Legacy GT Sedan Vs Wagon... What are the differences?

[BookemDano]

... that is, besides the obvious. :) Today I drove a legacy GT 5EAT Sedan and Wagon. I felt some differences with the way they rode and handled. But I'm trying to quantify them. For those who have driven both, what do you think about ride, handling, noise, steering, etc? Thanks and regards, Dan.

[brady_bunch]

Having driven both, the wagon seemed just slightly more "top heavy" going around corners. It also seemed slightly noisier with the added room in the rear so close to the exhaust. It could have been my imagination on both. If my wife ever decides she wants a sedan again (she's driving a van now), I might opt for the wagon.

[gtguy]

The open cargo bay on the wagon will allow a bit more noise through. There's a 50-lb weight difference, and it's over the back of the car. This allows the wagon to turn in better. Same was true of the WRX wagon. Aside from that, there isn't too much difference, dynamically between the two cars, which is nice. Kevin

[Ken S]

I also tested a sedan and wagon back-to-back before my purchase and really couldn't tell the two apart. Some people who attended the dealer Ride and Drive that got to try both on a closed track also felt the same. The only real notable difference is as gtguy mentioned, some cabin noise -- typical of wagons. Ken

[TeeLoo]

The wagon does look nicer and sportier... :wink: Seriously, I've driven both, I couldn't really tell the difference except I needed the extra cargo space the wagon offers.

[BookemDano]

I wanted to wait and get other replies before I threw out my opinion. Yesterday, I drove both - Legacy GT Limited - in Sedan and Wagon. While I have some (minor) concerns about the amenities, I think they are both GREAT cars. Several years ago, I drove a BMW 328i (one generation back). It was expensive, difficult to get, had several limitations, but it was THE best driving car I've ever tried. From 60 to 90 mph, it didn't make any difference in the drive feel. You could drive at almost any speed and it just felt ROCK SOLID!. Well, now there are two (or three it you count the Legacy GT Sedan and Wagon separately). The Legacy GT has the BEST feeling outside of a BMW. I was simply blown away at how ROCK SOLID they felt. Absolutely amazing. And for about $10-15,000 less than a BMW. I felt the sedan was just a hair better than the wagon. And that's because I was paying close attention. The wagon is two inches higher and longer than the sedan, and weighs about 65 lbs more. So I think it gets just a tiny bit more body movement and is slightest bit less "snappy" in handling. And, I thought the wagon was just a tad noisier. But both cars are extremely quiet. You have to look REAL closely to see the differences. And it could easily have been the tire pressure or some ideosyncrasy of the indvidual cars. Frankly, I like the utility of the wagon, but I love the looks of the sedan. The sedan is smaller (bad), doesn't have a fold down seat (bad), and has less storage space(bad). But it is one great looking car. (Who cares about the bad!?!) I'm at the 90% level of pulling the trigger on a Legacy GT Limited Sedan. I should hit 100% by next week. Regards, Dan.

[SUBE555]

Nice comparo. I knew I was after a Wagon for a few reasons. More cargo space (how fun is it to get that extra set of wheels/tires in a sedan with a rear seat that doesn't fold down?) Rear headroom for passengers. Sleeper presence; I'm not sure too many people even see my car, it seems to blend right into the scenery. Insurance, it's not sporty to them, therefore it costs less. :D Sure it might have a little more road noise because of the open back area, okay, sure it might have a little more weight up top, but will that make that big of a difference to me? Nope! I love my wagon!

[Wa-gone]

I just bought a new wagon three days ago. I must admit I didn't compare the wagon and sedan as much as I should have. I'm happy (relieved) to hear that others who did say they aren't much different in terms of the way they drive. The big seller for me was the double moonroof. It blew me away as such an enjoyable and unique feature to add to the utility. When someone reacts to a wagon with a genuine "WOW" as the guy I carpool with did this morning (he drives a Volvo C70 Coupe), you know it works.

[Dr. Zevil]

The differences are that you can't load a sedan up with gear, head north.. and live out of the back of your car for a week. I love my wagon! Just got through break-in this weekend.. IT'S VERY FAST!

[Nick]

[quote name='gtguy']The open cargo bay on the wagon will allow a bit more noise through. There's a 50-lb weight difference, and it's over the back of the car. This allows the wagon to turn in better. Same was true of the WRX wagon. Aside from that, there isn't too much difference, dynamically between the two cars, which is nice. Kevin[/quote] Adding weight does *not* improve turn-in. Perhaps the wagons have different suspension calibrations that improve turn in, but any perceived or actual improvement in turn-in (or any cornering dynamic, for that matter) it is not because they weigh more. -Nick

[rao]

Sedans are FASTER :lol:

[Dr. Zevil]

[quote name='Nick'][quote name='gtguy']The open cargo bay on the wagon will allow a bit more noise through. There's a 50-lb weight difference, and it's over the back of the car. This allows the wagon to turn in better. Same was true of the WRX wagon. Aside from that, there isn't too much difference, dynamically between the two cars, which is nice. Kevin[/quote] Adding weight does *not* improve turn-in. Perhaps the wagons have different suspension calibrations that improve turn in, but any perceived or actual improvement in turn-in (or any cornering dynamic, for that matter) it is not because they weigh more. -Nick[/quote] Placement of weight will always help handling. This assumes that you are talking about cars that are roughly equal in dynamics.

