ACURA TSX vs. LEGACY GT in Road and Track (pix on pg.2)

[scubie02]

[quote name='SchnellerGT'] I also think the following: Acura reliability > Subaru's Acura = Luxury mark = better resale [/quote] Actually, this is simply not true, as far as I can tell, and is simply a common misconception. I base this on the rsx vs wrx debates I used to see ad nauseum. One of the things the RSX proponents would always say was that you got better reliability/quality and resale with the acura. But if you do the research, this doesn't seem to be the case. Try going to the National Highway Traffic and Safety Admin's Office of Defects Investigation webpage and looking up Technical Service Bulletins (TSB's)--basically known things that go wrong with a vehicle. I looked up the 2002 rsx's and wrx's to compate (the first year for both, and the model year of my own wrx). For the subaru you get--4. For the Acura you get--[b]79[/b]! Thats a pretty huuuuuge difference. In addition, while 4 is lower than most vehicles I compared to, 79 is MUCH higher. Your average PONTIAC doesn't hve that many tsb's. Then I decided to check resale bu going to autotrader.com and see what they seem to be going for (they were similarly priced when new). As far as I could tell, in general the wrx was holding its value BETTER than the rsx. It was researching this stuff out of curiosity which largely got me in to trade my wrx for a new LGT--didn't realize it was holding its value so well! Lastly, the price difference. I find that the LGT vs TSX is a pretty identical situation the rsx vs wrx scenario last time I bought. On paper, the wrx or lgt is slightly more than the comparable acura. In PRACTICE, however, my experience was that the acura dealers basically wouldn't budge on the price and wanted sticker (one said "maybe we could get you $100-$200 off that..."). Whereas I got my LGT at INVOICE, and my wrx BELOW invoice when I got it. So in reality, the subaru ended up being cheaper in both instances. I'm not saying that the tsx is bad or the lgt is better etc--I like both cars. But it is simply an ERRONEOUS stereotype/misconception that you are going to get better reliability or resale with an acura. I still certainly wouldn't fault someone for going w/ the acura's--they are nice cars and its simply a matter of personal preference or priorities. But anyone should go in with the correct facts.

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='SchnellerGT'] Acura reliability > Subaru's Acura = Luxury mark = better resale [/quote] Maybe if by Acura you mean honda from the last decade. They are pushing their technology too far these days. I have a good number of friends with the last gen TL. What a nightmare that transmission is, one is already on his THIRD.

[aldog1330]

[quote name='SchnellerGT'] Acura reliability > Subaru's Acura = Luxury mark = better resale [/quote] Thats definitely not the case regard all Accords and TL's (and a couple other models) from 1999ish up to 2004 with AT's....the trannies are basically disposable after 15k miles. I originally wanted to buy a TL, until I saw this.

[racerdave]

I'm with Gurpman... don't give us a "dumbed down" JDM GT. Give us the full JDM GT suspension with the GT package... leave the softer suspension for the base car.

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='Driver72']On another note, I was trying to have an adult discussion with some of the guys over at the TSX board. Many, not all, just continued to bash the LGT as "crap" and "anybody can turbocharge junk and make it go fast." Yada yada. I found that none of those people have actually DRIVEN the Subaru. There was one sensible TSX owner who bashed his brothers for bashing the LGT and even he stated those bashing the LGT haven't driven it. They were also trying to convince me (well themselves really) that the only advantage that the LGT has over the TSX is straight line speed. And they even tried to convince themselves that just as many DRIVING enthusiasts would prefer the TSX over the LGT regardless of the power. LOL, next they'll be trying to say that more DRIVING enthusiast will prefer the TSX over an STI or EVO too. I kept saying, the TSX is a nice car, but more for people who want a good car with top rate interior, lots of amenities, good driving dynamics but with only adequate performance. But the LGT is more for people who are interested in performance first and a bit of luxury second, all wrapped up in one package. They just couldn't accept that and thought the TSX was every bit as much of a performance car. Whatever, I gave up, I figured they learn soon enough on the streets. But they all probably cower away from any "challenge" with an LGT anyway. I just wish one of these magazines would of taken these cars to the track. Maybe in another comparo[/quote] Basically what I've been saying the whole time, one line at a time... :P Straight line performance? If I really wanted that, I wouldn't have bought a LGT. I'll say that a true "DRIVING enthusiast" would clearly pick the LGT hands down, FWD simply can't compete. They really need to track our USDM equivilents (maybe better/equal tires to make it fair) but doesn't anyone remember the Legacy GT Spec.B vs. Accord Euro R video? Anyone want to post it over on the TSX board? :lol:

