scubie02 Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 Driver72, Well, I guess we just disagree on our perceptions of labels. Saab and Acura, as well as Volvo, Infiniti, and probably even Audi (though its on the fringe maybe these days) are really second tier "premium" labels in my mind, and many others I think, though of course we all have our own outlook. First tier would be MB and BMW, and MAYBE Audi and Jaguar. Oh, and possibly Lexus these days--they would be the closest Japanese nameplate to a premium. (Brands like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Ferrari, etc are in a class by themselves above the premium's, obviously--we're talking mainstream premiums). Cars like Volvo's, Saab's, Acura's, etc are not at all in the same class to most people I don't think. Acura is improving, perhaps, but still fwd which hurts their aspirations. Volvo's, Saabs etc are for "quirky" types that are looking for something different and marginally upscale. Lots of college professors and such drive them. AT least in my area, where you find them you will also find lots of Subaru's--they seem to appeal to the same "type". So I would think that someone shopping volvo or audi or acura might very well consider the subaru, too--I did, and I also considered the S40, TSX etc (not an Audi--one bad experience with the reliability of VW/Audi vehicles was enough for me thanks). On a different note--I think that perhaps one reason why the wrx got compared to the BMW and Audi and was praised by C&D probably was precisely because there WAS a pretty sizeable perception that these cars weren't int he same class. So here you get the little underdog from the streets, and he's comparing VERY well performance wise with the "well to do"--but the interior etc aren't letting anyone forget where they all come from. With the Legacy, this difference in pedigree is MUCH less perceptible. Because of this its not going to be cut any slack if things aren't right up to snuff. Acura has been trying to build a more upscale car to compete with the euro's for years, and having more experience they pull it off better. The Legacy is very nice, and a HUGE improvement, but still not quite there. I can see losing some points for that, and its not a big deal for me. I can see C&D saying that OVERALL, they liked the TSX better--thats a JUDGEMENT call and subjective. They are not going to figure in things like the TSX's rep for bad tranny's or lots of squeaks and rattles--you probably aren't running into that in a comparo of new cars--owners get stuck with those down the road. The Volvo is a harder sell for me. I did consider it. Its a good looking vehicle--nice conservative/classy outside, and I like the "floating" center console alot. But thats really all the interior has going for it--otherwise its possibly not as nice as the LGT's. And lets face it, you can get a LOADED Mazda 3, based on the same platform, for wayyy less money, and its just as nice looking or more so--so who is getting the Volvo (unless you perceive more snob appeal). Its also fwd, and even if it were awd, volvo's awd tends to be a fwd-transfer power if you slip deal--no thanks. BUT, there again, I guess all that's a judgement call. C&D must have liked something else about it I guess. But its not going to keep me up at night... [quote name='Driver72'] Acura and Saab are "premium" labels. Subaru is not. The Subaru is priced in the area of the cars I listed them with above. The "premium" brand cars are all listed in about the same price category or a price level up, with the exception of the TSX. I would NOT put the Subaru in the same category since it is "Not" considered a "premium" label. True the TSX is on the low side of the "premium" label, but it's still Honda's premium label. Someone shopping an Audi, BMW, Volvo, are NOT going to be cross shopping a Subaru. Even people shopping Acura and Infiniti will most likely NOT cross shop Subaru. Now people shopping for Honda, Toyota, VW, and Nissan WILL more often give Subaru a look and compare it to the cars like the Passat, Accord, etc. The Subaru is priced SQUARELY in the middle of the price of these cars. It's NOT priced with equally equipped BMW, Audi, Volvo's, Infiniti's, etc.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godwhomismike Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 [quote]Volvo's, Saabs etc are for "quirky" types that are looking for something different and marginally upscale. Lots of college professors and such drive them. AT least in my area, where you find them you will also find lots of Subaru's--they seem to appeal to the same "type". [/quote] Hmmmm no wonder why I was drawn to the Volvo, Saab, and the Subaru. I work in a college as a systems admin, and while I am not considered a professor, I hold seminars at least once a week where I teach students important online systems that are now used for the many online courses this college offers. I plan next Fall to embark onto my Master's and PHD so I can become a college professor. - Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jk Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 "With partners like these below, I can't see how they could associate crime and Subaru together - what a disgrace " C'mon, those horticultural society types give us all a bad name! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 The entire article is now posted on NASIOC's News/Rumors. I'm reading now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerdave Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 I'm not... I'm hoping to get my issue in the mail today. Then I can take my time reading it on "the throne." :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godwhomismike Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 I'm sure if the Legacy's suspension was set as firm as concrete, driving over a slightly rough road makes it necessary to see a chiropractor, had a 10" navi screen smack in the middle of the dash, and had an engine that you needed to wind out past 7000 rpm to get any power, then the Legacy would've maybe come close to first in the C&D comparison. - Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 I do like their Michelin tires aren't so athletic comment, but then they say it has the reflexes of a knife fighter. There are quite a few inconsistencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT Ski Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 Hey I didn't know Subaru was associated with PSIA, maybe I can get a VIP discount! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicd Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 Well as some of you may or may not know, I have a LGT Wgn Ltd on which I grafted the spec b suspension mated to Falken Azenis 225/45/17. Anyway when I read the chasis report I really fell off my chair, I kept on saying as I was reading this is not possible, hell I can corner at greater speeds , no body roll, no nose diving crazy stopping this must not be the same. I called up my budy and told him about the article, he owns a 2004 TSX anyway i asked him if he wanted to go for a ride and swap the cars, he agreed. Well to be objective the TSX has a very nice interior and a beautifull manual tranny, but that is where it stops. Even thou my car is a 5EAT we both came to the same conclusion----WOW what were CD on when they did the review? it was clearly a faster much tighter ride even thou the TSX was on Toyo Proxes tires the summer ones not the solo ones. The spec b suspension is really the big differance I feel, however it is clear that if this suspension came stock it would be over for the others having said that it does change the car from a GT to a more hardcore car. Ah yes the infamous RE92s yes V rated but still not a real performance tire. Then let us say this, you have not really enjoyed this car fully untill you upgrade the tires, once you throw in a stock Subaru part(yes off a spec B but still) what a car and what a top notch chasis. CD are right the Legacy with the RE92s should be last, it is a shame to have such a wonderfull car with horrible shoes. Do not let this article deter you from buying a Legacy, just budget the tires in your purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerdave Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 Cool post Nic! That's cool to do the back-to-back drives with the TSX. I think -- should people be so inclined -- that once spring/strut/bar combos start coming out for the GT, that should take most of those complaints away... after they upgrade the shoes. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUBE555 Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 And those who put up the RE92's scapegoat pic go ahead, because it's true, the scapegoat is really the problem though and should really be sent out to pasture! Or maybe shot. :lol: I think I may be looking into a Spec B suspension this spring, your words are an inspiration to us all nicd. :mrgreen: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drift Monkey Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 I'm sure the wagon benefitted from the Azenis the most! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godwhomismike Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 [quote name='SUBE555']I do like their Michelin tires aren't so athletic comment, but then they say it has the reflexes of a knife fighter. There are quite a few inconsistencies.[/quote] There is over a second and a half difference with the times compared to the Legacy. The article spends a lot of time faulting and rarely praising the Legacy. Another interest observation would be the front seat comfort which got an 8, yet it was the most roomiest and all, yet the TSX which "needs morer seat padding" got a 10 for seat comfort. Preformance got a perfect 10 for the TSX, and a 7 or 8 for the Legacy. - Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBY Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 I really wish C&D would kill that stupid scoring system and try and write a little more about the cars they test. Driving a great car is an emotional experience not a score from 1 to 10 in 30 or so categories :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 Especially subjective categories like "Styling" Who are they to say which car has great styling and which doesn't. I think readers can make that up themselves. And the "gotta have it" category which they give 25 points too. That's more than the Engine Performance and Chassis Performance...combined!! I think people can make up their minds which they "gotta have" If they stick to the facts about the car and give those FACTS (performance numbers/braking/etc) the MOST points then their actually DRIVING impressions/views followed by a "features and content" sections, they could come to better, more realistic conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 [quote name='Driver72']Especially subjective categories like "Styling" Who are they to say which car has great styling and which doesn't. I think readers can make that up themselves. And the "gotta have it" category which they give 25 points too. That's more than the Engine Performance and Chassis Performance...combined!! I think people can make up their minds which they "gotta have" If they stick to the facts about the car and give those FACTS (performance numbers/braking/etc) the MOST points then their actually DRIVING impressions/views followed by a "features and content" sections, they could come to better, more realistic conclusions.[/quote] This is the same magazine that loved the 350Z interior. My crapper has better materials in it than the inside of a 350Z. OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crapy Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 some one at NASIOC scanned the article: [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=624068[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SchnellerGT Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 Wow, those skidpad and breaking numbers are very disappointing for a possible buyer like me! I hope Subaru is reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest *Jedimaster* Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 Well, they're even worse for the Outback, which has less beefy hardware for braking. But I think the cars serve their purpose very well. People are happy with them in the main. And the average driver won't even be able to duplicate those numbers on the street anyway, at least in the area of handling. Those of us who want more, myself included, will be happy to do the mods. For me, it'll be once the factory brakes, etc. wear out. It's actually kind of fun to have the mods to look forward to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurpman Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 Personally, I was very impressed with the Volvo's numbers. Fastest 5-60, highest trap speed, best braking (by far). And best gas mileage!! Power/weight looks inferior to the legacy, but its 236 ft-lbs come on at 1500 rpm which has to be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 [quote name='gurpman']Personally, I was very impressed with the Volvo's numbers. Fastest 5-60, highest trap speed, best braking (by far). And best gas mileage!! Power/weight looks inferior to the legacy, but its 236 ft-lbs come on at 1500 rpm which has to be nice.[/quote] yeah.. if we only got the twinscroll.. "unnecessary" yyyeck..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3.7L H6 Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 Let's wait for Motor Trend's take. I like them better. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerdave Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 [quote name='SchnellerGT']Wow, those skidpad and breaking numbers are very disappointing for a possible buyer like me! I hope Subaru is reading.[/quote] Are you serious? :?: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beanboy Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 What's with the 7.6 second 5-60? As mentioned a WRX beats that time... -B -B http://www.standardshift.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver72 Posted September 4, 2004 Share Posted September 4, 2004 [quote name='SchnellerGT']Wow, those skidpad and breaking numbers are very disappointing for a possible buyer like me! I hope Subaru is reading.[/quote] Don't take skidpad too seriously on an AWD car. They always score less. I think this skidpad number was the same as they got for the WRX. And again, even with better tires, you know the skidpad would have improved dramatically. Yes, the braking was a bit bad, part of that is too blame on the tires again. Better tires would drop 10 feet off that distance. These RE92's are like on the bottom of the list at Tirerack for the tires...in their class of all season performance tires, which aren't that great to begin with. Pretty much ANY other performance tire would have been an improvement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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