[Nick]

[quote name='Dr. Zevil'][quote name='Nick'][quote name='gtguy']The open cargo bay on the wagon will allow a bit more noise through. There's a 50-lb weight difference, and it's over the back of the car. This allows the wagon to turn in better. Same was true of the WRX wagon. Aside from that, there isn't too much difference, dynamically between the two cars, which is nice. Kevin[/quote] Adding weight does *not* improve turn-in. Perhaps the wagons have different suspension calibrations that improve turn in, but any perceived or actual improvement in turn-in (or any cornering dynamic, for that matter) it is not because they weigh more. -Nick[/quote] Placement of weight will always help handling. This assumes that you are talking about cars that are roughly equal in dynamics.[/quote] Placement of weight, yes. But adding weight will never help handling except in the most extreme cases, especially when you are adding it high up on the end of the car, as on the wagon. -Nick

[Dr. Zevil]

Also remember that the wagon tailgate is made of aluminum. What Kevin is saying that the added weight toward the back of the wagon is helping to aleviate understeer. What he didn't say is that the wagon handles better than the sedan, the difference is neglidgable. The point I think he was trying to make is that you don't have to sacrafice handling and pure driving pleasure if you want to get a wagon. Personally, my GT wagon is more fun to drive than my WRX sedan with Eibach springs. There is more body roll, but the thing just sticks.

[gtguy]

[quote name='Nick'][quote name='gtguy']The open cargo bay on the wagon will allow a bit more noise through. There's a 50-lb weight difference, and it's over the back of the car. This allows the wagon to turn in better. Same was true of the WRX wagon. Aside from that, there isn't too much difference, dynamically between the two cars, which is nice. Kevin[/quote] Adding weight does *not* improve turn-in. Perhaps the wagons have different suspension calibrations that improve turn in, but any perceived or actual improvement in turn-in (or any cornering dynamic, for that matter) it is not because they weigh more. -Nick[/quote] Whoa, careful there... It isn't the weight that helps turn-in. As with the WRX wagon, it's the placement of the weight, namely over the butt. Thanks, Dr. Z for clarifying things. Ask 911 owners what weight over the butt does to make a car's back end happier. The wagon isn't really all that high, and the way the back end slopes down further negates the weight placement penalty. Early in the life of the WRX, wagon test-drives, back when testers had a similar setup to the sedan, with size-matched rear swaybars, wagons were spinning where sedans weren't. Why? Extra weight over the butt. A smaller swaybar fixed that (though Subaru later put smaller rear sways on the sedan as well, a retroactive change to negate the effects of hamhanded drivers). I drove a wagon and sedan with the exact same suspension setup: size-matched front and rear bars, SPT suspension kits and STi pink links at the rear of the car. The wagon turned in significantly better than the sedan, and was more willing to oversteer if you screwed up. Extra weight in and of itself doesn't improve handling, you are correct. If that were the case, Hummers would win autocrosses. :lol: But if that weight is in a good spot and it isn't significant enough to negate performance, that extra weight can indeed help turn-in. Don't forget that the wagon and sedan are fundamentally the same, except for minor overall body length differences, and the greenhouse over the rear, which is where the extra weight comes from. But the wagon is 50+ lbs closer to the ideal 50/50 weight balance than the sedan. Wagon and sedan aren't like the WRX, with track differences and suspension tuning differences, though the WRX wagon got longer, stiffer rear springs than the sedan, something else exacerbating its initial tail-happiness. GT wagon and sedan are fundamentally the same, though I wouldn't be surprised if the wagon's rear springs were, similar to the WRX, longer and a bit firmer so that load-carrying didn't upset the car too much. Kevin

[Nick]

I'm not doubting that the wagon has better turn-in than the sedan because I havbe never driven the wagon. But if you put 50 lbs in the trunk of the sedan it is not going to turn in better. It just isn't. The change in weight distribution may make it more neutral at the limit, but that limit will be lower. It's just physics. Now in the wagon, the weight is carried higher (due to the large sunroof) and farther rearward (due to the farther rear placement of the rear window, and extra weight of the high roof over the luggage compartment). Placing weight higher and father rear increases both the center of gravity and the polar moment of inertia, both of which hamper handling. Yes, the weight distribution is closer to 50/50 and that may make the car more neutral, but it is offset by the fact that you have 50 extra lbs above the CG to haul around the corner. I would assert that if the wagon handles better than the sedan it is because the wagon has different springs and/or shocks and/or sway bars and/or suspension geometry and/or alignment. Do you know for a fact that it doesn't? -Nick

[Drift Monkey]

What Nick is trying to say is the adding weight can never be beneficial to a car's handling. The transfer of weight from the front to the rear is another story (weight split).

