HPDE / Lapping - thoughts on my 2.5i (vs buying 3.6r or WRX)

[olympic1]

I currently own a 2016 Legacy 2.5i that is used as a DD (well with the pandemic it's mostly sitting at home). Anyhow, I have a teenage son and we are interested in doing a HPDE or two and perhaps some open lapping days if we enjoy it. I don't have the best track car for this right now.

 

What I like about the Legacy is it has enough room front and back that we can ride in it comfortably. We live in northern climate where we have snow regularly from Nov - Mar so really like the AWD. The car has eyesight and I like the added safety (especially with teens) and the adaptive cruise.

 

Here are the options I'm running around in my head (my family is tired of hearing my turmoil so now it's your turn):

 

1) Sell the 2.5i and purchase a used sixth gen 3.6r.

PROS:

- better performance than 2.5i

- winter wheels/tires will fit

- roof racks will fit

- all of the features we like and have today

CONS:

- cost some money to make the switch

- legacy still not a "performance" car so would need some minor mods

- not a lot of mods available for the 3.6r

 

2) Sell the 2.5i and purchase a used WRX w/CVT

PROS:

- a performance oriented car

- with CVT version can get eyesight/adaptive cruise

CONS:

- cost some money to make the switch

- insurance cost higher but surprisingly not a lot (~$160/yr additional)

- smaller car

- would be a CVT version to obtain eyesight and would probably never hear the end of owning a CVT version of WRX

 

3) Keep the 2.5i and try to modify it to better perform at the track

PROS:

- save money by not purchasing another car

- insurance a little cheaper

- could apply savings to upgrades

CONS:

- it's not a performance car (not sure if it will have the fun factor)

- not much for mods available

 

I am fine spending some money for any of these options. I only anticipate at most a handful of events each year.

 

The bottom line is whether the 2.5i can ever be decent enough for HPDE / open lapping days to enjoy and learn without constantly pointing everyone by. If I make the change to 3.6r will it be enough for HPDE / lapping days or do I need to move to the WRX?

 

Of course could always look at buying a dedicated track car. I want something that I can drive to the track and back so I don't have to purchase a trailer etc. That also means insuring and maintaining another vehicle. I also value safety on the track and if I tried to buy a $5k - $7k track car that can act as double duty I am not sure that I can find something that would be reliable, safe, etc.

 

One other wildcard - might want to take it to the dragstrip couple times a year just for the experience.

 

Okay, have at it. I welcome your opinions and thoughts. Thanks!

[Eugene Onegin]

IMO option #3 ,the 3.6 is not a hot rod .

[Opie]

Option #3

 

Getting into the HPDE hobby should be done in your current car. Just be sure the brakes and tires are better than 50%

 

Your first few events will be learning lots of things that modifications or upgrades will diminish. Learn the lines, braking and acceleration zones and get confident in a stock car, then transition with small mods at a time. Don't add another mod until you've learned to get the most out of the previous one.

 

And be warned...track days are a rabbit hole...but they are oh so fun.

[olympic1]

Option #3

 

Getting into the HPDE hobby should be done in your current car. Just be sure the brakes and tires are better than 50%

 

Your first few events will be learning lots of things that modifications or upgrades will diminish. Learn the lines, braking and acceleration zones and get confident in a stock car, then transition with small mods at a time. Don't add another mod until you've learned to get the most out of the previous one.

 

And be warned...track days are a rabbit hole...but they are oh so fun.

Thanks Opie for your thoughts!

[Febreze Mee]

Option #3

 

Olympic1, I will be getting into HPDE soon as well and intend on starting with my 2.5i Outback.

 

I won't be starting where I should with a bone stock car as Opie suggests. However, you should absolutely take your car out and learn from the bottom up. How exciting!

[DougKelly20]

I won't tell you what to do as I think all 3 options are viable. I will tell you that I currently own a modified 3.6R and have had 2 current Gen cvt wrxs (both my gfs).

 

The 2020 Wrx has slightly more comfortable suspension than the 2015 we had, plus eyesight (comes with the cvt upgrade). This will require ZERO mods to feel confident on the track.

 

I also drove an unmodified 2.5i as a loaner while the 2015 WRX was getting overhauled during what turned out to be a jammed TGV and it reminded me why I modified the 2019 3.6R I own. It had a ton of body roll and was not conducive to aggressive driving.

 

If you like modding and can teach things to your kids with it the 3.6R will give you a little to moderately more power, but also additional weight.

 

I can see why others have recommended #3 especially because you're just starting out and it's the cheapest option, but it's hard for me because I really love my 3.6r with all the upgrades I've done, and my gfs 2020 Wrx, while the most expensive option is A. Plug and play, and B. The best tool of the 3 for the track.

