Resleeve vs. Bore + pistons

[KZJonny]

This is at the moment just a thought experiment, my engine is fine and healthy, so I don’t need to do anything in a hurry.

I pulled an engine from a parts car along with a pile of other stuff that ended up being pretty useful to me. (The VF40 out of it is now rebuilt and in my car, leaving me with a known good spare, etc…) With space restriction and building a garage in mu back yard, the engine was tarped up on it’s engine stand. I think during one of the more violent summer storms we got, some water found it’s way into the cylinders one one side.

Not the end of the world, since I don’t know the history of the engine aside from the fact that it was installed into the parts car at 90K km, and the car had 230xxx when I picked it up (running) for $500 CAD.

So, the engine was never a great candidate as a ‘spare’ without a refresh.

The damage in the bore isn’t too bad, and I am pretty sure I just need to give the valves that saw some water a lapping. I’ll test all this in future.

My question then, is given that sleeves +new rings would mean I can reuse pistons etc…. Is this the most reasonable way to rebuild an engine to keep as a spare short block.

Doing a bore +pistons is a pile more money with no meaningful increase in displacement. Machine shop costs would be similar, or maybe more for the over bore, I would think…

I would consider doing main bearings as well, because ‘while I’m in there’.

Either of these options should net a refreshed short block I can build on if I have to, for like 1/3 the cost of buying an assembled RA shortblock or OE EJ257 shortblock. (I think?!)

To be very clear, the car was not, I think well loved, or meticulously maintained, but there isn’t too much grot in the valve covers or coolant passages. I can clean pretty much everything and re-use it. The engine did not detonate or have a glittery oil situation. Just leaked everything from everywhere.

[m sprank]

I am NOT a fan of sleeving an EJ.  My experience is the sleeve drops. Maybe it works for a completely stock type set up, cant say I ever tried that.  

I cant say I recommend re-using pistons to save money either.  If money is the problem and you need a running car you could (not my first choice, but you could) buy a used jdm ej20x and swap for less. 

[KZJonny]

This is just to have a spare engine/short block in my garage ready and waiting. No hurry, and I would also rather not go the EJ20x route. They’re not cheaper in Canada at any rate… probably still $3-4K for a JDM import here.

I can’t find a part number for just plain OEM piston sleeves, but I will keep looking. It’s possible you can’t buy them separately from the case halves?

Reusing the pistons would be based on visual inspection and measurement to determine wear. *If* new OEM sleeves can be found, what do you see is the problem with reusing them? Worn pistons into new sleeves is wasting money?

So it seems like the most reasonable, cost effective options would be looking for a used shortblock or case halves.

Or a 0.020” (is that first size up on these engines?) over bore + new OEM pistons and rings, maybe main bearings if the current ones show much wear/done measure up to spec…?

[Max Capacity]

Depends on how much you love the car, and how long do you really want to keep putting into it...how old is it now ?

Back in early 2012 I talked with an old family friend that happens to own one of the best auto machine shops in the area. He also did the Darton sleeves in our Honda 1.6L's. Oh, also, most Subaru dealers in the area send them their heads along with other dealers and repair shops.

He told me, for my HP goals, it was cheaper to buy a new ej257 then pay for his guys to machine my ej255. These engines are more labor than other V or in-line engines. 

http://eastwoodsautomachine.com/  email or call them, tell them I sent you. On their Import page, that's our yellow civic, with red valve cover, before it became a full drag race car.

You can't do sleeves in your driveway.

If you want to rebuild what you have, there are youtube videos on "how to rebuild your ej255/257". Watch how they come apart and how they hone the cylinders. As you know, the heads should be rebuilt too. 

Oh, the machine shop told me, my heads were the first set of these heads he'd seen that didn't need any valves. The car was on Cobb AP since it first came out, Dec 2004, the car had 8000 miles at that time.

 

Watch the youtube, make a list of the parts you think you'll need, put the prices on the list...then figure if it's worth it...?

 

 

 

 

[m sprank]

Jeremy at Outfront Motorsports is a WELATH of knowledge and when he has time he gives you the truth.  John (the owner) has been building Subie engines for over 20 years.  I learned SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much working with John.

(714) 994-5222
Se habla Español
Outfront Motorsports is open M-F 7:30am-5pm

8071 Commonwealth Ave Buena Park, CA 90621

 

[KZJonny]

The car is practically brand new, it's an '05! Newest thing in my fleet by..... 27 years or so??

Next newest car is the '71 Datsun, so I'm hoping to get around 50 years out of the GT as well. 

Seriously tho. Unless some non North American manufacturer comes along that is making a manual trans, ICE, medium size wagon that has:

-no cameras
-no nav
-NO TOUCHSCREEN!!!
-a turbo
-an actual key to start the car (no press to start)
 

I think I am permanently out of the market for a "new" car. I'm going to keep the GT for good and a pick up whatever junk will get me through the winter for cheap reliably on top of that. When the OB gets too high kms, I'm thinking something really good on fuel like a Toyota Echo/Yaris or the like, I don't do any towing in the winter and seldom need tons of space when I'm not camping etc, so I really don't need 3 wagons around.

