New '07 Spec B owner possible turbo failure.. need an education

[Bobsyouruncl]

Hey so I finally got tuned and here are the dyno plots.

 

The power number is what I was aiming for so no disappointment there but the spool isn't up to snuff imo. My tuner told me as much before I got there but the turbo he suggested was 8 weeks back ordered. He thinks a VF52 would spool 1000 rmpish faster.

 

I don't know what to think about the taper. With my mods I was expecting much better spool and to hold a bit more boost to redline. Maybe I'm crazy?

 

Regardless it seems to be running fine and is much improved over stock for sure. I have aspirations to throw a different turbo at it some day but not sure when.

 

It was also suggested to run a blend of 30%ish ethanol so an e85 kit may be in the future.

[blackobxt]

I have about the same results with my bnr16g. I just got tuned and my tuner told me what I was already feeling, that it comes into boost real lazy. Ive checked everything and it just doesn’t come into boost worth a damn and I’m currently looking into a vf52 or similar. Ive found threads with datalogs of the bnr coming into full boost hard with the same timing I’m running and ive found threads complaining about the same issues we’re experiencing.

 

What turbo did your tuner recommend?

[Bobsyouruncl]

He said "get a new turbo"

 

He originally recommended a blouch 380xt. He said a kinugawa might be good, barring those two a vf52 would be better. I had already bought this one and he strongly advised against running it. I see now why. I didn't want to wait on back order and threw it on. Wouldn't take much to change it out.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Bobsyouruncl

[Max Capacity]

Here's my vf52 on stock fueling.

 

 

[blackobxt]

It’s hard not to take money out of my new car funds to buy another turbo, especially now that I have yet another person to confirm my feelings on the bnr16g

[JmP6889928]

Find a VF52 core and send it to me and I'll build you one that's far better all around than the BNR.

[blackobxt]

Find a VF52 core and send it to me and I'll build you one that's far better all around than the BNR.

 

On it!

 

How bad can a core be before you can’t do anything with them? I always see a bunch but they almost always have a crack right at the wastegate

Edited August 19, 2021 by blackobxt

[Max Capacity]

OH, I should also mention, my heads are ported, not sure if that help's spool or just the mid-range power.

[Bobsyouruncl]

It’s hard not to take money out of my new car funds to buy another turbo, especially now that I have yet another person to confirm my feelings on the bnr16g

 

Ya I mean look at max's power curve comes on hard at 3200 and mine doesn't peak till 4300, that's terrible, and it aint my car. My mods should handle a much quicker spool and the motor is brand new. It makes a slight bit more peak power but it's pretty much useless below 3k rpm. I talked to the tuner and he told me yesterday that the "boost control on the dyno was pretty bad." He then told me what could cause that

 

"poor actuator volume to spring ratio

actuator to door surface area

Excessively high back pressure

EBCS issues

 

all sorts of things. Overall, it's common on crappy turbos."

 

I have a brand new GS EBCS and there's no indication that there is anything awry with it. The hose routing is clean it comes up on duty cycle cleanly and maintains properly according to AP gauges, not sure if that means anything or not but it's unlikely that it is the culprit.

[Bobsyouruncl]

OH, I should also mention, my heads are ported, not sure if that help's spool or just the mid-range power.

 

seriously doubt that ported heads cause a 1000 rpm swing in spool. I was told these turbos aren't great and the evidence bears it out in my opinion.

[shralp]

Can't speak to the BNR 16g, but here is my JMP built 16G dyno. This is with Grimmspeed TMIC, Cobb intake, 1050 injectors, DW65c pump, stock exhaust manifolds to Perrin Mid/Y, Prodrive muffs, built motor.

16G dyno.PDF

Edited August 20, 2021 by shralp

[DaveWaters]

Here’s my dyno chart for comparison. I have just about the same build as op but use a stock inlet, ID fuel rails and aeromotive fpr. Other difference is 5eat.

 

[Bobsyouruncl]

Ya all of these seem to come on boost much earlier, with similar builds.

[Bobsyouruncl]

So my DAM dropped to .35 and the car was pulling timing like crazy. It was also running like crap on the low end before boost came on.....hesitating and what not. It happened right after it was originally tuned. I thought maybe that was normal but it kept eating at me.....I finally sent a log to my tuner and he said ya the motor looks pissed off.

 

I ended up finding a vaccum hose from the fuel pressure regulator to the Intake I had not zip tied because I never touched it in the build and didn't know it existed. It had blown off. So I fixed it and it drove like a whole new car. I actually hated driving it before. It was hard to launch it from a stop. Throttle was inconsistent and had bad rev hang and shifting was always weird.

