the journey of an overly maintained 3.6R

[silverton]

Performed an oil change Thursday evening with about 150-200 miles left of my arbitrarily chosen 3000 mile OCI.  Then drove 700 miles through the night and morning to Shelby, MT. Been a long long time since I've been awake 24 hours, let alone close to 30. Napped for a few hours Friday morning, enjoyed a lovely service for my grandma, visited the family farm, and then slept for 12 hours before deciding to just go home instead of spending a couple more nights there. Close to 1600 miles added to the clock just over the weekend! I got in the car last night to go get ice cream and noted she's at 64,666!

Yeah, I've got my own road...

Shame it's not being maintained though, middle of absolutelyfuckinnowhere, had to exercise all four axles and drag the under body plastics at a couple points. I'd love to take it over and maintain but the nearest subaru dealership is 2 hours/107 miles away, and you're essentially snowed in over the winter so there's that...

This is a lie.

 

Some notable points in the trip: super thick fog that my girlfriend insisted on driving too fast through even with the danger of large jumpy animals, HBA wasn't doing her any favors though and she didn't know how to turn it off.  This was the one point in the trip I was trying to nap on the way over.  she jerked me awake and all I see is like 10 feet of visibility and she's doing 70-80, "holy fuck k-mart SLOW DOWN"

Disappointingly when I attempted my nap in the back seat it just wasn't happening, the suspension felt as bad as it does on my third gen with 4x the miles. The car got 25-27mpg with the cruise set 5-7 over the limit with a max of 80mph.  Most of Montana is 75-80mph, Kayla was very surprised by this, 'why so fast?' yeah she came to realize montana is big and flat and 80 is actually kinda slow. She's basically never left WA state so I allow her some grace, except for when she asked if Montana had ocean access.... that made me feel pain.

HBA is kind of an asshole, there were many times I felt I needed to intervene and did get flashed at by a number of semi's, sorry guys! I'm not sure which 'feature' was intervening on the mountain curves, but once the steering angle got extreme enough at speed (cruise at 75-80 through a suggested 45mph bend) the car would scrub a few miles per hour, unsure if that's an eyesight cruise control safety thing or if that was whatever 'torque vectoring' marketing term bs is slapped on this badboy. at any rate, the car slowed down in tight corners!

And finely, holy fuck is this thing a brick, what fuckin wind tunnel was this tested in??  I felt like I was getting thrown around worse than any of the cars I've done this same drive in over the years, up to and including a 1995 Pathfinder, which is literally a brick. The wind made me change lanes on the way back just as I got on to the Vantage bridge, I know the wind is bad there but that's never happened to me before, got the heart rate up that's for sure.

[m sprank]

5th gens are not 4th gens.  The cars became boats.  But still drive like they are on the open seas.  Floaty.  I despise the extra electronics as well.  I purchased the "dumbest" car I could find to avoid all the new tech.  Enjoy your trip.

[DougKelly20]

HBA can be turned off by selecting ON on the light stalk. When it's in auto HBA is on and when it's ON HBA is off.

When I first purchased my 2019 3.6R it was super floaty on the highway. I found my tires were over inflated from the factory (or more likely by the dealership). Once that was corrected it was better. However it got much better when I upgraded the RSB and put a Strut bar in the front.  

I have a spare strut bar if you want it but with shipping from NY to WA you're probably better off buying your own brand new.

[ammcinnis]

8 hours ago, silverton said:

And finely, ... is this thing a brick, what ... wind tunnel was this tested in??

The published drag coefficient (Cd) of the Gen 6 Legacy is 0.29, which is pretty respectable. Not so long ago, that was racecar territory. In fact, the published Cd for my 1969 Porsche 911S was 0.29, and it was considered remarkably low at the time. Of course, the Gen 6 Legacy has a substantially larger frontal area than the early 911s.

[m sprank]

So in over 50 years we have progressed from a steriodial VW to a steriodial Subaru.  An 05 LGT was published at 0.31cd.  A NASCAR truck has been tested at 0.489cd.  But what about the lift coefficient?  Subaru does not publish that.  The NASCAR truck was -0.815.  With over 10000 iterations this testing proved that if a NASCAR had the same drag coefficient as an F1 car the NASCAR would be slower.  Why?  Because F1 cars (open wheel) have notoriously high CD's. 

CD is not everything.  It is  a single piece of a complex puzzle. 

