Post Intercooler IAT Testing

[VespaGTS]

I am also quite interested in seeing the ge results. I might just stay with stock.

[hichamaziz]

thank you all members for diagram

[jvick94]

Wow this makes me feel a little better about fixing/"bulletproofing" my stock intercooler rather than going aftermarket, those efficiency numbers look impressive! I am interested to see how other aftermarket options stack up though.

[grovlet]

Can't wait to see Aftermarket Testing - I was sold on GrimmSpeed thanks to their real world testing (and knowing they are a topnotch company with reputable feedback)

 

http://blog.grimmspeed.com/2015-subaru-wrx-top-mount-intercooler-performance-testing/

 

Would really be nice to see their data validated - although it might be a different - not that I think it's bad- but confirmation/validation is always good to have:cool:

 

AND FYI - it's also nice to know that factory TMIC is not terrible - just not truly designed to hold up to 20 PSI boost numbers for long term...

[utc_pyro]

Thanks. I'm hesitant to cut a hole in my grimmspeed outlet hose.

 

 

 

 

Seems to work just fine. The Grimmspeed cobra hose is a pain to cut through though, they chose the high spec stuff with lots of reinforcing fibers. AB testing between Grimmspeed and AVO coming soon.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[covertrussian]

You got a Grimspeed IC?!?!?!

 

Also what silicon port tap is that? Been wanting to get one myself.

[utc_pyro]

You got a Grimspeed IC?!?!?!

 

I made some rather poor financial decisions last month before realizing how much money I owed the IRS. It's heat shielded, plumbed for meth injection, and plumbed with post IC reference port for the MBC portion of the hybrid setup. Hopefully going in this week.

 

 

Ever sence getting my car back a year an a half ago I've been trying to chase down why I'm having to run stupid low timing. Actually looking at the data from the post IC sensor seems to point to the culprit.

 

Real world data is the best marketing material in the world as far as I'm concerned. Xtea's Grimmspeed IC is winning so far (though with a very diffrent setup) so if I had to do something figured I'd try the most promising.

 

Maybe Underdog will post his STI TMIC data and make me regret my choice though

 

Also what silicon port tap is that? Been wanting to get one myself.

 

http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_260&products_id=304

 

It's the one I mentioned earlier in the thread. It's sold as a meth injector bung, but the AEM IAT sensor I'm using should also work with it.

[covertrussian]

I made some rather poor financial decisions last month before realizing how much money I owed the IRS. It's heat shielded, plumbed for meth injection, and plumbed with post IC reference port for the MBC portion of the hybrid setup. Hopefully going in this week.

 

[ATTACH]263151[/ATTACH]

 

We all do it for the love modding cars, I'm glad you took one for the team, for science!

 

Ever sence getting my car back a year an a half ago I've been trying to chase down why I'm having to run stupid low timing. Actually looking at the data from the post IC sensor seems to point to the culprit.

 

Real world data is the best marketing material in the world as far as I'm concerned. Xtea's Grimmspeed IC is winning so far (though with a very diffrent setup) so if I had to do something figured I'd try the most promising.

 

That's a real valid point, something I'll have to remember to tell to people if they wonder why they have to pull so much timing to avoid knock.

 

Something to consider about both GrimmSpeed's and Xtea's logs is, they were done way below 32F. I'm pretty excited to see the numbers you get at more moderate temperatures like 50's. Send me the logs and I'll build you the graphs .

 

Maybe Underdog will post his STI TMIC data and make me regret my choice though

 

+1 to this, I'm half tempted to try out my spare WRX TMIC, could swap to WRX manifold while doing TGV's

 

http://www.usrallyteam.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_260&products_id=304

 

It's the one I mentioned earlier in the thread. It's sold as a meth injector bung, but the AEM IAT sensor I'm using should also work with it.

 

I thought you did too, but quick glance didn't find it. I'm tempted to try Silicone Port System, but would need adapters.

[utc_pyro]

Grimmspeed intercooler was installed over the weekend, so now we can compare intercoolers on an identical setup. Only non controlled for change was the undertray, everything else (including temps) was the same as the AVO testing. MAF voltage was ever the same, 4.76v max.

 

Mods

Turbo: BNR Evo 3 16g

Boost: 14.5psi

Intake: Stock w/Perrin Inlet

Intercooler: Grimmspeed TMIC

Exhaust: Tomei ELH, CNT Catted DP, Ividia Q300 catback

Undertray: Yes - Beatrush + H6 side covers

Shielding: Lava Turbo Blanket + Grimmspeed Turbo Heat Shield + Lava up/downpipe wrap + DEI Refletive Gold on TMIC

Areo: $12 eBay special 9" fan under IC - verified no effect during pulls, was put in to reduce heat soak in low speed urban traffic.

 

 

 

2nd Gear Solo Pull

Ambient Temp: 52F

Pre-Turbo IAT: 59F

Post IC Start IAT: 63.5F

Post IC Redline IAT: 60.8

Post IC IAT Rise: -2.7F

Post IC IAT Over Ambient: 8.8F

 

 

 

3rd Gear Solo Pull

Ambient Temp: 53F

Pre-Turbo IAT: 57F

Post IC Start IAT: 63.5F

Post IC Redline IAT: 71.6F

Post IC IAT Rise: 8.1F

Post IC IAT Over Ambient: 20.4F

 

 

Notice how the 3rd gear is long enough to get past the dip down and then it starts rising again.

