Wonder why Subaru doesn't put HIDs in their cars? Look here. (except the Sti)

[LegGTLT]

Very happy with my stock lamps with silverstars:)

 

So, compared to stock lights, how do the silverstars improve upon them? I love the stock lights personally but I'm always willing to improve something I use so often. I came from an '02 GT and the pattern and light of the 05's is a great improvement, IMHO.

 

As TSI said, the clarity I've seen with HID's (friends aftermarket HID's in Subbies, Accords, etc... not the "real" S4 or Lexus style) is amazing. Every crack and crevice is visable and EXTREMELY bright in the general vicinity in front of the car. I never thought though how that would make everything further away diminish in clarity/visibility. It does make sense though. Good point Think of when you are around a bright flashlight pointed right in front of you. Great light, everything is visable right there. Yet, beyond that area, VERY dark. With a dimmer flashlight the visibility in front may not be as crisp but the outlying areas are not as contrasted and thus slighty more visiable. Maybe I'm off here, but just trying to put it in perspective is all.

[gt_ltd]

I still want to know why subaru put HIDs on their JDM models.

[2Simpletons]

This thread cracks me up. So many F'd up blanket statements it's rediclous. I'm sorry you're experience with HID lighting (if there is any) has sucked. I'm sorry your eyes lie to you.

 

My experience and millions of others has been great. I'd like all of the German auto engineers to read this nonsense and hear their points of view on why the Autobahn has been a catalyst for better lighting. "Hmmmm...100MPH+? I think we need to see a little further down the road." And you do see further and crisper and clearer. Oh wait, I'm being lied to again!

 

Dangit, that must NOT be a car on the side of the road with it's lights off up there! I wish I had my halogens to tell me the truth! What am I going to do?!?!? I don't want to be lied to anymore! Ahhhhhhh!!!! :lol:

 

Gimme a friggin' break. Lots of nonsense in here.

[slamck]

This thread cracks me up. So many F'd up blanket statements it's rediclous. I'm sorry you're experience with HID lighting (if there is any) has sucked. I'm sorry your eyes lie to you.

 

My experience and millions of others has been great. I'd like all of the German auto engineers to read this nonsense and hear their points of view on why the Autobahn has been a catalyst for better lighting. "Hmmmm...100MPH+? I think we need to see a little further down the road." And you do see further and crisper and clearer. Oh wait, I'm being lied to again!

 

Dangit, that must NOT be a car on the side of the road with it's lights off up there! I wish I had my halogens to tell me the truth! What am I going to do?!?!? I don't want to be lied to anymore! Ahhhhhhh!!!! :lol:

 

Gimme a friggin' break. Lots of nonsense in here.

+1000. Well said.

 

I have not heard anyone who has HID in your car doesn't like it. Everyone who said halogen is better than HID are those who don't have HID in their cars. Go figure. :lol:

[gt_ltd]

I have not heard anyone who has HID in your car doesn't like it. Everyone who said halogen is better than HID are those who don't have HID in their cars. Go figure. :lol:

 

[Hanger]

IMHO the stock lighting is fine and HIDs are just bling.

 

on that... stock lighting was so bright, i was shocked when i first got it from dealer on the way home but then changed to HID cuz it's bling blang!

[VirtualReality]

I still want to know why subaru put HIDs on their JDM models.

 

+1

[xr7kid]

sebberry's right about blue light, and that's why alot of good sunglasses block blue light, it's generally considered to cause distortion and a haze effect at distance.

[MSB]

I still want to know why subaru put HIDs on their JDM models.

 

Maybe it's more consistent with trying to move the legacy and subaru up into the luxury end of the market.

 

SOA probably had to make a decision on cost to get the USDM out at a specific price point, esp as the USDM cars probably work out cheaper than the JDM, Euro and AsiaPac models.

[TSiWRX]

Partly, having HIDs is an "image"/marketing need. There's no doubt that just about every upscale or "high-tech" model or model line incorporates HIDs, and not having this accessory will cost the maker buyers.

 

However, again, I emphasize that scientifically, HIDs are *_NOT_* the end-all and be-all - not by today's technology.