[Belzebutt]

[quote name='Driver72']On another note, I was trying to have an adult discussion with some of the guys over at the TSX board. Many, not all, just continued to bash the LGT as "crap" and "anybody can turbocharge junk and make it go fast." Yada yada. I found that none of those people have actually DRIVEN the Subaru. There was one sensible TSX owner who bashed his brothers for bashing the LGT and even he stated those bashing the LGT haven't driven it. [/quote] The Legacy is a new car. Since most TSX owners bought a TSX before the new GT came out, it's understandable that not many of them got a chance to test drive it and they relied on the reviews from C&D and R&T. These reviews probably have more value than 10 people on message boards taking test drives, because the reviewers are more experienced drivers and really put the cars through their paces. And what do these say? They generally gave the handling nod to the TSX. That is ALL anyone on that board said, nobody there claimed the TSX would outrace a GT. [quote] They were also trying to convince me (well themselves really) that the only advantage that the LGT has over the TSX is straight line speed. And they even tried to convince themselves that just as many DRIVING enthusiasts would prefer the TSX over the LGT regardless of the power. LOL, next they'll be trying to say that more DRIVING enthusiast will prefer the TSX over an STI or EVO too. [/quote] What really seemed to have prompted you to leave was one poster saying (mixing in some strong words such as "deal with it", admittedly) that "performance" is not just about acceleration and AWD. He actually had a good point: [quote] You continue to tout the LGT as a different car targeting at the "enthusiast" and you keep using the term performance too loosely. The TSX is just as much an "enthusiast" car and I think is targeted at the exact same person (which explains the interest in the debate). Its performance is exceptional, about even in handling and braking with with LGT (close enough!). The TSX also has some further advantages such as a much better transmission, which would appeal to the "enthusiast"., as well as a better chassis (according to C&D) Here are the scores from C&D on the chassis comparison performance- TSX 10, LGT 8 steering feel- TSX 9, LGT 8 brake feel- TSX 9, LGT 8 handling- TSX 9, LGT 8 ride- TSX 10, LGT 8 TOTAL- TSX 47, LGT 40 Yes, the TSX is not a fast car, but that doesnt make it less of an enthusianst choice. Its performance is still great, just not in acceleration. Just because one mag (or some people on this site) values accleration over everyting else, doesnt etch any conclusions in stone.[/quote] All of these comparison areas deal with performance. Even the R&T comparo gave the nod to the TSX in some performance areas. Why is it such a stretch to think that someone who puts more weight on these particular areas would prefer the TSX? [quote] They just couldn't accept that and thought the TSX was every bit as much of a performance car. [/quote] Again, you seem to think that the only way "performance" is settled is in a street race (of which most are drag races in a straight line). Can you really blame these TSX guys for assuming that you mostly value straight-line acceleration? It's too bad you got offended on that board, but I didn't see any more jabs at the GT over there than people are taking at the TSX here (old people would prefer the TSX, etc.). Big deal, you get a bunch of guys in a room talking about anything, sports, politics, car, you'll always get a few jabs. :) Plus people will always defend their purchase, no matter if it's a Legacy GT, a TSX or an Aztek.

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='Belzebutt']Again, you seem to think that the only way "performance" is settled is in a street race (of which most are drag races in a straight line). Can you really blame these TSX guys for assuming that you mostly value straight-line acceleration?[/quote] That's simply not true. I for one did not buy the LGT specificaly for "straight line performance." There are plenty of cars that do a better job for that for much less...