Anyone who has driven a 4th gen, 5th gen and 6th gen will tell you the 4th gen feels the most planted.  That the 5th and 6th gen feel "floaty", "boxy", big and heavy.  Not what you want to feel in a performance sedan.  Sorry, when Toyota got involved and sales skyrocketed the "quirkiness" of a Subaru was gone.  What made a Subaru a Subaru has disappeared.  The masses know not what they are missing. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by m sprank

[ammcinnis]

6 minutes ago, m sprank said:

A NASCAR truck has been tested at 0.489cd. But what about the lift coefficient? ... The NASCAR truck was -0.815.

Impressive.

[m sprank]

2 minutes ago, ammcinnis said:

Impressive.

It is.  Race car engineering is amazing.  I always hope it trickles down to mass produced vehicles while I can still enjoy driving.

[xt2005bonbon]

25 minutes ago, m sprank said:

 The masses know not what they are missing. 

Like frameless windows

Some people hate them but I still like them.

[m sprank]

Love my frameless windows.  Up until 150mph.  In my 85 Corvette it was not an issue.  But in my 08 SpecB....   between 150mph and 152mph the windows began to "pull" open, flexing outwards from the weather stripping.  The turbulence noise was deafening.  The car was already a bit unstable at speed and the added noise, turbulence and odd aerodynamic effect was enough to cause me to slow.  We had reached the limit of the current set up and, unfortunately, never pushed the car further.  With proper aero and suspension set up we planned to shoot for 160mph.

This was done during a "Test and Tune" day at AAA Speedway in Fontana, CA.  A NASCAR oval, not a public road.  DONT be a douche bag. 

[silverton]

20 hours ago, DougKelly20 said:

HBA can be turned off by selecting ON on the light stalk. When it's in auto HBA is on and when it's ON HBA is off.

When I first purchased my 2019 3.6R it was super floaty on the highway. I found my tires were over inflated from the factory (or more likely by the dealership). Once that was corrected it was better. However it got much better when I upgraded the RSB and put a Strut bar in the front.  

I have a spare strut bar if you want it but with shipping from NY to WA you're probably better off buying your own brand new.

Appreciate the insight!  I bought a '17 specifically for the introduction of HBA so I want to use it; this was just the first time I've been in the ideal use case, highways at night. I keep my tires at 35psi all around, maybe I should follow the OE spec of 33F32R.  I'm not quite ready to do any mods to it, but after this trip my desire to get it closer to the ground increases.

As an aside, your tires were over inflated by the factory/dealership.  They're pressurized at close to 50psi for shipping and the dealership, during the PDI, is supposed to set that to street pressure before delivery.

[m sprank]

Dont get me started on the tire debate.  I lived though the Ford/Firestone debacle.  Auto manufactures do not design, engineer or build tires.  The air pressure recommendations on your door sill are from the auto manufacturer, not the tire manufacturer.  They are also SPECIFIC to the EXACT tire the car came delivered with.  Most times the tires have a name brand and model, but the retail model IS NOT the same as what the car was delivered with.  The tire manufactures make changes specified by the auto manufacturer. 

That being said.  The air pressure recommended by the auto manufactures is generally LOW to the point of being outside the tires design parameters.  If a tire is rated at 50psi max load and you operate it at 32psi the tire is underinflated by 36%.  The tire manufacture will consider this to be "flat" and all warranties expressed or implied are invalidated. 

In my personal experiments a 4th gen LGT rides best on the road at approximately 42psi front and 40psi rear.  I never tested a 5th gen, but would expect similar results. 

Running tires underinflated dramatically increases the heat generated by rolling resistance.  This increases internal air pressure slightly, but also leads to BOOM, especially if the if the vehicle is over loaded or driven at excessive speed.  Just my $0.02.

[DougKelly20]

Yeah you should be nowhere near max inflation. Mine was at 42 PSI on stock tires and the car was on its tip toes. At 33/32 cold in non winter conditions they ran at 35/34 while warm/hot and not only did it handle correctly, but the tire wear was even across the tire, so to me, that's the correct setting. 

Of course then I went up to 245/45, upped the load index to 100 from 95, dropped the pressures based on a load index chart provided by ammcinnis, and took it to the track so my current settings notwithstanding, when I WAS stock, the manu settings felt appropriate, and the evidence that they WERE appropriate was the even tire wear.

[m sprank]

There is more to tire wear than inflation.  Alignment specs alone, load, speed, etc.    Tire wear is not generally an appropriate measure of inflation. 

Track use is NOT street use.  It is apparent that most members here have never actually been involved in a crash deconstruction or DOT investigation.  I will keep my  knowledge and 40 years in the automotive/racing industry experience to myself.  Carry on. 

[MoleMan]

@Sllverton,

 

With your nearest dealer being over 10 miles away that's a good thing.  Mine is over 200 in any direction.  

