Fiatz79 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 Agreed.. The Legacy was not designed as a Sport Sedan. Great value for what it is. (80% of a BMW 5 for 1/3 of the price). ;-) I am impressed with your knowledge on the issue but I have a question: Does anyone actually competitively track their Subaru Legacy? This is a real question. I had no idea that people would be so concerned with the steering and alignment issues on a garden variety family sedan. If I hadn't encountered this thread it would never have occurred to me to worry about the steering. The car just works. Lighting Mods Low Beams: D4S - OSRAM XENARC 66440 CBI HID BULBS Highbeam/DRL: 9005 - OSRAM NIGHT BREAKER UNLIMITED 9005NBUHCB BULBS Fog: H11 - OSRAM NIGHT BREAKER UNLIMITED 64211NBU-01B BULBS Subaru 20mm RSB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyR Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 Agreed.. The Legacy was not designed as a Sport Sedan. Great value for what it is. (80% of a BMW 5 for 1/3 of the price). ;-) Well, just over half the price. But still a lot less expensive and great value for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 lol I would hardly call the Legacy a "cushy" riding car, nice riding yes, cushy, no... you want to know what a cushy ride is go get in an older 80's luxo barge and then drive the legacy back to back...the difference in handling/ride comfort is staggering to say the least. The Legacy has (with 17" rims a 50 series tire and that thing does little to nothing to aide in soaking up road bumps. On the plus side it will out handle those old 80's cars with ease... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urdrwho Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 How true. Someone in my family owned a Lincoln from the late 80's and it was like riding the swells in the ocean and the hood was as long as a boat. To me the outback is not cushy but neither is it a hard / tight suspension like some sports cars. I might like the feeling supplied by a fatter sway bar. lol I would hardly call the Legacy a "cushy" riding car, nice riding yes, cushy, no... you want to know what a cushy ride is go get in an older 80's luxo barge . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisvegas Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 The Legacy has (with 17" rims a 50 series tire and that thing does little to nothing to aide in soaking up road bumps. You have touched on something that really annoys me. Low profile tires are a joke in my opinion. The argument of course is that low profile tires offer better handling for those drivers who choose to take corners at higher speeds, .... but there are many other drivers who are more sensible, and don't see the need to "show off" at every corner they come to. Lower profile tires and bigger wheels are increasingly becoming standard on the higher trim levels of vehicle models. I would love to see manufacturers offer them as an "option" rather than as standard ... or offer the "bigger tires" as the option for those of us drivers who don't use the streets as a race track, and would rather have a better ride rather than having their vehicles supported by "rubber bands." To those on the forum who enjoy "spirited driving" I say good luck to you, and you have the right to do whatever tickles your fancy, .... all I am saying is there should be more options available for those drivers who are a little bit more "conservative." http://bestride.com/news/technology/are-low-profile-tires-ruining-your-ride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyR Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I think it's mostly a styling issue and car makers are simply responding to the demand. People generally prefer the low profile tires because they think they look better. I have 20" RFTs on my other car and the car handles well and has a smooth and quiet ride. If the suspension is tuned for low profile tires there isn't a problem. Btw, I haven't had a moving violation in the past 30 years so fast driving certainly isn't my motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisvegas Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I think it's mostly a styling issue and car makers are simply responding to the demand. People generally prefer the low profile tires because they think they look better. That's exactly what has happened !!! And my point is that the car makers have put "the styling issue" above the comfort of the ride. I agree that they can tune the suspension to accommodate low profile tires to a certain degree, but I don't think anyone can really argue that lower profile tires on bigger wheels don't result in a harsher ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gathermewool Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I think it's mostly a styling issue and car makers are simply responding to the demand. People generally prefer the low profile tires because they think they look better. I have 20" RFTs on my other car and the car handles well and has a smooth and quiet ride. If the suspension is tuned for low profile tires there isn't a problem. Btw, I haven't had a moving violation in the past 30 years so fast driving certainly isn't my motivation. Not sure what the 20" RFT has to do with wanting to drive fast. Your 20" wheel and RFT combo is probably heavier than my 18" BBS and DWS combo. The weight of the wheel/tire doesn't have anything to do with one's lead foot, either. Or did I miss your point? Maybe your 20" wheel is super light compared to is respective rubber? '15 FB25 Magnatec 0W-20 + FU filter (70,517 miles) RSB, Fr. Strut Bar, Tint, STI BBS, LED er'where Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyR Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I don't have 20" RFTs because I want to drive fast. I was responding to Brisvegas' post... You have touched on something that really annoys me. Low profile tires are a joke in my opinion. The argument of course is that low profile tires offer better handling for those drivers who choose to take corners at higher speeds, .... but there are many other drivers who are more sensible, and don't see the need to "show off" at every corner they come to... To those on the forum who enjoy "spirited driving" I say good luck to you, and you have the right to do whatever tickles your fancy, .... all I am saying is there should be more options available for those drivers who are a little bit more "conservative." http://bestride.com/news/technology/are-low-profile-tires-ruining-your-ride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 low profile tires absolutely have an affect on how the car handles on broken up roads...one of the jobs of a tire's side wall is to take the harshness out of the ride. when there is less side wall to absorb the shocks, more of it is transmitted into the cabin... Go drive a car with 70 series on it and then immediately drive a car with 50 series on same broken road and tell me they both ride the same in terms of smoothness on smooth even roads the newer cars ride fine but as soon as you get into uneven/broken up roads everyone complains about ride harshness as the tires have less ability to soak up the bumps before they are transmitted into the suspension which sends it into the unit body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyR Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 I'm sure if you put low profile tires on a car that isn't designed for them it would have a harsher ride but I wouldn't recommend doing it for that reason. If the car is designed for them and the suspension is properly tuned it really isn't a problem unless you're hitting huge potholes at high speed. In that case you're going to be in trouble with any tire but the low profile tires are more prone to harshness and even damage in such conditions. There are trade-offs for sure but I'm happy with mine. I'm also happy with the 18" wheels on my Legacy. I don't think these would be called low profile anymore although they would have seen as such only a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisvegas Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 If the car is designed for them and the suspension is properly tuned it really isn't a problem Bobby, you might be missing my point mate. I agree that the engineers can do a good job designing and tuning the suspension to accommodate OEM low profile tires in an attempt to keep harshness to a satisfactory level, while at the same time keeping the car "looking cool." And if the buyer of the car drove on great roads most of the time, then probably he would think the ride quality was great. But in the real world some roads are crap, and I think it is beyond dispute that lower profile tires will feel the road imperfections so much more than tires with a higher profile. You mentioned that you are happy with your 18" wheels and that you don't think that the tires would be referred to as "low profile" these days ...... that's because it's now the accepted fashion, and people get used to it and think that's "normal". Car designers are like all other designers of consumable items .... they design something new, then hope to convince (or suck in) the buying public that it's great, then after they have this captive audience the item becomes the accepted norm. All I'm saying is that today's cars might handle better with the latest suspension technology and lower profile tires, and most drivers seem happy with those results .... but there cannot be an argument made that these tires give a more comfortable ride than tires with a higher sidewall, or that the engineers and designers haven't sacrifised comfort for road handling and "coolness." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyR Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 No, I'm not missing your point. Other things being equal a smaller wheel with bigger tires means a smoother ride. That's not in dispute. However, I don't agree that the industry has sucked in consumers on this issue or that comfort has been sacrificed. I think they're just responding to demand. No one wants 14 or 15 inch wheels anymore even if they do ride better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisvegas Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 No, I'm not missing your point. Other things being equal a smaller wheel with bigger tires means a smoother ride. That's not in dispute. However, I don't agree that the industry has sucked in consumers on this issue or that comfort has been sacrificed. I think they're just responding to demand. No one wants 14 or 15 inch wheels anymore even if they do ride better. You might be right, but I'm not 100% sure that "no one wants smaller wheels even if they do ride better" ... sorry to repeat myself again .... but how do we know that, if smaller wheels are never on the designers drawing board, which means no one ever gets to test your theory. We are probably going around in circles on this Bobby, but I appreciate your input on this thread ... and I guess we will have to agree to disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornichoe Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 You might be right, but I'm not 100% sure that "no one wants smaller wheels even if they do ride better" I'd say there are a couple of things in play here. As our cars got more powerful and heavier, there is a need to have bigger brakes. You cannot fit a 320mm rotor in the wheel space of a say 13 inch wheel. Till we have a drastic design change in disc brake technology like having dual 3-piston calipers at each wheel, the wheels of newer cars are not going to get smaller. They can obviously choose to put on a 225/70 18 tire on, but that would look ugly on a sedan. And you'd expect that in the last 20 years as technology got better, cars got better, tolerances got smaller; that the quality of our roads would improve. But unfortunately that has only gone down hill with pot holes the size of swimming pools these days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisvegas Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 As our cars got more powerful and heavier, there is a need to have bigger brakes. Yes, I agree that brakes are certainly a factor in wheel sizes ..... although I think there is sometimes a bit of "overkill" in that area as well. Some people love to see those brembos, and the bigger the better. In regards to the weight question, do you think in the last few years that cars have got more powerful and heavier? I would have thought that the trend has been for smaller style turbo engines, and the use of aluminium and advanced high strength steel in the car bodies would mean vehicles are becoming lighter? But the bottom line is I'm fighting a losing battle because I've learn't you can't fight fashion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisvegas Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 However, I don't agree that the industry has sucked in consumers on this issue or that comfort has been sacrificed. I think they're just responding to demand. No one wants 14 or 15 inch wheels anymore even if they do ride better. Bobby, just when I want to drop this "pet peeve" of mine, you get me going again In the following article there are a few statements that I agree with, and you probably wont ....