 

Our senses lie. From that feeling of Deja Vu to optical illusions, these episodes are very real, and are present every day. "Seeing better" with HIDs using current technology truly is one of these cases of false perception, which is founded primarily on extremes of foreground flooding, which creates an immediate sense of security (due to the ability to literally "see everything" that's within the beam's throw and range, which in and of itself is typically "perfect," with minimal artifacts). This sensation, however, is purely subjective - for while you will be able to see much better up-close, distance-vision suffers as the excess foreground light will cause your pupils to contract, thus physiologically worsening visual performance - which is particularly distressing when distance night-vision, an already tenuous thing, is considered.

 

Ironically, the very much imperfect and artifact-filled throw of standard halogens usually cause many darker spots to be present closer to the light source - thus, pretty much by luck, enable the driver to see better farther down-range. Of course, the holes left close-in saps driver confidence in his immediate environment, which is typically the cause for feeling that standard incandescent sources are so much more inferior, when this is not truly the case.

 

Is excess foreground lighting always a bad thing, then?

 

No, it's not.

 

Such lighting can be very benificial for a specific subset of drivers for whom distance night-vision is either not a concern or a truly lost-cause. The latter, rather unflatteringly, includes of course the elderly and many with varying forms of visual defects. The former, though, brings up circumstances such as those in which the road surface and its immediate surroundings, such as curbs, are badly delineated or degraded - as well as cases such as city-driving, where the typically very bright road-side lights cause traditional incandescents to "wash out."

 

However, the interplay between advantage-disadvantage is not finished.

 

In inclimate weather, as I've mentioned before, this intense foreground lighting - formatted in typical "low-beam" throw/beam pattern - itself causes a significant amount of back-scatter and glare, both to the driver as well as to oncoming traffic. Additionally, should the color-temperature of the HID system be too high - thus blue-shifted - this can also cause an increase in perceived glare. Additionally, any shortcomings in the HID system, such as artifacts at the beam edges or imperfect beam design (as seen with "improper" retrofits) become heightened, again manifest in glare to both parties.

 

This is why, in many cases, high-end makers will supplement HIDs with traditional incandescents for true fog-lights, or, alternatively, use low color-temperature selective yellow/amber HIDs for fogs.

 

Where high-beams/distance vision is concerned, there is either a need for the HIDs projected throw to literally "skip" the foreground (accomplished through very, very intensely R&D'ed projector optics, this is where, again, OEMs shine), or, alternatively, as many lighting enthusiasts favor, they couple low-beam HIDs with high-beams of traditional incandescent design, only with the use of HIR technology.

 

Here, similarly, it's not low-beams that will do anything, as it is very easy to out-drive the low beam pattern at typical highway speeds - but rather, high-beam "reach" and/or the use of supplemental, properly aimed and focused/patterned auxiliary (i.e. "driving") lights that will actually be of benefit.

 

Finally, color-index/temperature has been discussed ad-nauseum here and elsewhere - again, the OEMs, sticking to color-temperatures between 4100K and 4600K (aftermarket, typically 5000K), in trying to approximate the light-output of "sunlight," has been marketed to a great extent as a "safety" factor. Unfortunately, this is somewhat misleading.

 

Although such stark white lighting will reveal "every detail," it physiologically saturates our eyes, leading to poor color rendition as well as poor depth and edge perception. Scientists are just now coming to realize - and to pursue the fact - that *_AT NIGHT_* what humans are most attuned to is light more in the yellower part of the spectrum, in what the flashlight industry is now pursuing as the "amber/hay" coloration - this is akin to natural FIRELIGHT, which we, as humans, have long evolved to optimize as our night-time visual cue. Top-flight "tactical flashlight" makers are just now coming to realize that the "stark white" to "blue-white" craze that was so sought-after in the earlier half of this decade was nowhere near optimal for our visual needs in the darkness of night-time mortal-combat, and they are now looking at ways to enhance the "yellowness" of various LED light sources - typically by incorporating a yellow or amber emitter along with a majority of "white" emitters - in order to give soldiers and law-enforcement officers the best visual performance once the sun drops below the horizon.

 

Note, though, this is not necessarily to say that, outright, the "yellower" halogens are somehow better. The truth of the matter is that traditional incandescents do not put out as much light as today's OEM HIDs - thus, the answer lies in somehow manipulating the output of today's HIDs to *_better_* suit our human physiological systems.