 

So I thought maybe it had been tuned that way and the tuner said we better fix it....looks like the timing is too advanced and fueling is off. I took it back to the Dyno. He worked on it a bit and it had the same afr and same boost profile....so it seems it blew off after it was tuned but.....it made more power by quite a bit.

 

309 peak HP and like 325-330 peak torque....the spool is still garbage can crap but the car runs great, has no knock and seems to be happier

 

I'm still debating what to do about a turbo, probably gonna replace it someday sooner rather than later. I'm just not happy with the spool. I highly recommend anyone NOT buy a BNR turbo....wish I would have known before I bought of their bad reputation and went another way.

[Bobsyouruncl]

Haven't posted for a while as I've been working through some frustrating issues.

 

The car ended up developing some hesitation and was seeing knock all the time and pulling timing. It was real intermittent and hard to pin down a set of circumstances to help find a cause.

 

I had not checked the valve lash after bolting down the heads and didn't find out until later that's when it needs to be done. I was concerned that this was a contributing factor so I decided to have it checked and after stewing about it for a while ordered a blouch 380xt which was recommend to me by Dom my tuner.

 

I didn't have time to do the work myself so I had the local shop where I had my tuning done do it. They checked the lash and it was within spec but the cams had some strange wear on the tips of the lobes that, while within spec, may have indicated a problem with the head itself. It was suggested to me that they be changed and the heads sent out to a machine shop to be re inspected.

 

I opted to have them replaced as they were another question mark concerning the source of the knock problem. So the heads got sent out and they ordered Kelford B cams for the car installed those and put on the new turbo. I also had them relocate the IAT sensor to the throttle body side of the intercooler.

 

I went to the shop to watch the car get dyno'd again and while there Dom pointed out that my stock intake hose from the filter box was kinked due to the aftermarket turbo inlet tube being longer than stock. They asked if I wanted to throw a Cobb intake on to solve it so I opted for that as well. I had them put the box on it too having heard it can keep inlet temps lower.

 

They threw the car on the dyno and it had an intake leak when idling. They had to fiddle around with that and found it was in the tgv to head seal. They were running out of time as it was getting late, I needed it to drive home that night. So rather than pull it into the shop and tear it down Dom tuned the boost portion of the car and got it safe to drive home.

 

I had to take it back in to get the intake leak fixed. So I opted to get the IAG TGV deletes installed as I had done a home made job and it was another point of possible failure and running issues. I had Tier One do the work again and Dom brushed up the tune on the road.

 

I got the car back and the car ran great......for three days.......then it went to crap again.....was getting pretty frustrated with the car at this point.

 

To be perfectly clear Tier One and Dom were great. No one ever told me they were gonna magically fix the problem with money and parts, they were very honest and upfront about what things could maybe possibly do and what the problem might be but now way of knowing for sure until we try it. I completely understand and don't regret any of the work I had done nor do I hold them responsible for my choices.

 

At this point the AP starting cutting out under load while doing a pull. It would blank out and reset. So I decided to take the car back in to see if that could be fixed and asked them to drive it for a while after to test it.

 

So they did some digging and seemed that bad grounds and electrical noise could cause that and maybe was another symptom of the knock issue I had been having. So they freshened up the leads on the battery and ran a bunch of other grounds. The mechanic and Dom both drove it for quite a while and couldn't repeat the problem so it seemed solved.

 

I picked it up and on the way home on the freeway matted it in 4th, the damn AP cut out again and it threw a CEL. I pulled over and checked the code...it said boost limit exceeded. I wasn't sure why it would have done that so I cleared it and kept driving home.

 

The car ran like crap again. The acceleration was all over the place. The tac needled would like jump up then slow then jump up like it was hesitating or missing. At this point I was getting so frustrated I almost decided to just unload the thing to stop bleeding money. I just parked it for like 2-3 weeks I was so pissed.

 

So I email Dom and ask him if he will take a spin with me so I can show him what I'm talking about and he can tell me if I'm crazy, not knowing if it's normal or if I'm doing something wrong. He said he would.