[GT Ski]

[quote name='Drift Monkey'][quote name='Belzebutt']Again, you seem to think that the only way "performance" is settled is in a street race (of which most are drag races in a straight line). Can you really blame these TSX guys for assuming that you mostly value straight-line acceleration?[/quote] That's simply not true. I for one did not buy the LGT specificaly for "straight line performance." There are plenty of cars that do a better job for that for much less...[/quote] +1 Anyone who thinks a GT just a straight line car does not know what they are talking about... unless they are talking about a Mustang GT.

[Belzebutt]

[quote name='Drift Monkey'][quote name='Belzebutt']Again, you seem to think that the only way "performance" is settled is in a street race (of which most are drag races in a straight line). Can you really blame these TSX guys for assuming that you mostly value straight-line acceleration?[/quote] That's simply not true. I for one did not buy the LGT specificaly for "straight line performance." There are plenty of cars that do a better job for that for much less...[/quote] I know it's not true, I'm just pointing out that when people saw Driver72's street race suggestion, it naturally makes you wonder if he thinks performance is about acceleration. We all agree it's more than that.

[Deer Killer]

[quote name='Belzebutt'] Again, you seem to think that the only way "performance" is settled is in a street race (of which most are drag races in a straight line). Can you really blame these TSX guys for assuming that you mostly value straight-line acceleration? [/quote] edit - Yes, they are comparing to pathetic FWD. It sucks everywhere. AWD isn't the best for straight line performance, perhaps compared to FWD crap, or if you have > 500 hp and really need that 3 second 0-60. They are paper racing the cars, and it's obvious the GT is in a different league with the engine it has. We can still get on the gas earlier in a corner, that's handling. Spinning your inner tire is not.

[GT Ski]

[quote name='Belzebutt'][quote name='Drift Monkey'][quote name='Belzebutt']Again, you seem to think that the only way "performance" is settled is in a street race (of which most are drag races in a straight line). Can you really blame these TSX guys for assuming that you mostly value straight-line acceleration?[/quote] That's simply not true. I for one did not buy the LGT specificaly for "straight line performance." There are plenty of cars that do a better job for that for much less...[/quote] I know it's not true, I'm just pointing out that when people saw Driver72's street race suggestion, it naturally makes you wonder if he thinks performance is about acceleration. We all agree it's more than that.[/quote] You have the TSX on Summer performance tires compared to the GT on All-Seasons. Many of the performance categories were only decided by one or two very subjective points, yet the GT is trashed as "Junk" by the badge snobs. Acceleration, 0-60, 1/4 Mile, skid pad, and braking are all hard, indisputable figures. The TSX edged the GT on the skid pad and braking test (I think, don’t have the write up) by a small amount. Put a set of Summer tires on the GT and I think the braking and skid tests may very well come out in the GT’s favor. If folks are going to claim my car is a POS because of one or two subjective points in a C&D comparo then expect to have the indisputable advantages shoved right back at you. The G35, Volvo, Audi/VW and (it seems now) the TSX owners seem very fond of completely dumping on the GT without even bothering to take a look at it. There are no bonus points for badge snobbery.

[godwhomismike]

I would've bought a '04 Mach 1 Mustang before I'd get a G35 . I have a soft spot for VW/Audi, but Volvo doesn't nothing for me, I guess it's because I'm only 23 :roll: . Acura was never on my shopping list because I felt it was a trendy car that everyone and their grandma owns (I did research the TL very briefly a few months back to see what it offers). I was looking for something rare, unique or quirky that offered good or decent performance. Explains why my number one choice was a 250 hp Blue (or silver) Audi TT with blue leather interior - different - very different. Or a Azure Blue 2004 Mach 1 Mustang - only about a thousand built in that color for '04 - plus offered a cool shaker hood and a unique exhaust sound. Those were two of my favorites on the road. Insurance, practicality, or costs are what kept me from getting them. - Mike

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

I would get a TL with out a doubt if it wasn't FWD for christs sake. I will never ever own a FWD car it is just such a stupid format. RWD is fun and makes since, AWD is practical and also fun but FWD I just hate. Also the TSX is just a nothing car to me its a European Accord rebadged to get Americans to shell out some extra money to say yah I drive that "Acura" over there. The TL is a great car but 270hp through FWD is just a stupid concept and Acura hsould have spent the extra money to route the power through the rear wheels I would gladly pay an extra 1,000 dollars to the base price if it would mean the car was RWD.