 

If you have specific questions about my mods our our experiences I'd be happy to answer.

[boxkita]

before making any decisions, start here (curated by a Legacy owner/autox-er): https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/amateur-motorsports-and-you-can-get-involved-you-legacy-199487.html

 

I'm currently driving a 2020 outback while the 2018 wrx is in the shop. As a hpde vehicle it's not alot of fun as the tires & suspension aren't made for aggressive driving. The cvt does a bit of hunting when powering on at the apex. Granted, this is on the street, but its a section I've used for the last 20 years to check my vehicles.

 

If the 2.5i is yer only car, upgrading to make it more fun on the track will get expensive very fast. Brake pads, bleeding the brakes, oil changes, and increased tire wear will add up fast. With 2 drivers on the day, you'll be getting more wear as well.

 

Is it fun, yes. Is it addictive. yes. Will you wish you had invested in a cheaper to drive car, yes. Every single Legacy/Outback owner who went to the track and kept going back, said the same thing.

 

If you have money to spare, a race-prepped miata (with a log book for SM). not a drift miata. pretty nothing you can buy on craigslist. Look on racingjunk.com or similar sites. If it doesn't have a log book, its not legit.

 

Also buying a legit race car means you can do chumpcar/champcar, luckydog, scca, conference (pnw), nasa, and any car club's hpde.

 

I spent more in one season driving/improving my wagon, than I spent in 3 years racing a spec miata. ymmv

[olympic1]

I can see why others have recommended #3 especially because you're just starting out and it's the cheapest option, but it's hard for me because I really love my 3.6r with all the upgrades I've done, and my gfs 2020 Wrx, while the most expensive option is A. Plug and play, and B. The best tool of the 3 for the track.

 

If you have specific questions about my mods our our experiences I'd be happy to answer.

Hey Doug I would be interested in hearing about your 3.6r mods and your experiences. The 3.6r would add more power but as you mentioned more weight. The advantage is that all of my legacy items would transfer over.

[olympic1]

before making any decisions, start here (curated by a Legacy owner/autox-er): https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/amateur-motorsports-and-you-can-get-involved-you-legacy-199487.html

 

If the 2.5i is yer only car, upgrading to make it more fun on the track will get expensive very fast. Brake pads, bleeding the brakes, oil changes, and increased tire wear will add up fast. With 2 drivers on the day, you'll be getting more wear as well.

 

Is it fun, yes. Is it addictive. yes. Will you wish you had invested in a cheaper to drive car, yes. Every single Legacy/Outback owner who went to the track and kept going back, said the same thing.

 

If you have money to spare, a race-prepped miata (with a log book for SM).

I'll check out the link and I appreciate your thoughts, thanks. Yeah the legacy will do much better than my Ford Truck on the road course so it's my best option right now. Leaning towards new pads, high temp fluid and rear sway bar and take it out for the first HPDE and if that goes well then look at the other options on the list.

[boxkita]

I'd skip the rear bar. just put on pads and high temp brake fluid. Learning to drive the car as is at the limit will teach you alot. When your tires are making a consistent squeal all the way around the turn, then look for an upgrade.

 

If you have not read Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets, you can short circuit alot of expensive learning.

 

best of luck

[olympic1]

I'd skip the rear bar. just put on pads and high temp brake fluid. Learning to drive the car as is at the limit will teach you alot. When your tires are making a consistent squeal all the way around the turn, then look for an upgrade.

 

If you have not read Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets, you can short circuit alot of expensive learning.

 

best of luck

Thanks for your thoughts. I need to try and hunt down a good street/track pad for my 2016 2.5i legacy. I'll search the forums I can't be the first person.

[DougKelly20]

Speed secrets is an AWESOME book. Definitely read that. The rear bar is only 100 bucks and 30 minutes of labor...go once without it and go once with it and I think you'll be glad you spent the money.

 

I did a 19mm RSB (conservative ish because it was my first upgrade, some go 20 or 22mm) and for me, combined with an SSD front strut bar it made a very noticeable difference in the handling. Transitions were flatter, sharper, quicker, and more predictable.

 

Then I did whiteline lowering springs. I would not recommend doing them without also upgrading your shocks unless you are OK with being a little oversprung. This also made another order of magnitude difference in smooth surface cornering but it definitely sacrificed ride comfort and is sketchy on the bumps. I'll be switching to coils eventually...

 

Mine is also axle back, knn, and protuned by Edward from XRT. I picked up about 25hp with all that. It's loud and fun and throttle response is worlds better.

Everything else I've done was cosmetic. I've autocrossed before with other cars but this one might be too heavy to be super effective, tho I'm dying to try. I took it to Watkins Glen before the springs but after the bars and it was so much fun...