 

We end up linking up at Tier One and he hops in the car with me. On the way there the DAM had dropped again and was doing weird crap. We drive around for a while and he makes some changes. I do a pull, he logs it and it's perfect. He says that the car should have driven smooth as glass but it was lurching and not smooth at all. So knowing I'm not crazy and there's something not tune related to the car we head back. He has me park and makes a change, then he notices that the front O2 sensor doesn't warm up for a long time after the change despite already being warm. He says, "that's weird." We get back to the shop and he makes another change and I restart the car....it starts misfiring on a cylinder. He goes, "huh we may be seeing a sign of the problem." So the knock and timing issue feels a lot like a misfire or weak spark. He asks me how old the coils and O2 sensor are. They looked like OE so I say that and he says that he generally changed them out at 125000 miles. I ask about suggestions for next steps and he says he would try coils and that O2 sensor since it was acting out of character. I thank him and head out.

 

They suggested that I contact Cobb support about the AP in case it was faulty so I sent it off to Cobb to get checked out.

 

Fast forward a couple weeks, I get time to change the parts out (side note: I was nervous to try and change the coils as I've heard it's a pain ..... It was really easy, I truly don't understand why people complain about it). I change the parts, take the car out and.......runs like a dream. Not a single hitch smooth as butter. I really don't want to hope at this point but I think the problem is solved. It makes sense as when they pulled the heads there seemed to be a lot of carbon on the Pistons despite the motor only being about 5k miles old. Dom had said it was acting like it had a weak spark when he was tuning it once and he has seen AP's reset when using certain plugs ,ie an ignition related problem.

 

The AP is at Cobb so I can't test it out but I think that if I had it it would work fine now.

 

Now I'm waiting to get the AP back and do a few logs to send to Dom to see if it needs to be returned or not.

 

Part of why I'm relating this is to toot Dom's horn....this guy went way out of his way to help me out and spent a lot of time emailing, communicating, and tuning my car to try and work out the issue. He cut me a lot of slack on cost of his services and I'm pretty gratefull for his help. So if you ever need a tune around this neck of the woods he's a good guy to go to. Getadomtune.com is his website.

 

I'll post a pic of the dyno graph when it first got the 380xt but had the intake leak. It spools a couple hundred faster than the 16g and made 352hp 381tq. It boosts to about 23lbs and carries out to redline at about 20.5lbs. The car is pretty wild and I'm pretty happy with the turbo.

 

It's got stock catback exhaust. One day I'd like to put a new catback on it but I don't want a lot of noise. I'd like to go up to 3" for flow and some better spool but don't want a loud annoying car. If anyone made it to the end of this post and has an idea of a good cat back setup that's not a whole lot louder than stock and flows better let me know.

[Pleides]

Haven't posted for a while as I've been working through some frustrating issues.

 

The car ended up developing some hesitation and was seeing knock all the time and pulling timing. It was real intermittent and hard to pin down a set of circumstances to help find a cause.

 

I had not checked the valve lash after bolting down the heads and didn't find out until later that's when it needs to be done. I was concerned that this was a contributing factor so I decided to have it checked and after stewing about it for a while ordered a blouch 380xt which was recommend to me by Dom my tuner.

 

I didn't have time to do the work myself so I had the local shop where I had my tuning done do it. They checked the lash and it was within spec but the cams had some strange wear on the tips of the lobes that, while within spec, may have indicated a problem with the head itself. It was suggested to me that they be changed and the heads sent out to a machine shop to be re inspected.

 

I opted to have them replaced as they were another question mark concerning the source of the knock problem. So the heads got sent out and they ordered Kelford B cams for the car installed those and put on the new turbo. I also had them relocate the IAT sensor to the throttle body side of the intercooler.

 

I went to the shop to watch the car get dyno'd again and while there Dom pointed out that my stock intake hose from the filter box was kinked due to the aftermarket turbo inlet tube being longer than stock. They asked if I wanted to throw a Cobb intake on to solve it so I opted for that as well. I had them put the box on it too having heard it can keep inlet temps lower.

 

They threw the car on the dyno and it had an intake leak when idling. They had to fiddle around with that and found it was in the tgv to head seal. They were running out of time as it was getting late, I needed it to drive home that night. So rather than pull it into the shop and tear it down Dom tuned the boost portion of the car and got it safe to drive home.

 

I had to take it back in to get the intake leak fixed. So I opted to get the IAG TGV deletes installed as I had done a home made job and it was another point of possible failure and running issues. I had Tier One do the work again and Dom brushed up the tune on the road.

 

I got the car back and the car ran great......for three days.......then it went to crap again.....was getting pretty frustrated with the car at this point.

 

To be perfectly clear Tier One and Dom were great. No one ever told me they were gonna magically fix the problem with money and parts, they were very honest and upfront about what things could maybe possibly do and what the problem might be but now way of knowing for sure until we try it. I completely understand and don't regret any of the work I had done nor do I hold them responsible for my choices.