[gtguy]

[quote name='Nick']I'm not doubting that the wagon has better turn-in than the sedan because I havbe never driven the wagon. But if you put 50 lbs in the trunk of the sedan it is not going to turn in better. It just isn't. The change in weight distribution may make it more neutral at the limit, but that limit will be lower. It's just physics. Now in the wagon, the weight is carried higher (due to the large sunroof) and farther rearward (due to the farther rear placement of the rear window, and extra weight of the high roof over the luggage compartment). Placing weight higher and father rear increases both the center of gravity and the polar moment of inertia, both of which hamper handling. Yes, the weight distribution is closer to 50/50 and that may make the car more neutral, but it is offset by the fact that you have 50 extra lbs above the CG to haul around the corner. I would assert that if the wagon handles better than the sedan it is because the wagon has different springs and/or shocks and/or sway bars and/or suspension geometry and/or alignment. Do you know for a fact that it doesn't? -Nick[/quote] If you put 50 lbs in the trunk of the sedan, centered, I bet you that it would turn in better. It's a primitive "weight jacker" that they use on open-wheel racing cars, in search of a balance and weight distribution that is closer to ideal. It's closer to balanced. Don't know for fact, as Subaru isn't saying, but I would bet that the only suspension difference (if that) between wagon and sedan are, like the WRX, where the weight difference was greater, rear springs. Different dampers aren't really required. If you look at the manual, the wagon and sedan alignment settings are almost identical, and who knows what happens to the settings during shipping, etc.? Sway bar sizes are the same on both wagon and sedan. Would a longer, stiffer rear spring help a car turn in better? Yep. As spring rates move toward equality, understeer decreases. So it could well be that the wagon and sedan have different spring rates at the rear. Think about the weight distribution thing this way: A balanced pole mounted on a pivot will spin more easily than a non-balanced pole. Irrespective of where the weight is, the wagon is closer to a balanced pole than the sedan. Mid-engine cars seek a balance that is 50/50, which helps not only with stability, but willingness to turn and all other handling aspects. The wagon's improved turn-in isn't dramatic, but it is noticeable. Drive one and find out. But as with the WRX, sedan folks said "No way," until they drove a wagon. And in the case of the WRX, wagon and sedan stock alignments were, IIRC, identical, particularly the -1.3 camber settings at the rear. I didn't take into account sunroofs. The ones that I drove didn't have sunroofs, which I think are silly. Now, having done this semantic dance, HOWEVER it happens, a difference between the wagon and sedan, pursuant to the original question, is that the wagon turns in better. The sedan is also less attractive, but that is subjective. Kevin

[gtguy]

[quote name='Drift Monkey']What Nick is trying to say is the adding weight can never be beneficial to a car's handling. The transfer of weight from the front to the rear is another story (weight split).[/quote] We agree that adding weight can't in and of itself be beneficial to a car's handling, hence my Hummer...autocross quip in a previous post. This is squarely in the "duh" category. Kevin

[Drift Monkey]

Just wanted to rub it in. :D

[Driver72]

The fact the Wagon has a bit more weight over the rear will make it's weight distribution a bit better. however, since most of that weight is high up because of the windows, and roof, it will cancel out the weight distribution advantage. The fact also remains the wagon weighs 55-70 pounds more depending on whether you get the limited or standard model. Weight, any weight affects performance. 55 to 70 pounds isn't that much, but it adds up. Also, the wagon is less aerodynamic. The sedan has a coefficient of drag of .29 the wagon is .31 This will also affect high speed accleration. It will also add to wind noise. The less aerodynamic a car is the more wind it is pushing and hence more noise. Though both will reach their governed top speed of 130 mph, the wagon won't be as fast. The weight and the less aerodynamic facts will add up to slower times and more power used to push the car down the road. This will also affect gas mileage to a degree. The faster you go the more it will be affected. If performance is of most concern to you, don't get the wagon. If versatility is most important to you, obviously the wagon is the way to go. SOA rates the 0-60 if the wagon .1 second slower than the sedan. But again, it's at speeds above that where the differences will come more into play.

