates that it was outputting 385 horses without getting too fancy on the mods. 385 may be a bit optimistic, but the thing was hella fast. The most siginificant problem at that point was the stock suspensions being unfit to handle the power (easy fix) and the redline fuel-cutoff jumping up to quickly (not so easy to fix). Point being, if you want a LGT simply to beat an M3 on speed merits, you can do it today for under $35k--though, granted the interior isn't quite the same. 3) I think it will be pretty uncommon for any serious M3 buyer to consider an LGT--let alone an M5. At that level of performance there are several very specific features a buyer looks for. The fact that one is RWD and the other is AWD makes them entirely different beasts that makes such a discussion only relevant to online forums. Now, comparing to the Mazdaspeed6 or even the Audi S4 would be much more natural of a comparison. Though with the 4.2L V8 in the S4, Subaru would have to do something larger than a 2.5L 4-banger to get the job done right. However, given its history, I would not expect to see a turbo-charged 6-cyl, 6MT-equipped LGT hit the US for a long, long, time (if ever). Of course, I'd love to be proven wrong. :) Cheers, Ryan Douthit Subiesport Magazine [url]http://www.subiesport.com[/url]

[axis008]

Stage 3?? I didn't know anyone was building such a powerful Legacy already. Who are these people?

[ricochet]

I'm not sure if they want to announce the maker yet--since it's the first such install in the US, and still in the tweaking phases. But the car belongs to the owner of Rallitek Performance ([url]http://www.rallitek.com[/url]) in Portland, Ore. We're waiting for the suspension to get worked out then it's going to get featured in Subiesport Magazine--probably the March/April 05 issue. Rallitek has been running the test setup on its LGT for about two months now. I know some other power-making firms have recently taken delivery of LGT models of their own. There are a LOT of cool parts coming to market in the next 6-12 months for LGT owners. R

[MtnSub]

Ricochet, very interesting and well thought out post. I am quite tired of all the speculation about a Sti Leg/GT, but this is interesting new info about a real project car. IMO, the perspective you structured for this info is spot on. I really think Suby is betting big $$$ on big 7 passenger Tribeca and that is there focus. Tribeca will meet its sales expectation or a team of people will fall on their swords. That being said, Leg Sti work is best being done outside Suby for now and re-evaluated for 06 or 07. Regarding interior, that would be the easiest and least expensive problem to solve, if Suby wanted to bling-out a Sti Leg. Real issues are engineering, testing and package cohesiveness. I think you are right about $35k-$36K not being a big stretch for an uber Leg/bling/Sti and Suby could have a fat margin to help with low volume at that price point. I still think super Leg/Sti would be marketing mule for image change and a low volume car, but that is a std practice for auto companies. A Leg sedan & wagon Sti seems a much better bet than an two seat roadster for image change. Thanks for very interesting post.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Yes, indeed, ricochet, thank you for the updates. This is interesting stuff. I look forward to reading more about this. Good to hear that the Legacy GT will not be ignored by the powerbrokers. I am not sure that Subie should be looking to pull customers from Audi S4 and BMW M3, but rather this key point: They should be going for people who want, but can't quite afford those cars, and make them a very, very attractive alternative. 9/10ths the car, at 3/5ths the price, which sounds very nice to me.

[fan42025]

[quote name='IwannaSportSedan'] I am not sure that Subie should be looking to pull customers from Audi S4 and BMW M3, but rather this key point: They should be going for people who want, but can't quite afford those cars, and make them a very, very attractive alternative. 9/10ths the car, at 3/5ths the price, which sounds very nice to me.[/QUOTE] Which is exactly why I bought the GT and not an M3. However, other car makers aren't standing still. New models coming out soon will make the GT less and less attractive. Hence the pressure for Sub to make better GTs reasonably soon. Competition is good.

[wunderkind]

Yup. Infiniti has stepped up the game with their almost 300hp G35 sedans! Only 33hp shy of the uber-3series. It's not the same anymore these days, where true sports cars are very distinctive over their regular sedan counterparts. These days even a Camry sports similar hp as that of 911s about a decade ago!

[agctr]

I realistically DONT think that Subaru will be pulling clients from their beloved S4's & M3's anytime soon. The STi will have a lot of the features that these cars have, such as power and performance but the creature comforts wont be there including the long history both the S4 and M3 have. But in saying this, it wouldnt take long for the STi to be held in the same cult field as shared by its cousin the STi WRX. Adam.

[MDork]

i NEED a legacy sti wagon. if subaru announces they are building it (and bringing it stateside) i will be in line. first post. will be first subaru.

[ih8vtec13]

I hope i hit the lottery before it comes out i would have to buy some more subarus to go with my gt and a few porsches too. maybe a mclarin.

[agctr]

Hey MDork and Welcome to the site. Yes I would say a few ppl would be lining up for a STi GT Wagon, SUBE555 included, not sure if it will materialise though. Adam.