( you obviously have more trust in car designers than me ) " Complaints are on the rise about the harsh ride and tyre noise in cars .. now low-profile tyres are shaping up as culprits ..." " .. The designers and marketers have suckered too many people into buying big wheels, claiming they look better and give more grip in corners. That’s not the full story. A lower-profile tyre can improve a car’s handling but not on the roads where most of us drive. They need a smooth, consistent surface and that’s rare on country roads. ..." " .. Designers save their best work for the bigger rims, deliberately making any basic alloy look like it belongs on a poverty-pack car. ..." " .. “Of course the bigger wheels will look better. We style them so people will spend more on their cars. If we did the best design for the smallest wheel there would be no incentive to move up the range.” https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-advice/big-wheels-and-low-profile-tyres-are-not-always-better-37394 Mate, I concede defeat on the issue, because I realise that I'm stuck with bigger wheels and smaller tires whichever way I go with my next car ..... but I just won't like it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyR Posted August 27, 2018 Share Posted August 27, 2018 Hmm. How did I get you going again? I didn't respond to your last post which appeared to close the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brisvegas Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Hmm. How did I get you going again? I didn't respond to your last post which appeared to close the discussion. Sorry ... In reality I probably "got going again" under my own steam ... I have appreciated your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midas Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 The 1968 Cadillac Sedan de Ville weighs over 1000 pounds more than the Legacy. And it came with 15 inch wheels. And, of course, it rode like a Cadillac (and handled like a yacht). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beamercub Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 I completely agree. The car is a MESs on the highway. I have been afraid of getting pulled over for being a suspected OUI. I have done the RSB upgrade. Wheel bearings and front rotors and pads. It's still literally DEAD on center. DEAD. I'm gonna try the 27 front 25 rear today. This issue needs some attention because as the tires wear it gets WORSE. IM AT 47k and I regret this car. I want to love it. I just want to be able to drive it without white knuckles. The 20mm RSB stabilizes suspension motions on the highway, but it for sure doesn't correct its inherent twitchiness. I've spent the last few months really paying attention, to see if I can pin-point the issue. I've found nothing concrete; however, I have refined how I would describe steering for my 2015 Legacy 2.5i: It seems to be rubbery/dead on-center. With any input, there is a lag and then exaggerated response in whichever direction. Once that steering direction is input, however, it seems relatively stable. By this, I mean that the first degree from center of steering will provide a delayed response, and then, when further steering is input, the response is more than for the first degree. This results in a lot of on-center correction and a bit of light wandering on the highway, regardless of conditions, but a smooth-steering vehicle for any other angles, such as gradual bends or sharper turns. I don't know if this affects only a specific number of Legacy vehicles or if some of you truly don't feel what we feel, even if we are experiencing the same steering response. Either way, there are enough of us complaining about it for it to be more than coincidence. It would be interesting to note the kind of vehicle each of us tends to drive, so we can get a background on what we're all basing our opinions of response on. In other words, someone who has only driven large family vehicles (e.g., min-vans, large SUV's, etc.) will have a different range of normal than someone who is coming from many previous sports cars. My past few vehicles that I've driven long-term: 1. '08 Civic LX: Not very sporty, but the steering was pretty tight. It was pretty lively on-center and its response was pretty linear. It wasn't as mechanical as my wife's previous '04 Civic LX, but not so far removed from the road that it felt sedated. 2. '14 FXT: Amedium-sized CUV, with but with reasonably tight handling for its size and wagon shape. It's by no means a sports car, but it handles well and would be a better highway commuter if it wasn't compromised by its height and shape, which lends itself to more motion from wind and larger vehicles. 3. '08 STI: Very sporty, very responsive, but also without a good on-center feel, if I'm being honest. It handled best in corners and was not a very comfortable highway cruiser by any metric! Even though it had hydraulic steering, it was not very well-suited for daily driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda_One Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 Absolutely no issues with either Subaru's. Laughing at oneself and with others is good for the Soul![emoji2] Laughing at Oneself and with Other is good for the Soul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieN8 Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 It does seem to wander a little, compared to our 2018 Crosstrek. I am used to it now, so no biggie for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XT-sub Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 ... It's still literally DEAD on center. DEAD. This made a big difference to my Liberty. It would be the first change I would make to any Subaru that has the steering rubber dampener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beamercub Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Installed the steering dampener. No more slop, and I'm able to drive in a straight line.. No more pinball on the highway. Insane how much slop and numbness the car had before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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