 

At this point the AP starting cutting out under load while doing a pull. It would blank out and reset. So I decided to take the car back in to see if that could be fixed and asked them to drive it for a while after to test it.

 

So they did some digging and seemed that bad grounds and electrical noise could cause that and maybe was another symptom of the knock issue I had been having. So they freshened up the leads on the battery and ran a bunch of other grounds. The mechanic and Dom both drove it for quite a while and couldn't repeat the problem so it seemed solved.

 

I picked it up and on the way home on the freeway matted it in 4th, the damn AP cut out again and it threw a CEL. I pulled over and checked the code...it said boost limit exceeded. I wasn't sure why it would have done that so I cleared it and kept driving home.

 

The car ran like crap again. The acceleration was all over the place. The tac needled would like jump up then slow then jump up like it was hesitating or missing. At this point I was getting so frustrated I almost decided to just unload the thing to stop bleeding money. I just parked it for like 2-3 weeks I was so pissed.

 

So I email Dom and ask him if he will take a spin with me so I can show him what I'm talking about and he can tell me if I'm crazy, not knowing if it's normal or if I'm doing something wrong. He said he would.

 

We end up linking up at Tier One and he hops in the car with me. On the way there the DAM had dropped again and was doing weird crap. We drive around for a while and he makes some changes. I do a pull, he logs it and it's perfect. He says that the car should have driven smooth as glass but it was lurching and not smooth at all. So knowing I'm not crazy and there's something not tune related to the car we head back. He has me park and makes a change, then he notices that the front O2 sensor doesn't warm up for a long time after the change despite already being warm. He says, "that's weird." We get back to the shop and he makes another change and I restart the car....it starts misfiring on a cylinder. He goes, "huh we may be seeing a sign of the problem." So the knock and timing issue feels a lot like a misfire or weak spark. He asks me how old the coils and O2 sensor are. They looked like OE so I say that and he says that he generally changed them out at 125000 miles. I ask about suggestions for next steps and he says he would try coils and that O2 sensor since it was acting out of character. I thank him and head out.

 

They suggested that I contact Cobb support about the AP in case it was faulty so I sent it off to Cobb to get checked out.

 

Fast forward a couple weeks, I get time to change the parts out (side note: I was nervous to try and change the coils as I've heard it's a pain ..... It was really easy, I truly don't understand why people complain about it). I change the parts, take the car out and.......runs like a dream. Not a single hitch smooth as butter. I really don't want to hope at this point but I think the problem is solved. It makes sense as when they pulled the heads there seemed to be a lot of carbon on the Pistons despite the motor only being about 5k miles old. Dom had said it was acting like it had a weak spark when he was tuning it once and he has seen AP's reset when using certain plugs ,ie an ignition related problem.

 

The AP is at Cobb so I can't test it out but I think that if I had it it would work fine now.

 

Now I'm waiting to get the AP back and do a few logs to send to Dom to see if it needs to be returned or not.

 

Part of why I'm relating this is to toot Dom's horn....this guy went way out of his way to help me out and spent a lot of time emailing, communicating, and tuning my car to try and work out the issue. He cut me a lot of slack on cost of his services and I'm pretty gratefull for his help. So if you ever need a tune around this neck of the woods he's a good guy to go to. Getadomtune.com is his website.

 

I'll post a pic of the dyno graph when it first got the 380xt but had the intake leak. It spools a couple hundred faster than the 16g and made 352hp 381tq. It boosts to about 23lbs and carries out to redline at about 20.5lbs. The car is pretty wild and I'm pretty happy with the turbo.

 

It's got stock catback exhaust. One day I'd like to put a new catback on it but I don't want a lot of noise. I'd like to go up to 3" for flow and some better spool but don't want a loud annoying car. If anyone made it to the end of this post and has an idea of a good cat back setup that's not a whole lot louder than stock and flows better let me know.

 

Glad to hear your problems seem by and large fixed.

 

I have a Borla catback exhaust and really like it. If you have a wagon, keep in mind the tips will sit a bit recessed which I've heard can cause a bit more noise since they don't clear the bumper completely. Here's a video of my car on the dyno with it. It's definitely not super loud. If you have an aftermarket trans mount (mine is Group N) then you'll notice a bit more exhaust noise in the cabin.

[Bobsyouruncl]

That actually sounds good, I like the tone. Is it droney on the highway?

 

Here is that dyno plot... bad pic but it was all I could grab in a hurry that night to get out as they went past close to finish the car.

 

I think this was the boost and AFR. The boost curve has changed since then to more like what I described in the post but you can see the max HP number was 351.7. If I get it back on the dyno I'll post better graphs.