 

 

Stress Test

Ambient Temp: 52F

Pre-Turbo IAT: 59F

Post IC Start IAT: 68.0F

Post IC Highest IAT: 92.3F

Post IC IAT Rise: 24.3F

Post IC IAT Over Ambient: 40.3F

 

 

Starts at 68f, Dips down to 60.8F and is at 61.7F by end of first pull, end of 2nd pull 68F, 3rd 76.1F, 4th 83.3F, 5th 91.4F

 

On all of these you can see the temperature actually DROPS at the beginning. I suspect this is related to the IAT sensor heatsoaking, and not real. Once I get my FLIR camera back from my coworker I'll investigate this more.

 

Thank again Covertrussian for graphing these and processing the data.

[rhino6303]

I just purchased an aem 1/8 NPT iat sensor, the silicone port and connectors for the maf, etc.

 

Here's my plan:

1. Connect OEM iat wires to aem sensor just before throttle plate.

2. Connect OEM egt wires to OEM iat sensor.

3. Change scaling and such in my tune.

 

Thoughts?

[covertrussian]

OEM EGT input is not precise enough (it's meant to be used in 10F increments instead of 1f), also there is code that limits the read ranges and also throws non-code CEL's. Like with my EGT wired IAT sensor being post intercooler, with my current scaling it throws a CEL at ~150F, but when you check the code there is nothing stored.

[rhino6303]

OEM EGT input is not precise enough (it's meant to be used in 10F increments instead of 1f), also there is code that limits the read ranges and also throws non-code CEL's. Like with my EGT wired IAT sensor being post intercooler, with my current scaling it throws a CEL at 120F, but when you check the code there is nothing stored.

Thanks for the input. I thought it was possible based on what utc_pyro has said before. Here is a post:

 

Using the MAF temperature sensor is kind of useless if you're speed density. You really need to know the post intercooler air temperature to calculate your charge accurately.

 

On '05-'06 cars rewiring the MAF IAT to your EGT input can give useful logging data through, and leaving the MAF in place can make it easier to verify your VE table or do a hybrid MAF/SD tune like the Group N cars ran.

[covertrussian]

Weird, utc_pyro is the one that old me the resolution is bad on EGT sensor. Basically EGT input is programmed to measure temps in 100's of degrees instead of 1's. The floor on EGT gauge's reading is about 390F, it wont read any values below that. Thus we have to multiply the voltage to degrees tables by 10-13x to get it to read low enough, but even then it wont read below 33F for me.

[utc_pyro]

He's using his post IAT sensor for speed density, thus wiring it to the OEM IAT input to use that logic. Then he's wiring the OEM MAF IAT sensor to the EGT input like we were so he can log pre-turbo IAT. On that one he can play scaling games like we were, because it's for information only.

 

Should work just fine.

 

Flexconverter can make a harness to do this more or less plug and play:

[covertrussian]

Ok that makes more sense, for some reason didn't wanna click in my head at first.

[rhino6303]

I received everything to wire in an adapter and switch my iat sensor (aem sensor) to post intercooler (grimmspeed) and use existing maf iat for the egt input.

 

Now utc_pyro is making me think of adding in a 10" fan for low speed/traffic situations. Would it be necessary to create a pwm controller for this fan or will it survive just using a switch and relay? I was thinking of wiring it to my jdm folding mirror switch since I don't have folding mirrors.

 

Thoughts?

[utc_pyro]

Now utc_pyro is making me think of adding in a 10" fan for low speed/traffic situations. Would it be necessary to create a pwm controller for this fan or will it survive just using a switch and relay? I was thinking of wiring it to my jdm folding mirror switch since I don't have folding mirrors.

 

Thoughts?

 

I have a 9" fan in there for testing. It already overhangs the bottom of the IC though, so not sure if you could cram a 10" in there. A 7.5"-8" fan is actually the best fit.

 

Last year I did some testing on our hood scoop.

 

Based on those findings, the Grimmspeed IC is actually a little bigger than optimal for our scoop size. 150in^2 IC area vs 33in^2 scoop area, where as optimally you'd have at least a 38in^2 scoop. The scoop is ~85% efficient in converting it's frontal area to IC flow though, so it nets something like 17.2 cfm scoop flow to mph. You can see by that you really need a screamer of the fan if you're going to cover the whole thing and not restrict flow at highway speed. On WRC cars they only put a fan on the hot side of the IC, and let the other half free flow.

 

 

As I rarely get over 60mph, I ended up going with two Spal VA14-AP11/C-34A fans that will cover ~66% of the core. At full blast, these shouldn't become a restriction until ~75mph in exchange for having the same flow when stopped as driving 45mph. Maradyne M083K fans would be another good option, the curved blades and higher power motor will give a slightly higher speed (80mph) before becoming restrictive in exchange for slightly less flow when stopped (40mph equivalent).

 

There is a magical solution for fan control though, and it's really cheap on ebay ($30): A Mercedes/Seimens radiator fan controller. Information here

 

You want to use the Mercadies variant because it has an "IG" input. You can use that as your trigger, and tie it to your folding mirror switch. Then if you decide you want speed control later you can just feed it a PWM signal as well.

 

Here is where I was bench testing mine

 

This is getting a little off topic though. I'll start another post about this next week when I install everything and we can discuss it more there.

[covertrussian]

I feel like the fan blades and shroud would block a bit too much of airflow (even if under it). Do you wanna do a fan on and fan removed logs? I'll graph them.

 

Also driving around in the 80F post IC temps are ~85 when moving and get as hot as pre-maf IAT when standing still, which instantly falls to ~85 when you start moving. Temp rise is still only 13-15* per pull too, thus I'm not seeing any real benefits in using the fan personally.