 

Again, I'm not anti-HIDs. Nor am I pro-incandescents. I simply see where faults and shortcoming are on both systems as they stand today, in an objective, factual, and scientific sense.

 

I have performed both "proper" full-optics retrofits as well as "improper" plug-and-play installs on both my various vehicles and others' in the past. This is not something that's either new to me nor something that I'm unable to do or afford, and is thus "jealous of." I'm merely dissecting this option from a detached, factual standpoint.

 

-----

 

With all that said, it still baffles me as to why (1) Subaru would make such a big-deal out of this supposed safety-factor when they incorporate HIDs into their JDM lineup (in so far as I know, Asians do not have unique biological visual "wiring) - perhaps they believe that the domestic-market roadway lighting environment better suits the strong points of the HIDs?.....and (2) why SoA would itself market the STi/STI with HIDs, for if not for safety, wouldn't this purely then be based on marketing/public-perception?

 

This is why I can only agree with some of what SoA is replying with....and why I have trouble not seeing it as biased with marketing BS.

[JohnG]

I still want to know why subaru put HIDs on their JDM models.

 

Is everyone here a complete moron??? They don't HAVE fog in Japan!!!

 

(or maybe we just can't see it???)

[LittleBlueGT]

TSi + WRX well said. I have done a fair bit of research on HIDs and come to the exact same conclusion as you. That is why I am keeping my incandescants.

 

I would like to know why Subaru put them on the JDM model though. And I wonder how much research they put into the JDM HIDs. If I were to go with HIDs they would be JDM ones, not aftermarket ones no matter how good the cut-off looks.

[gt_ltd]

They don't HAVE fog in Japan!!!

 

(or maybe we just can't see it???)

Did you ever live in Japan? Paul told me that Tokyo does get foggy occasionally.

 

Now who is a moron?

[gt_ltd]

SOA probably had to make a decision on cost to get the USDM out at a specific price point, esp as the USDM cars probably work out cheaper than the JDM, Euro and AsiaPac models.

 

well they can always make HID as an option like BMW and Audi do on some of their vehicles.

[Pugsly]

Is everyone here a complete moron??? They don't HAVE fog in Japan!!!

 

(or maybe we just can't see it???)

Uhh...

 

Take a look at this picture.

 

http://www.tcp.com/~mink/Images/Japan/akashi_kaikyo_ohashi_fog.jpg

 

Not my picture so I'm not going to imbed it. I just did a google image search for 'Japan Fog'.

[TSiWRX]

I would like to know why Subaru put them on the JDM model though. And I wonder how much research they put into the JDM HIDs.

 

Exactly, bro - and that's what continues to puzzle me with the corporate-BS-doublespeak reply that we've seen. He strangely presented some good technical info., but mucked up everything else.

 

----

 

In any case, I typed that reply late last night, and forgot one thing -

 

"Why does no-one ever complain about their HIDs, or ever 'switch back?'"

 

Partially, it's ownership bias - if you've paid some $300 to $2000 for something that's SUPPOSED to be better, would you ever say that it wasn't? This can easily be seen in the "blue bulbs" debacle that took place in the earlier half of this decade, when everyone was seeking to replicate HID performance using incandescent lighting. It wasn't until a knowledge-base revolution took-place that this myth was finally repelled.

 

But more-so, typical drivers do not complain about HID visibility (from behind the driver's seat) as well as will not likely voluntarily go back to incandescents because subjectively, the HIDs' foreground flooding contributes so much to driver confidence that it eclipses what true-knowledge and science would tell us about its actual visual effects. In essence, our eyes lie to us, and we are so convinced by it that we won't believe otherwise.

 

When you can see every miniscule crack and fissure in the road immediately in front of you, it's hard to reason that you're actually not "seeing better" overall.

[Garandman]

I dislike HID's as I find the glare distracting. So I'm in no rush to get them and inflict myself on others.

 

I agree with others that the stock lighting is excellent, much, much better than my 97 OBW.

[LittleBlueGT]

I was heavily leaning toward HIDs a few months ago, but some real hard looking while driving at night has led me to the conclusion that I can see extremely well on high-beams with the OEM lights. Not foreground flooding, but actual distance, like deer.

 

I have also learned not to use my fogs with low-beams unless needed, it actually takes away from distance vision.