To me the bars are worth it...and they are cheap and easy and a fun little project to do with the kids...they don't affect ride quality and you get the benefits on and off the track.

 

Tires and brakes should always be your first considerations, but after that...try the bars.

[DougKelly20]

Oh forgot to mention though...if you keep the WRX in the power band/on boost, it will eat my 3.6R for lunch everyday and twice on Sunday.

[olympic1]

Oh forgot to mention though...if you keep the WRX in the power band/on boost, it will eat my 3.6R for lunch everyday and twice on Sunday.

Yeah I'd imagine so. Have you been happy with a cvt WRX?

 

Speed secrets is an AWESOME book. Definitely read that. The rear bar is only 100 bucks and 30 minutes of labor...go once without it and go once with it and I think you'll be glad you spent the money.

 

Mine is also axle back, knn, and protuned by Edward from XRT. I picked up about 25hp with all that. It's loud and fun and throttle response is worlds better.

 

Tires and brakes should always be your first considerations, but after that...try the bars.

Yeah the RSB seems like an inexpensive upgrade and worth doing. Thanks for sharing the other mods. Sounds like those were enough to make it fun.

 

Looking into brakes. I may spring for new tires before the first event. Looking at the Michelin A/S 3+. It's a UHP All Season tire that seems to be top rated. I have dedicated winter tires but our spring and fall in the northern climate have lots of cold days. Hoping those would give solid track performance while also maintaining good three season usability.

[DougKelly20]

The CVT is an odd duck...it's the same TR690 in both cars. In the 3.6R it seems to work really nicely. In the wrx it depends on what you're trying to do. I think it responds the best in Sport mode. In Intelligent you need to get to about 40-50% pedal before it changes ratio and gives you a shove (by design) When you jump on it it does sometimes do a bunch of simulated shifts in rapid succession that I don't really like...

THAT SAID you can control everything using manual mode. It has been a solid unit in both cars. Reliability hasn't been an issue and I have seen VERY few users complaining about anything but the "shift" points on the forum. My gf commutes in rush hour so she had to have the cvt, and she loves it for daily driving.

[olympic1]

The CVT is an odd duck...it's the same TR690 in both cars. In the 3.6R it seems to work really nicely. In the wrx it depends on what you're trying to do. I think it responds the best in Sport mode. In Intelligent you need to get to about 40-50% pedal before it changes ratio and gives you a shove (by design) When you jump on it it does sometimes do a bunch of simulated shifts in rapid succession that I don't really like...

THAT SAID you can control everything using manual mode. It has been a solid unit in both cars. Reliability hasn't been an issue and I have seen VERY few users complaining about anything but the "shift" points on the forum. My gf commutes in rush hour so she had to have the cvt, and she loves it for daily driving.

So when on the track do you typically use the paddle shifters or have you just left it in "drive"?

[DougKelly20]

On backroads, which is the closest I've come to the track in the WRX I use the paddles

[olympic1]

On backroads, which is the closest I've come to the track in the WRX I use the paddles

What about with the 3.6r? Did you use the paddle shifters on the track to control the gears or just leave it in "drive"?

[boxkita]

Hawk hps, carbotech xp8, etc

 

If you change your pads at the track (a pain if you're not good at it), you could use an autoX pad.

 

Unless your car is in poor maintenance, I'd do the brake line upgrade. Put on a new set of oem pads. Fill up with highest octane gas you can find (92/93). Go do a day. Focus on learning the course, and learning the skills. Get an instructor to ride with you all day. You'll want to take a fast lap, but don't do a lot as all it does is burn up your brakes.

 

I did my first 3 hpde on snow tires with the roof rack still mounted. Everything stock. Don't let upgrades get in the way of going to the track. Seat time pays more dividends than any other modification.

[boxkita]

Tires on track burn up quickly. If you are investing in tires for the track buy summer tires. Ventus or direzza are good. If Michelin is your brand, Pilot Supersports are great. All-season tires are useless on track, and useless all other seasons. A good summer tire is better in the rain than nearly every all-season tire.

 

Get a cheap set of rims, mount your summer tires on them. At the track, add 5 psi over the placard. It'll help with rollover and improve wear. Be sure to reset to placard value before driving home. A cheap harbor freight air compressor that plugs into your cigarette lighter is enough. The 4$ tire gauge is good enough too.

 

Cost:

Set of summer tires $400-$1200

Set of rims $400-$1600 (Enkei rpf1)

set of brake lines $100-$300

set of brake pads $100-$500

brake bleed, line & pad install $100-$1000 (driveway vs dealer)

Engine oil (you'll want to check this before every session)

 

Extra parts

cost + install + setup/tune

 

I'd avoid any upgrades until you are hooked. Then look for a better platform. bmw 3 series, mazda miata, acura integra. All lightweight coupes with long racing history and large aftermarket. Alot of 4th gen owners spent tons of money and still gave up for something else. Likewise 5th gen owners. Not saying you can't be successful, just be aware of your platform and your investment. Enough "small" upgrades later, and you are sizably invested.