[gtguy]

[quote name='Driver72']The fact the Wagon has a bit more weight over the rear will make it's weight distribution a bit better. however, since most of that weight is high up because of the windows, and roof, it will cancel out the weight distribution advantage. The fact also remains the wagon weighs 55-70 pounds more depending on whether you get the limited or standard model. Weight, any weight affects performance. 55 to 70 pounds isn't that much, but it adds up. Also, the wagon is less aerodynamic. The sedan has a coefficient of drag of .29 the wagon is .31 This will also affect high speed accleration. It will also add to wind noise. The less aerodynamic a car is the more wind it is pushing and hence more noise. Though both will reach their governed top speed of 130 mph, the wagon won't be as fast. The weight and the less aerodynamic facts will add up to slower times and more power used to push the car down the road. This will also affect gas mileage to a degree. The faster you go the more it will be affected. If performance is of most concern to you, don't get the wagon. If versatility is most important to you, obviously the wagon is the way to go. SOA rates the 0-60 if the wagon .1 second slower than the sedan. But again, it's at speeds above that where the differences will come more into play.[/quote] Oh, no! I like performance, but I got a wagon! I screwed up bad. :lol: Just drive both sedan then wagon, same speed and manner, same road, same curves, and you'll understand what I mean about the turn-in performance. A similar debate went on with the WRX wagon vs. sedan, then people drove both back to back, and lots of them bought a wagon. Kevin

[MtnSub]

Hey gtguy, I thought I was the only one that did not like putting a big hole in the roof of a car designed for stiffness and then filling the hole with lots of added weight. Because Suby has not made the sunroof optional on Ltd, I am considering buying the std Leg GT and putting S4 quality, leather/cooled (I live in CA) sport seats in the Leg GT. I will still save money, have a lighter car, maybe stiffer, but I give up the airbbag and that is the catch.

[Driver72]

[quote name='gtguy'][quote name='Driver72']The fact the Wagon has a bit more weight over the rear will make it's weight distribution a bit better. however, since most of that weight is high up because of the windows, and roof, it will cancel out the weight distribution advantage. The fact also remains the wagon weighs 55-70 pounds more depending on whether you get the limited or standard model. Weight, any weight affects performance. 55 to 70 pounds isn't that much, but it adds up. Also, the wagon is less aerodynamic. The sedan has a coefficient of drag of .29 the wagon is .31 This will also affect high speed accleration. It will also add to wind noise. The less aerodynamic a car is the more wind it is pushing and hence more noise. Though both will reach their governed top speed of 130 mph, the wagon won't be as fast. The weight and the less aerodynamic facts will add up to slower times and more power used to push the car down the road. This will also affect gas mileage to a degree. The faster you go the more it will be affected. If performance is of most concern to you, don't get the wagon. If versatility is most important to you, obviously the wagon is the way to go. SOA rates the 0-60 if the wagon .1 second slower than the sedan. But again, it's at speeds above that where the differences will come more into play.[/quote] Oh, no! I like performance, but I got a wagon! I screwed up bad. :lol: Just drive both sedan then wagon, same speed and manner, same road, same curves, and you'll understand what I mean about the turn-in performance. A similar debate went on with the WRX wagon vs. sedan, then people drove both back to back, and lots of them bought a wagon. Kevin[/quote] Kevin, I don't doubt for some the wagon will work better for them. I also don't doubt MOST people would not notice the difference in performance the extra weight of the wagon causes. But the facts are the facts. The wagon has more glass on the roof, more roof metal and material, and more glass on the rear back window. This adds the 55-70 pounds in weight. Obviously that extra (second) sunroof on the limited adds the extra 15 pounds. But the fact remains, the added weight, as well as the reduced aerodynamics reduces performance. If 55-70 pounds didn't mean anything on performance, people wouldn't remove their spare tires and go to the track with less than 1/4 tank of gas either. Obviously, anyone getting a Legacy GT is not interested in all out performance anyway...that's what the STI is for. But, weight is still the enemy of performance, and weight on the roof is the worst kind, especially in regards to handling. I ordered the LGT Sedan, and got the limited. It's 65 pounds heavier than the standard GT, but having the power leather seats was worth it to me. Also finding out the residual value (resale value) is higher on the Limited models, only made sense to get it. Lease payments therefore work out to be about the same. Luckily, of that 65 pounds the limited adds on the sedan, it's only about 30-35 pounds on the roof, and it's pretty much in the dead center of the car, so it's negative effects won't be quite as great as it would by placing that weight over the rear, and especially front of the car.. I wanted to be able to order the Limited WITHOUT the sunroof, but couldn't. That would of been ideal.

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

My intial test drive was with the GT sedan and it handled great the wagon may have a little more push in corner just becuase the higher center of gravity but lowering the car a little and firming it up will make it handle just as well. Both cars handle well enough though that it wasn't a big deal to me, I got the car so I could hold surfboards in it and I didn't want anything slower then the other car so the wagon was the only option.