[TSiWRX]

^ Same here.

 

What I need for my neck of the woods is some far-reaching, proper "driving lamps."

 

I'm very split as to how to approach this, though, as I do not want a too-obvious set of auxiliary lamps off my front-end.....

[tantal]

Yea, that's right, people who are familiar with the technology are FOS just because you you choose to believe what you want. Enlighten us further, o great know-it-all.

 

It can't possibly be true that you are a victim of good advertising and what's popular, can it? Nah, no way.

 

 

aside: I work in the lighting industry in technology development, and I can say that you are the one who's FOS, not TSI+WRX. That doesn't mean that you don't mistakenly perceive an improvement with HID's; just that there actually is not an improvement. Color rendering is a very important concept, and if you have ever noticed that certain objects look strangely colored under a fluorescent lamp, then you are recognizing a problem with color rendering. Just an example.

 

This thread cracks me up. So many F'd up blanket statements it's rediclous. I'm sorry you're experience with HID lighting (if there is any) has sucked. I'm sorry your eyes lie to you.

 

My experience and millions of others has been great. I'd like all of the German auto engineers to read this nonsense and hear their points of view on why the Autobahn has been a catalyst for better lighting. "Hmmmm...100MPH+? I think we need to see a little further down the road." And you do see further and crisper and clearer. Oh wait, I'm being lied to again!

 

Dangit, that must NOT be a car on the side of the road with it's lights off up there! I wish I had my halogens to tell me the truth! What am I going to do?!?!? I don't want to be lied to anymore! Ahhhhhhh!!!! :lol:

 

Gimme a friggin' break. Lots of nonsense in here.

[TSiWRX]

^ Exactly, it's not that we're bashing HIDs - it's that biologically, objectively, factually - scientifically - it's simply not a "perfect system."

 

HIDs give increased performance under certain conditions with a trade-off for others. That flooded foreground isn't *all* bad, there's positives to it, as we've all mentioned, but it definitely negatively impacts other areas of night-time visual performance.

[LittleBlueGT]

The HID worshipers are silenced!

[praedet]

Mine do pretty well in inclement weather, with a full retrofit...

 

better or worse is subjective...

 

I agree with Allen though...

 

Ted

[TSiWRX]

In inclimate weather, HIDs tend to have some disadvantages.

 

Color-temperature aside, the biggest problem is how much light they cast in the foreground, i.e. immediately in front of your vehicle.

 

While awesome for seeing every little fissure in the pavement in front of you and literally allowing you to count pebbles, this extraordinary amount of light, cast on a highly reflective or scatter-prone surface/surfaces, causes an increased amount of reflected/refracted glare for the driver.

 

This, unfortunately, cannot be easily mitigated through current technology.

 

The aforementioned color-temperature "problem" usually arise moreso in aftermarket applications where the end-user has made the mistake - become a fashion victim - and insists on higher (typically > 5000K) color-temperature systems. The distinctly bluer to more violet shift in the light cast will very readily cause more glare, this time to both the driver and oncoming traffic.

 

This, however, can be circumvented by choosing color-temperatures that are in the yellower range, such as that which is typically equipped with the vast majority of OEM applications - between 4100 and 4600K. Alternatively, you can pair HIDs with either standard incandescent halogens and/or "selective yellow" output, true "fog" pattern lamps in either halogen or HID configuration. You will actually see such pairings on many high-end automobiles that take foul-weather considerations into their design/purpose parameters.

 

Since the "stark white" light of good HIDs can also cause color-rendition as well as border/edge delineation and depth perception problems which become heightened in cases of foul weather (and where things like roadside curbing become dirtied and obscured), the pairing of some form of "yellow" light with HIDs can also help tremendously in this particular aspect.

 

 

And indeed, like brother Ted said, "better/worse" is very, very subjective.

 

Especially when it comes to things like our vision and how we perceive things, the sheer biological differences between individuals can often make such arguments totally invalid.

 

Since such differences are often heightened as the ability to see clearly gets worse - i.e. heading in to foul weather - it only becomes harder to say, truly, who might be "more right."

[mccorry]

I think the stock LGT headlights are more than adequate. They are the best projectors I have seen.

 

MHO is that HID's are 1/3 performance and 2/3 fad. Alot of hype for a slightly brighter / blue'r light.