[wunderkind]

Word.

[Belzebutt]

[quote name='GT Ski'] You have the TSX on Summer performance tires compared to the GT on All-Seasons. Many of the performance categories were only decided by one or two very subjective points, yet the GT is trashed as "Junk" by the badge snobs. Acceleration, 0-60, 1/4 Mile, skid pad, and braking are all hard, indisputable figures. The TSX edged the GT on the skid pad and braking test (I think, don’t have the write up) by a small amount. Put a set of Summer tires on the GT and I think the braking and skid tests may very well come out in the GT’s favor. [/quote] You must have misread the review. The TSX was tested on the OEM all-season tires that appear worse than those of the GT (they're on the spec sheet). Both reviewers complained about the TSX tires, saying they howl. [quote] If folks are going to claim my car is a POS because of one or two subjective points in a C&D comparo then expect to have the indisputable advantages shoved right back at you. [/quote] If you bought a car purely for subjective reasons you'd be buying a Camry or a Prius. And nobody said your car is a POS, both are great cars, clearly both appeal to enthousiasts.

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='Deer Killer']They are paper racing the cars, and it's obvious the GT is in a different league with the engine it has. We can still get on the gas earlier in a corner, that's handling. Spinning your inner tire is not.[/quote] :lol: So true.

[scubie02]

ggez guys lets not get out of hand. The TSX was tested on (comes with as oem) all seasons too--probably as bad as the re-92's. It was the volvo and audi in the C&D test that had summer's. Skidpad numbers are VERY similar on the two cars if I recall--one test had higher for the tsx, one for the lgt, so they must be pretty close. Down the line it may well depend on which tire each owner picked as a replacement if they are that close on similar tires. I don't see what the big fuss is about myself.

[Driver72]

Belzebutt wrote: "Again, you seem to think that the only way "performance" is settled is in a street race (of which most are drag races in a straight line). Can you really blame these TSX guys for assuming that you mostly value straight-line acceleration? It's too bad you got offended on that board, but I didn't see any more jabs at the GT over there than people are taking at the TSX here (old people would prefer the TSX, etc.). Big deal, you get a bunch of guys in a room talking about anything, sports, politics, car, you'll always get a few jabs. Smile Plus people will always defend their purchase, no matter if it's a Legacy GT, a TSX or an Aztek." Belze, I can appreciate what you are saying. But the fact of the matter is, I stated SEVERAL times over there that the LGT isn't just superior in STRAIGHT LINE. But some of the guys just couldn't get that through their skulls. And they haven't even driven the LGT. What I said and will continue to say since I've driven both cars is...the TSX is a nice driving car, it has great feel, a superior shifter, and good steering feel, but the LGT does all of these things well too, maybe not with quite as crisp as a FEEL. BUT, "feeling" is one thing, actual results is quite another. And the ABSOLUTE FACT of the matter is there is NO time, on ANY street that the TSX will outrun the Legacy GT. Again, I'm not just talking about a straight line. There it's obvious the LGT will destroy the TSX. But because of the TSX's lack of power, it will NOT keep up with a LGT in ANY situation, be that a straightline, a curvy mountain road, a drag strip, a race track, a dirt track, a snow covered road/track. The TSX just would NOT keep up. So, from ANY driving enthusiast point of view the LGT would be a better car. Can you get driving excitement and reward from the TSX? Of course, it drives great. But so does a handful of other cars that are even slower than the TSX. Heck I can have a good time in a Buick...beating the snot out of it. But in a actual DRIVING situation, which would I choose? The car that not only drives great but BACKS UP that driving experience with some cajones under the hood! I can appreciate them defending their purchase, but what I can't appreciate is those with NO experience with the LGT calling it crap and saying that it's only superior in straightline performance. That's just inexperienced baseless talk. Like you also stated, the LGT wasn't out when the TSX came out so I know a lot of those guys haven't had a reason to drive the LGT. But I'm also quite sure the defensive posture they are taking is because if they actually DID drive the LGT, they would know that it's the far superior performing car and they might even want one! It's all good Belze, I'll still visit the TSX site simply because, as I've said, my fiance likes the TSX and we may own one of those too in the near future. I'm just not going to discuss the LGT with those guys, until they've actually driven the car and can give honest responses. True their are some guys here that have bashed the TSX, and I also don't think that's fair, but you don't need to drive the TSX to know it's far slower than the LGT, and also to know that most of the people buying TSX's aren't what you'd typically call auto enthusiasts. Later