Hence asking and planning now to have another engine waiting in the garage for whenever the current one eats it, or just needs a refresh. As long as parts are still available, I can keep on swapping out engines until you can't get them anymore.

 

Sounds, on the whole, like a short block is probably going to be the simplest move and they are easily had (at the moment). I'll will use those contacts you guys sent me, but I always feel bad asking questions (even from the guys who know this stuff the best) and not practically being able to pay for their services. California is across the continent and the drive to New England and back would eliminate any saved money that might be had by rebuiling instead of just buying a new SB.

I know there are some machine shops around here that do a lot of work on Subarus as well, so I will maybe take a drive one day and go ask some questions. I know sleeves isn't a job you can do at home, and I know my limits of what I am capable of doing/learning. Machine work is out, clearly, but I can assemble an engine. I've done a few air cooled 4-cylinders for my motorcycles, and while I realize it's not the same level of complexity, the principals are the same. I'll need some better measuring tools, but that's a permanent investment in myself, so whatever.

I'll total the prices on parts and see where that gets me, as you said @Max Capacity. I'm going to say that if cost of parts exceeds 50% of the cost of a new EJ SB, then working in all the time +driving around + busted knuckles and labour it's probably smarter to just save up for an OEM EJ255/7 and build an engine from what I've got lying around + rebuilt heads from the donor.

[Max Capacity]

Yes, make the effort to check out your local machine shops. Build a relationship with them. The payback over time is great. 

[tysparks81]

I would say you could pick up a new OEM shortblock for anywhere from around 2500-3500 depending on where you source that locally.  I have a few local contacts if you want to go that route. 

The better option is to find some .20 over pistons/rings and drop them plus your existing shortblock to a local machine shop and you should be in the 2000-3000 range.

Darton sleeves can be bought for $400-500US before shipping/duties (some of which can be saved by shipping to a us PO box in Niagara Falls).  But the sleaving and boring may get you back into the 2-3k for the machine shop costs to put them in. 

[KZJonny]

I'll do some asking around. I've had some work done locally by a machinist and have come to know another guy in Niagara Falls who does lots of engines rebuilding, so there are a couple of local options.

I have to confess I'm a little surprised that a bore job would be ~$500 per cylinder. Always happy to pay someone for their time and skills, so I'm probably just underestimating the amount of time it takes to do a job like this.

Since this is mostly a theoretical thing right now, I'm not going to bother anyone too much over it, but a couple of phone calls to get an idea on pricing can't hurt. I'm only ~@155k kms on my engine right now, the power mods and limited, and I've done as many 'longevity promoters' as I am aware of. (Probably move to a GS intercooler as soon as I can afford one for the best cooling of intake charge possible in TMIC location...) Everything I've read suggests the COBB Stg. 2 tune is pretty conservative, so I'm not really expecting too many problems in the near future. I just tend to hoard parts, and always like having spares for common problems right at hand. Having a 'spare engine' is maybe a little extreme, but when I can afford it, I will do it. This way if something does seem to be going wrong with the current longblock, I can take it out of service and diagnose/rebuild and not have the car down for months or however long it take to rebuild a spare.

I've been seeing some fairly low km EJ257's out of smashed Sti's in the area selling for ~$5-6k, which for a 40-50k km engine is pretty low. I know there are some differences, but at that price for a a complete engine w/accessories just for the longblock, you could make a bunch back selling the plumbing turbo, etc....

Part of this has been questions I had as the availability of junkyard 4th Gens isn't terrible right now, but I suspect that it won't be too long before that start to dry up, or possibly the aftermarket discontinues manufacturing of LGT specific parts. So hoarding now and planning ahead.

I guess the money cannon solution of complete Sti engine + engine management is always an option as well, but once your getting into that price range, I would begin to consider other candidates for a vehicle. I could probably myself into my dream car '71-72 Datsun 240z for that kind of money.

[m sprank]

I will go halves on the 72 240z, has to be a 72 240z.  I had a pristine example offered to me when I was a senior in high school.  My step father raced for team Datsun as a 510 driver.  I had coveted a 72 240z since the age of 7.  Mom said "NO" and that was the end of my dream car.  Fuck you mom, I still want that car. 

[Max Capacity]

72 240z's are way kool. Had an Air Force buddy who had one back in 1973. 

[KZJonny]

1 hour ago, m sprank said:

I will go halves on the 72 240z, has to be a 72 240z.  I had a pristine example offered to me when I was a senior in high school.  My step father raced for team Datsun as a 510 driver.  I had coveted a 72 240z since the age of 7.  Mom said "NO" and that was the end of my dream car.  Fuck you mom, I still want that car. 