[Pleides]

That actually sounds good, I like the tone. Is it droney on the highway?

 

Here is that dyno plot... bad pic but it was all I could grab in a hurry that night to get out as they went past close to finish the car.

 

I think this was the boost and AFR. The boost curve has changed since then to more like what I described in the post but you can see the max HP number was 351.7. If I get it back on the dyno I'll post better graphs.

 

It is a bit droney with an aftermarket downpipe, but all exhausts will do that with an opened up downpipe. You can add another resonator to help eliminate drone if you like. But the mufflers definitely stifle sound more than other mufflers for this car, so I’d still say the car is comfortably quiet/loud. If you extended the exhaust tips out to make sure they actually went through the cutouts in the bumper then they would be quieter. They’re definitely fit for a sedan. They bolt up without issue but you’re gonna notice that they don’t look as good as the OEM mufflers.

 

Edit: I just realized you're in Spokane. If you're ever in PDX just let me know and you can come by and listen to my car.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Pleides

[Bobsyouruncl]

The saga continues.....

 

I ended up getting the AP back and Cobb said everything is fine with it no problems could be repeated on their end. So I go to log some pulls and the AP resets like it was doing before......sweet......I do another pull, it overboosts and throws a code but the AP doesn't reset. I clear the code and do another pull, over boost no AP reset. So could the AP reset and the overboost condition be related and they happened started around the same time?

 

So the theory is that the coils being weak mostly and sometimes working causes the boost control to be too robust when they do work and makes it overboost occasionally and somehow reset the AP. So when they were fixed it overboosted all the time and instead of kissing the limit or whatever it went full tilt. I sent the logs to Dom and he said, "stop boosting the car, the boost is really high and it's running lean." So off to the dyno again.

 

So I get to the dyno appt and he starts tuning the car. I told him it has a periodic tip in knock but everything else was fine. So he tried to tune out the tip in knock but the throttle control was weird and he thought it was acting like it had a bad MAF. He gets it mostly tuned but stops as he needs a new MAF to test his theory. They didn't have one in stock for an lgt so I told them to order one and I'll just toss it in. I drove away and the car ran like crap in vacuum, stuttering and surging and all around terrible.

 

So I get the new MAF and toss it in. The preboost portion starts cleaning up as it learns a new fuel trim but trying to log a pull the boost is all over the place surging like crazy. So I send logs to Dom.......back to the dyno again.

 

I went to the dyno last night. Dom puts the whole tune back to stock and starts brand new. With all the information on how the car behaves and issues it's been having he addresses each one and seems to be able to get them all ironed out. At one point he did a pull and it hit 366hp but threw a code and apparently unexpectedly had maxed out the MAF at 5 volts. The boost was table top flat all the way to redline with about a 1-1.5lb drop at around 5-5500k rpm then flat out to 6800. Unfortunately he had to turn the boost down at the high end because I ran out of MAF. The boost comes on quicker and holds solid to redline. One day I may put a new MAF on to wring out a few more ponies but it's pretty good for now. It ended up at 356hp scaled back. I noticed too that with the new coils and MAF the max boost pressure is down like 4 lbs but it makes more power. So it flows more with a better burn and higher exhaust pressure?

 

It still has an occasional tip in knock that no one actually believes is real knock. At one point he was watching monitors on the knock sensor and it was just flicking between 50 and 150 sitting at idle with no throttle input. If anyone knows what might cause this or why a knock sensor in LGT seems to throw false knock a lot, feel free to say something. My car seems to have a problem with false knock. I've changed the sensor as the old one failed and that has cleaned the problem up a lot but it still is an issue that I'd like to get solved. It seems electrical.

 

I drove the car home and it ran better than ever.. no knock or issues. We'll see how it does going forward but I'm hopeful. It's been almost a year since I bought it and it's been one problem after the other. So it would be nice to just enjoy it.

 

Moral of the story is....if you buy an LGT with 150k miles....change your coils and sensors if you have any problems at all ...would have saved maybe 4 Dyno trips and a lot of headache.

 

It's a long video but he streamed the tune if you're interested. It's pretty informative.

that's the link.

 

On this pic the top line is TQ and the bottom is the boost curve with the taper put into the tail end to accommodate the MAF overrun.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Bobsyouruncl

[Bobsyouruncl]

This is the HP and TQ curves.

[Max Capacity]

For that knock, check your heatshields on the exhaust, make sure they are all tight and not rattling around.

 

Nice #'s from the dyno, I'd stay at that HP, that's more than enough for these cars.