[racerdave]

FWIW, I'd be considering the TSX and TL strongly but for two factors -- FWD and no wagon. But I think for real-world driving conditions -- off-camber corners, damp road, rain, snow (at least up here), etc -- the LGT will be faster everywhere... corner exits, straights, etc. Add the JDM GT and/or Spec B suspension, and it'll be even more so...

[Xaqtly]

I wonder if any of those so-called "performance enthusiasts" on the TSX site have any idea what an additional 100 lb-ft of torque would do to their exit speeds? "The LGT is only better in a straight line" my BUTT. Oh wait, the TSX is FWD, never mind. Another 100 lb-ft of torque would just make the front wheel (singular) spin like crazy and the car would understeer into a ditch. Seriously, do any of those bozos have any racing experience at all? If they drive TSXes they most certainly don't know anything about what it's like to put down power out of a corner.

[GT Ski]

[quote="BelzebuttYou must have misread the review. The TSX was tested on the OEM all-season tires that appear worse than those of the GT (they're on the spec sheet). Both reviewers complained about the TSX tires, saying they howl. [/quote] My mistake then, someone told me otherwise, I don't subscribe to C&D [quote] If you bought a car purely for subjective reasons you'd be buying a Camry or a Prius. And nobody said your car is a POS, both are great cars, clearly both appeal to enthousiasts.[/quote] If you've been around this board for any length of time you'll see how often then GT/XT are looked down upon due to the badge on the hood. Most of time it is amusing, but it is getting old.

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='GT Ski'][quote name='Belzebutt'] You must have misread the review. The TSX was tested on the OEM all-season tires that appear worse than those of the GT (they're on the spec sheet). Both reviewers complained about the TSX tires, saying they howl. [/quote] My mistake then, someone told me otherwise, I don't subscribe to C&D [quote] If you bought a car purely for subjective reasons you'd be buying a Camry or a Prius. And nobody said your car is a POS, both are great cars, clearly both appeal to enthousiasts.[/quote] If you've been around this board for any length of time you'll see how often then GT/XT are looked down upon due to the badge on the hood. Most of time it is amusing, but it is getting old.[/quote] Fixed. Do I need to do a "how to quote" walkthrough? It seems users here can't figure out that function.... :P :lol:

[Driver72]

D.M. somtimes it's easier to just copy and paste part of the quote instead of hitting th quote buttom and getting paragraphs, and then having to delete all the wordage you don't want. But I will be honest, I don't know how to quote within a quote like that. :D

[SchnellerGT]

So, I just got back from the local Acura dealer where I test drove a 2004 TSX with NAV and AT. Yes, it's a solid car with tons of great standard features... BUT, it's not as edgy as I thought it would be. The steering is on the light side, and the ride is fairly soft. Above all, the engine felt like it had very little "go" power. So, I am scratching it off my list. My decision goes back to: do I want to have a lot of money left in the bank, spend less on insurance, buy a car that would make me happy, and get the Mazda 3S. Or do I embrace my lust for power and buy the Subaru Legacy 2.5GT? Time will tell.

[Driver72]

Isn't it funny how you could get the Mazda 3s with a manual and it's every bit (well very close too) as fast as the TSX, but handles better. It's every bit of a "drivers" car as the TSX too, but you'd never get the TSX owners to admit that, since they seem to think the TSX is more of a drivers car than than even the LGT Oh well. You'll surely have more fun in the LGT than the Mazda 3s it just depends on whether that's worth it too you.