As far as my HBA I rarely use that feature. Come to think on it I rarely use the Fog lights either even in heavy fog.  It's something that comes normal in anything but summertime around here so most people just drive in the fast lane on I-80 to avoid any semi traffic coming up.  

 

As far as Montana. They used to not have a daytime posted speed limit when I lived there.  However most Montana drivers I see are always going 80-90 all the time.  Our speed limit on the highway is 80 while most people do 85 on a regular basis.  However going over a three mountain pass called the sisters in the middle of December I would strongly advise against that.  On that note anyone want to get bonus points guessing where the "Sisters" are?  And no it's not Oregon or Washington.  Some folks local to me might chime in.

 

Surprisingly the 3.6 for me is great in gas. 28 MPG is average for me.

 

 

 

[MoleMan]

11 hours ago, DougKelly20 said:

Yeah you should be nowhere near max inflation. Mine was at 42 PSI on stock tires and the car was on its tip toes. At 33/32 cold in non winter conditions they ran at 35/34 while warm/hot and not only did it handle correctly, but the tire wear was even across the tire, so to me, that's the correct setting. 

Of course then I went up to 245/45, upped the load index to 100 from 95, dropped the pressures based on a load index chart provided by ammcinnis, and took it to the track so my current settings notwithstanding, when I WAS stock, the manu settings felt appropriate, and the evidence that they WERE appropriate was the even tire wear.

I like to lower my PSI in the winter if I am going to be in a snowy/icy area. Most of the time I lower them to about 30 on all 4s. Granted I am running WS90 Blizzaks.

 

In the summer I tend to put them up to 36 on all 4s and they go up to 38 and I find that ok for the drive.  40 is ok sometimes but the ride gets tough.

[MoleMan]

11 hours ago, m sprank said:

Dont get me started on the tire debate.  I lived though the Ford/Firestone debacle.  Auto manufactures do not design, engineer or build tires.  The air pressure recommendations on your door sill are from the auto manufacturer, not the tire manufacturer.  They are also SPECIFIC to the EXACT tire the car came delivered with.  Most times the tires have a name brand and model, but the retail model IS NOT the same as what the car was delivered with.  The tire manufactures make changes specified by the auto manufacturer. 

That being said.  The air pressure recommended by the auto manufactures is generally LOW to the point of being outside the tires design parameters.  If a tire is rated at 50psi max load and you operate it at 32psi the tire is underinflated by 36%.  The tire manufacture will consider this to be "flat" and all warranties expressed or implied are invalidated. 

In my personal experiments a 4th gen LGT rides best on the road at approximately 42psi front and 40psi rear.  I never tested a 5th gen, but would expect similar results. 

Running tires underinflated dramatically increases the heat generated by rolling resistance.  This increases internal air pressure slightly, but also leads to BOOM, especially if the if the vehicle is over loaded or driven at excessive speed.  Just my $0.02.

My 4th Gen 3.0R rides like crap with the tires above 40.  I find that they do well at 36.  Running a Cisco rear sway and a Whiteline front bar with a Cisco strut tower brace and Whiteline endlinks but again your GT does not have the Bilstein suspension like the 3.0s and the Spec Bs. They tend to be harsher then regular Leggy springs.

[MoleMan]

On 6/20/2023 at 10:23 AM, ammcinnis said:

The published drag coefficient (Cd) of the Gen 6 Legacy is 0.29, which is pretty respectable. Not so long ago, that was racecar territory. In fact, the published Cd for my 1969 Porsche 911S was 0.29, and it was considered remarkably low at the time. Of course, the Gen 6 Legacy has a substantially larger frontal area than the early 911s.

Well said.

 

I worked for Nascar/ISC for a few years. In specific working on the CD specs for the Dodge cars when they were making a comeback.  If I can recall a Lamborghini LP 5000 Countach has a CD of .31.  As far as bringing that tech to market on a commercial basis Dodge was really the first with the cab forward design in the mid 90s.

[MoleMan]

On 6/20/2023 at 9:12 AM, DougKelly20 said:

HBA can be turned off by selecting ON on the light stalk. When it's in auto HBA is on and when it's ON HBA is off.

When I first purchased my 2019 3.6R it was super floaty on the highway. I found my tires were over inflated from the factory (or more likely by the dealership). Once that was corrected it was better. However it got much better when I upgraded the RSB and put a Strut bar in the front.  

I have a spare strut bar if you want it but with shipping from NY to WA you're probably better off buying your own brand new.

On my 18 all I do to put HBA on is push the stalk forward while the lights are in the on position.  What I hate is some 17s have the bulky setup on the mirror instead on the one unit in the later models.