[boxkita]

Shifting? leave it in drive. On a cvt, there's no gears just the band. Let the computer sort out where to put it. If you keep your foot buried in the footwell, you'll be turning maximum rpms already.

If you can figure out left foot braking, you pitch the car into the turn and still have plenty of power. If not, a quick dab on the brakes will slow enough but not take you too much out of the powerband.

 

Until you sort out the apexes and where you need to be, shifting gets in the way.

 

Passing cars on the straight is super fun, but having them ride your bumper through turns cause you didn't master that, super sucks. Miata drivers excel at sitting in your left-hand and using hand signals.

[olympic1]

Shifting? leave it in drive.

Okay

 

All-season tires are useless on track, and useless all other seasons. A good summer tire is better in the rain than nearly every all-season tire.

 

Enough "small" upgrades later, and you are sizably invested.

I live on the east side of the state so lots of cold spring/fall weather. My thought was to try and get an ultra high performance all season tire that would do okay on the track but also allow me to use it as a street tire spring to fall. I have a separate set for our snowy winters. I was looking at the Michelin A/S 3+ because it appears to out perform some UHP summer tires and would allow for three season performance. Are you feeling that's not a good choice? If I go with a summer tire I still have fringe spring/fall where is is not ucommon to be below freezing at night. I could have a third set (summer/track, spring/fall all season, winter) but was trying to avoid that if possible.

 

Unless your car is in poor maintenance, I'd do the brake line upgrade. Put on a new set of oem pads. Fill up with highest octane gas you can find (92/93).

Okay, car is well maintained. I was trying to find a higher temp rated pad that would double for street / light track. I don't intend to change pads at the track at least initially.

 

I was planning on flushing and going with higher temp brake fluid. Do you feel the brake line upgrade to stainless is also needed?

 

Yeah moving to another platform is likely in my future. I just want to try it out first with a few basic updates to the daily before jumping into the purchase of another car that is better suited for hpde/lapping.

[boxkita]

I thought the stainless steel line upgrade was bling. Then I did my first hpde with them. It was a discernible difference, not omg great just hmm braking is a little better.

 

On track, the closer to a slick (no tread blocks) you can get the better the tires will last. An all season has blocky tread blocks on the edge. Under side loads(cornering), these wear faster and poorly (it's called chunking). Once your tire chunks, your tread warranty is expired. An all-season tire is trying to be alot of things, adding track tire to the mix is too much.

 

Id look for the highest wet performance summer tire you can afford. The snow performance will be better. Snow, not ice. One of the bonuses of developing your track skills is it improves your street skills too. The other option is buying the cheapest set of all seasons you can find, as you'll tear them up anyways. I used these: https://www.federaltire.com/en/products_detail.php?class=UHP&products_detail_sn=8 . Got them on sale for 90$/tire.

 

brake pads. Id look for street performance pads. Track pads are very harsh and require high heat to work effectively. Until they are warm, you essentially have no brakes. Also track oriented pads produce lots of dust, which is a health hazard when removing (wear a mask, and soak the wheels with water before brushing). Your car has a feature that pulls the pad away from the disk slightly which improves gas mileage however the pads don't stay hot, which means you'll have sub-optimal braking nearly all the time. A ceramic pad might be a good option. Still I'd put on stock pads the first day and limit your attempts to pass everyone.

Edited June 25, 2020 by boxkita

[DougKelly20]

Meh...the cvt isn't perfect. Theoretically it's supposed to pick the best ratio possible. In practice it's an algorithm not a mind reader. The 3.6R does less hunting than the wrx. But I totally get his point, you wanna focus on your lines and braking the first few times out...powerband stuff will come later. Leave it in auto for now.

[olympic1]

Id look for the highest wet performance summer tire you can afford. The other option is buying the cheapest set of all seasons you can find, as you'll tear them up anyways. I used these: https://www.federaltire.com/en/products_detail.php?class=UHP&products_detail_sn=8 . Got them on sale for 90$/tire.

 

brake pads. Id look for street performance pads. Still I'd put on stock pads the first day and limit your attempts to pass everyone.

Okay thanks for the tire and brake info.

 

Meh...the cvt isn't perfect. Theoretically it's supposed to pick the best ratio possible. In practice it's an algorithm not a mind reader. The 3.6R does less hunting than the wrx. But I totally get his point, you wanna focus on your lines and braking the first few times out...powerband stuff will come later. Leave it in auto for now.

Auto it is.