My Uncle owned one of the (only) 5 1971 Datsun 240z's to arrive in Ontario. My dad bought it from him and drove it across the country and back. That was pre-kids. In many of the photos of my folks I remember from growing up, there was a dark blue Zed in the background. I would love a '72, but would NOT turn down a '71...

When I started University, there was a '72 for sale just outside of town from me. Pretty solid, original engine, manual, etc... on some kind of vintage wheels. Running and insurable. $2500 CAD. I still kick myself for not buying it, but that was a looong time ago and I would've had to sell it along the way in any case. Tuition was $4k/year at the time, and I doubt my gig working at the parts department at Canadian Tire brought in much more than double that.... I never got in the habit of asking my parents if I could do a thing, Haha! I bought a $400 motorcycle instead and rode that around for a while.

Waited too long. 240z's are out of my price range now. So, I bought the second best thing to it a couple of years ago, my '71 510 wagon. Beat all to hell and it looks like a bottle of mustard got sick and puked all over it, but it's got an L20B a Weber 32/36 and a 5 speed. Good enough for a 2000lb car.

[tysparks81]

4 hours ago, KZJonny said:

I'll do some asking around. I've had some work done locally by a machinist and have come to know another guy in Niagara Falls who does lots of engines rebuilding, so there are a couple of local options.

I have to confess I'm a little surprised that a bore job would be ~$500 per cylinder. Always happy to pay someone for their time and skills, so I'm probably just underestimating the amount of time it takes to do a job like this.

Since this is mostly a theoretical thing right now, I'm not going to bother anyone too much over it, but a couple of phone calls to get an idea on pricing can't hurt. I'm only ~@155k kms on my engine right now, the power mods and limited, and I've done as many 'longevity promoters' as I am aware of. (Probably move to a GS intercooler as soon as I can afford one for the best cooling of intake charge possible in TMIC location...) Everything I've read suggests the COBB Stg. 2 tune is pretty conservative, so I'm not really expecting too many problems in the near future. I just tend to hoard parts, and always like having spares for common problems right at hand. Having a 'spare engine' is maybe a little extreme, but when I can afford it, I will do it. This way if something does seem to be going wrong with the current longblock, I can take it out of service and diagnose/rebuild and not have the car down for months or however long it take to rebuild a spare.

I've been seeing some fairly low km EJ257's out of smashed Sti's in the area selling for ~$5-6k, which for a 40-50k km engine is pretty low. I know there are some differences, but at that price for a a complete engine w/accessories just for the longblock, you could make a bunch back selling the plumbing turbo, etc....

Part of this has been questions I had as the availability of junkyard 4th Gens isn't terrible right now, but I suspect that it won't be too long before that start to dry up, or possibly the aftermarket discontinues manufacturing of LGT specific parts. So hoarding now and planning ahead.

I guess the money cannon solution of complete Sti engine + engine management is always an option as well, but once your getting into that price range, I would begin to consider other candidates for a vehicle. I could probably myself into my dream car '71-72 Datsun 240z for that kind of money.

$500/cylinder is what Barn built, Canadian cylinder heads, or Gord Bush would charge (Top subaru performance engine machine shops in GTA).  You are taking it to a less known machine shop so it shouldn't be nearly as expensive, but wanted to give you highest dollar for the services.  

If you go with a low KM WRX/STI motor there is a certain unknown that just doesn't sit well me me and I'm more of a since you have it out might as well address the trouble points.  So still doing timing & components, crank/rod bearings, HG's & headstuds would be my course of action on a used running motor.  You would need to use the heads from your motor or make sure the donner motor is single avcs.  So you can use your existing engine harness and and it will be plug and play.  You may need to deal with removing the air pumps & blocking off the holes on the block but that is pretty straight forward.   So you can sell the turbo and TMIC, and a few other bits.

For now there seem to be a few 4th gens kicking around at various wrecking yards here north of the boarder, but I have bought and used car-parts.com to find parts across North America.  Shipping can get expensive though so keep that in mind when using it.  Don't get out the money cannon yet as I agree money in the Datsun is better money spent.

[KZJonny]

Appreciate the info. If those are the prices that a place like Barn Built is charging, then I think I'd probably be in a spending catagory somewhere less than that. I know good machine work won't be dirt cheap, and I don't want to go there, but Barn Built is known to me (I do not know the other two, never having spent any meaningful amount of time in the GTA), and the kinds of engines they build are levels above where I aspire to!

I just need a thing to hold 17 psi and not burn too much oil while it's at it! Lol!

But yes, in the event I decide to re-use what I've got, it would need a thorough inspection, mains bearing, probably head studs, etc...

So, when/if the time comes, I'd be sharpening up the pencil and totalling some columns for all that. In the mean time, I think I'll take the used motor I have apart, and store it somewhere safe in case it is needed. I may also have a 3rd set of B25 heads being added to the parts bin, so I'll probably sell off a set to try and balance the books against all the other spending going on these days.