 

All I can say is I have used the feature once in five years.  

[Enlight]

This is the first time I ventured into the 6th gen forums. Welcome, @silverton. It's nice to have a Subaru tech on board.

[m sprank]

1 hour ago, MoleMan said:

My 4th Gen 3.0R rides like crap with the tires above 40.  I find that they do well at 36.  Running a Cisco rear sway and a Whiteline front bar with a Cisco strut tower brace and Whiteline endlinks but again your GT does not have the Bilstein suspension like the 3.0s and the Spec Bs. They tend to be harsher then regular Leggy springs.

I ran my 08 Spec B at 42 front 40 rear up until we hit north of 140mph.  18" rpf1.  Would need to check notes for specific tire, suspension, alignment specs (if I still have them).  When we hit the oval and reached 152mph we changed up everything. But for street I was fine at 42/40.  Learn to drive? 

[DougKelly20]

21 hours ago, m sprank said:

There is more to tire wear than inflation.  Alignment specs alone, load, speed, etc.    Tire wear is not generally an appropriate measure of inflation. 

Track use is NOT street use.  It is apparent that most members here have never actually been involved in a crash deconstruction or DOT investigation.  I will keep my  knowledge and 40 years in the automotive/racing industry experience to myself.  Carry on. 

Very true on all points...yet with all other things being equal (as I mentioned prior to changing my setup everything was fully stock, properly aligned and inflated to factory spec) over inflation should cause tires to wear more in the middle and under inflation on BOTH edges (alignment factors like improper camber would wear only one edge)  We bought a used WRX last year that was properly aligned but inflated 5-8 PSI over stock (which is also 33/32) and it has 1 to 1.5 mm lower tread on the middle so we lowered them. 

I'm just saying to the highway handling issue that mine handled like garbage at 42 PSI and ONLY changing inflation was a huge help.

[DougKelly20]

7 hours ago, m sprank said:

I ran my 08 Spec B at 42 front 40 rear up until we hit north of 140mph.  18" rpf1.  Would need to check notes for specific tire, suspension, alignment specs (if I still have them).  When we hit the oval and reached 152mph we changed up everything. But for street I was fine at 42/40.  Learn to drive? 

Your arrogant comments about your experience and telling people to learn to drive are unnecessary. 

Edited June 22, 2023 by DougKelly20

[m sprank]

Learning to drive is a lifelong experience.  You never stop learning.  Cars and track time are extremely expensive.  Consistant practice over long periods is neccessary to teach the muscles and brain.  It is tiring physically and mentally. Focus is key.  I was lucky and had the oppertunity to begin young.

I no longer have the sponsors or funds to continue my ambitions on track.  Age has slowed me as well.  Maybe even a glimpse of mortality flashed in my head a lap ot two.  It was time to call it. 

But... I have found that for a fraction of my seasons tire budget I can now drive every day in my sim.  I am enjoying the sport again and realizing that I too need more time behind the wheel.  Having the ability to drive so many different courses, cars and disciplines (all while controlling car set up and tune) is humbling.  I have a new appreciaction for rallye drivers. I have only cracked the top 10 once in a race against live drivers (been driving a 72 240z, going back to my roots). Left foot braking and left foot trail braking on throttle is new to me.  I too have more to learn.

As alignment specs change with load, as does rolling resistance, dc, lift ce, and more I recommend starting at the tire manufacturers recommeneded pressures for the load range carried.  Too many drivers and passengers have paid with their lives for driving on underinflated and overloaded tires.  Race cars don't change load without purpose and adjustments and are very specific to their purpose.

Sorry for blowing up your long term maintenance thread.

[XT-sub]

11 hours ago, DougKelly20 said:

... over inflation should cause tires to wear more in the middle and under inflation on BOTH edges (alignment factors like improper camber would wear only one edge)

....

I'm just saying to the highway handling issue that mine handled like garbage at 42 PSI and ONLY changing inflation was a huge help.

Spot on. That has been my experience also.

[m sprank]

Can we get off the tire pressure trip and let @silverton continue his thread?  I would be happy to openly debate any members unscientific butt research to that I have accumulated from manufactures and professional race teams, in another thread.  The misconceptions and "Bro-science" abound.  This is how inaccurate information is disseminated and somehow becomes inter-web truth. 

 

For anyone running around at 32-36psi on tires rated for 50psi at max load.  Its summer.  Asphalt gets hot.  Loading your car for the road trip changes the weight and dynamics of the car.  Check your air pressure COLD.  You need more air to carry the extra weight of the travel load.  With the added heat of summer be cautious of speed with load.  A tire failure at speed with excess load is a recipe for DISASTER.